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Federal Minimum Wage and Requiring Health Care -- What's the difference
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Posted on 03/22/2010 7:23:47 AM PDT by indianyogi

Someone asked a question: if government can set the mandated minimum wage, why can't they require us to buy health insurance?

Freepers thoughts!


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism
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1 posted on 03/22/2010 7:23:47 AM PDT by indianyogi
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To: indianyogi

Why should they do either?


2 posted on 03/22/2010 7:25:19 AM PDT by bgill (The framers of the US Constitution established an entire federal government in 18 pages.)
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To: indianyogi

I think the stronger argument is that they demand we buy into social security and medicare, why not healthcare.


3 posted on 03/22/2010 7:25:46 AM PDT by DonaldC (A nation cannot stand in the absence of religious principle.)
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To: indianyogi

Does the federal government require you to work? And if you don’t work do you have to pay a fine/tax or go to jail?


4 posted on 03/22/2010 7:26:38 AM PDT by ConjunctionJunction (LOLcat sez: "ObamaCare: Do Not Want!")
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To: indianyogi

Neither are mentioned in the Constitution, so, they should BOTH be STATE Issues, having NOTHING to do with the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.


5 posted on 03/22/2010 7:26:47 AM PDT by gwilhelm56 (Islam is a Political System DISGUISED as a RELIGION!)
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To: indianyogi
I think if you calc the minimum wage for 40 hours, you'll come up with slightly more than 133% of the Federal Poverty level and wind up paying 3% of your income.

Easy come, easy go...

6 posted on 03/22/2010 7:26:59 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (What)
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To: indianyogi

If you CHOOSE to employ others, the government has certain requirements.

You have no CHOICE when it comes to national healthcare. If you exist, you must subscribe to the service.

Same comparison can be made with paying FICA, or property taxes. These are conditions imposed on you because you CHOOSE to work or own property. This socialist bill is imposed on you without your choice.


7 posted on 03/22/2010 7:27:41 AM PDT by ConservativeWarrior (In last year's nests, there are no birds this year.)
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To: indianyogi

the mandate should have been challenged but i am guessing that it may be that the fed government cant force you to purchase or fine you for not purchasing an item.
my questions is “isnt liability insurance on your car a mandated insurance”....I also think that since insurance is regulated state by state...that it is a states rights issue so fed healthcare is not constitutional. of course most of what gov does is not


8 posted on 03/22/2010 7:27:49 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: indianyogi

One is a purely economic matter, a wage, imposed upon employers. The other is not a purely economic matter, and involves the requirement to purchase a product, imposed upon individuals. The courts may treat thses differently.


9 posted on 03/22/2010 7:27:54 AM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: indianyogi
Well, first I reject the premise of the minimum wage.
It is a bad idea, economical, but it is also bad law.

However, if we must accept the minimum wage, we still must see the difference between that and what we face now.

The minimum wage does not require any contract with anyone, for labor.

Health Care “reform” does require a contract, which is not Constitutional.

10 posted on 03/22/2010 7:27:55 AM PDT by Kansas58
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To: indianyogi

Employers aren’t required to hire (yet) employees at minimum or any other wage. People will be required to buy Obamacare health insurance.


11 posted on 03/22/2010 7:28:22 AM PDT by Will88
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To: indianyogi

I am not forced to hire someone to then pay them what ever the minimum wage is. But as an “individual” I am being forced to purchase a product.


12 posted on 03/22/2010 7:28:30 AM PDT by GregNH (Re-Elect "No Body")
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To: indianyogi

I think a strong ruling on the 10th Amendment could have wide reaching implications. Also, minimum wage is state legislation not Federal legislation


13 posted on 03/22/2010 7:28:32 AM PDT by Sarah-bot (The bloom is off the fart blossum)
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To: GregNH

You make a good point


14 posted on 03/22/2010 7:29:26 AM PDT by Sarah-bot (The bloom is off the fart blossum)
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To: ConjunctionJunction

Require us to work? Well, yeah, after they set up the Gulags for the people who don’t pay fines, we will all be provided with work.


15 posted on 03/22/2010 7:29:29 AM PDT by MrChips (MrChips)
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To: DonaldC
The vote was much different for Medicare....

When it started, it cost $3 for Part B....equal to about one hour pay.

Now Part B costs $96 a month. Know anyone who makes $96 an hour??

16 posted on 03/22/2010 7:29:50 AM PDT by Sacajaweau (What)
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To: DonaldC
Both are taxes, and are not a mandate to buy something from a private entity, as it is argued the helathcare bill does with insurance. However, I think the way they're going to get around it is not to impose a fine for not buying health insurance, but rather offer a tax credit for doing so.
17 posted on 03/22/2010 7:30:42 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: ConservativeWarrior

Very true, but even if it were struck down I think they could get around it quite easily: impose a tax on everyone and then give an equal tax credit only to those who buy the approved insurance.

The feds give out tax credits on specific purchases all the time.


18 posted on 03/22/2010 7:31:08 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: SoCal Pubbie

Beat me to it.


19 posted on 03/22/2010 7:31:49 AM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: MrChips

Didn’t Michelle say something to the effect of Barack will require everyone to work? Not an exact quote, but something similar.

Anyways, I was just trying to point out that the question in the OP is a strawman argument.


20 posted on 03/22/2010 7:31:55 AM PDT by ConjunctionJunction (LOLcat sez: "ObamaCare: Do Not Want!")
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To: indianyogi
The Federal Minimum wage covers businesses doing business in more the one state. It is Interstate Commerce.

In state Commerce is regulated by state regulations. Health Care cannot be bought across state lines there for it is IN STATE, not INTERSTATE commerce.

21 posted on 03/22/2010 7:33:40 AM PDT by MNJohnnie ("The trouble with socialism is that eventually you run out of other peoples' money" Lady Thatcher)
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To: indianyogi
In order for the minimum wage to appply, you have to work for someone. It doesn't apply if you are self-employed or don't work.

Just being a resident of this country means that you must purchase health insurance or be covered by it. Big difference. It is unprecedented.

22 posted on 03/22/2010 7:33:46 AM PDT by kabar
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To: indianyogi

People have the right to not accept jobs or to accept them based on the pay. You are NOT forced to work at minimum wage. You ARE forced to buy insurance (now).


23 posted on 03/22/2010 7:33:47 AM PDT by marstegreg
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To: indianyogi

Employment is a commercial activity. Not buying or having health insurance is not a commercial activity.


24 posted on 03/22/2010 7:37:04 AM PDT by grumpygresh (Democrats delenda est)
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To: indianyogi
The government can do anything it wants by any means necessary as can the people. We institute a compact between the people and the government to lay the ground work for how the people should be governed. Our government has been breaking those initial rules for a very long time. So to think that they have to follow the rules is foolish. They only have to if someone makes them. That is why we have the 1st and 2nd Amendments. That is not a an emotional cry for blood but a simple fact. They will in fact do whatever they want or think they can get away with until someone holds them accountable. I am beginning to doubt if an election can do that. It just seems to me that our direction is being pushed by a much greater force than just our elected representatives.
25 posted on 03/22/2010 7:38:25 AM PDT by Archon of the East (Universal Executive Power of the Law of Nature)
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To: ConjunctionJunction
Good point, if you don't work do you still get free health care? Well of course. For those of us who do work and can afford health insurance, we may have less choice and at a higher cost but for those marginally employed, just making it at Mikey D's or wherever, the additional cost of insurance may be enough make them decide to stay home and join a soon to be growing economic underground. When businesses get the choice between an 8% payroll fine or providing expensive insurance, workers are going to get the shaft big time and if the unions think they are immune they have another think coming. Why would anyone hire a union worker and pay for these heath care plans when they can go overseas? Not to mention the consumers who used to buy union made products aren't going to have as much money. That's why the unions are so active in organizing health care workers now. That's where all the money is going to go.
26 posted on 03/22/2010 7:39:00 AM PDT by dblshot (Insanity - electing the same people over and over and expecting different results.)
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To: 9YearLurker

Makes you wonder if they came up with the mandate with the intent of it being struck down as unconsitutional later. Their goal is to bankrupt the health care insurance industry. Seems to me this would do it. Require health insurance companies to accept everyone with preexisting conditions, those people wait until they get sick to buy health insurance, premiums go through the roof, people cry out to the government for “help”. And then we get single-payer.


27 posted on 03/22/2010 7:39:35 AM PDT by ConjunctionJunction (LOLcat sez: "ObamaCare: Do Not Want!")
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To: indianyogi

Simple, I’m not REQUIRED to hire anybody nor start a business.


28 posted on 03/22/2010 7:40:31 AM PDT by Clock King (There's no way to fix D.C.)
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To: gwilhelm56

Actually, until the late thirties, your view was the dominant view of the rights of the states vs. the feds. Then eventually FDR got enough justices on the court to essentially decide that the commerce clause empowered the federal government to do anything it damn well pleases. It has become the classic case of an exception swallowing the rule.


29 posted on 03/22/2010 7:41:56 AM PDT by Spartan79
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To: indianyogi

Well WHEN this is ruled UNCONSTITUTIONAL, it will take care of that question.


30 posted on 03/22/2010 7:42:49 AM PDT by Marty62 ( Marty60)
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To: DonaldC

I thought with SS and medicare they demand you pay in, but don’t demand to receive bene’s


31 posted on 03/22/2010 7:44:13 AM PDT by Rippin
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To: ConjunctionJunction
Didn’t Michelle say something to the effect of Barack will require everyone to work?

Why not? After all, everyone know that "Work Makes Free".

32 posted on 03/22/2010 7:44:47 AM PDT by bIlluminati (Don't just hope for change, work for change in 2010.)
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To: indianyogi

NOBODY can force you to WORK!


33 posted on 03/22/2010 7:45:04 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops, and vote out the RINOS)
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Comment #34 Removed by Moderator

To: bgill

The “miniumum wage” is not Constitutional either.


35 posted on 03/22/2010 7:49:10 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: indianyogi

.
Can they continue creating anti-Constitutional abominations?

Who’s going to stop them?


36 posted on 03/22/2010 7:49:17 AM PDT by Touch Not the Cat (Where is the light? Wonder if it's weeping somewhere...)
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To: dalebert

Liability insurance is just that,liability. One job govt does have is to protect an individual from the illegal or reckless acts of another. Auto insurance does that. Unlike our POTUS anyone who went to Drivers Ed knows you must have insurance to compensate for damage,injury,death caused by your vehicle. No one is required to have insurance to pay for damage to their vehicle.(Collision).


37 posted on 03/22/2010 7:52:27 AM PDT by xkaydet65 (Never compromise with evil! Even in the face of Armageddon!! Rorshach)
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To: xkaydet65

thanks


38 posted on 03/22/2010 7:57:51 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: indianyogi

While I am not sure the Federal minimum wage is constitutional, you could at least make an argument for Federal authority to implement it under the interstate commerce clause.

An individual health insurance mandate is not regulating commerce, but effectively compelling all Americans to engage in a particular type of commerce. One might argue that authority to impose an employer mandate could be justified the by ICC, (much like the minimum wage) but certainly not an individual one.

If every American is required to buy health insurance, what would stop the Federal government from requiring Americans to purchase any number of other things, such as an HDTV, a cell phone, or some totally useless and very expensive widget available only from a company controlled by members of congress?

Some Rebublican ought to propose a law mandating that every American buy a gun, or a bust of Ronald Reagan, or a copy of the Constitution, or something else offensive to Liberals. When the the Liberals cry “You have no right to force us to buy that!”, the response would be, “Well you had no right to force us to buy health insurance, but you did it anyway.”


39 posted on 03/22/2010 8:03:42 AM PDT by Above My Pay Grade
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To: indianyogi
I think the minimum wage violates the First Amendment. Years ago, there was a radio station with volunteers working the board and doing various things. The labor dept called this activity illegal because the volunteers weren't being paid the minimum wage. The First Amendment guarantees freedom of association and I believe that the minimum wage laws violate this.
40 posted on 03/22/2010 8:04:27 AM PDT by Maurice Tift (You can't stop the signal, Mal. You can never stop the signal.)
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To: indianyogi

An individual mandate is equivalent to a head tax—a tax imposed on every legal resident regardless of whether they are working, own property etc. A minimum wage applies only to those who are working and is “binding”—i.e., has a practical effect on what you get paid—only for a very small fraction of workers.

So both are infringements on liberty, but the individual mandate affects virtually everyone whereas the minimum wage affects many fewer.


41 posted on 03/22/2010 8:04:41 AM PDT by DrC
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To: Spartan79

It’s about damn time we get BACK to a more CONSTITUTIONAL VIEW of the USA... otherwise.. we’re now the USSA instead.


42 posted on 03/22/2010 8:05:03 AM PDT by gwilhelm56 (Islam is a Political System DISGUISED as a RELIGION!)
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To: Above My Pay Grade

**When the the Liberals cry “You have no right to force us to buy that!”, the response would be, “Well you had no right to force us to buy health insurance, but you did it anyway.**

That’s the most Common Sense Idea I’ve heard in months... however.. it will never cross the mind of the Republicans.


43 posted on 03/22/2010 8:08:17 AM PDT by gwilhelm56 (Islam is a Political System DISGUISED as a RELIGION!)
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To: DonaldC
I think the stronger argument is that they demand we buy into social security and medicare, why not healthcare.

SS & Medicare are taxes, government rhetoric notwithstanding. Healthcare reform is making US citizens purchase a private product at prevailing prices.

Indianyogi might have a point that the Federal Minimum Wage is the closest comparison to the Healthcare mandate.

44 posted on 03/22/2010 8:09:41 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: indianyogi
Someone asked a question: if government can set the mandated minimum wage, why can't they require us to buy health insurance?

I am not forced (at the point of a gun) to pay anyone a wage. I still have a free choice in the matter. (Key word: FREE)

45 posted on 03/22/2010 8:11:15 AM PDT by Hoodat (For the weapons of our warfare are mighty in God for pulling down strongholds.)
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To: MrChips
The courts may treat thses differently.

After that little tiff following the State of the Union address I wonder if a majority of the Supreme Court will have the stones to overturn Healthcare Reform. They looked pretty spooked.

46 posted on 03/22/2010 8:12:15 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: indianyogi
It is painfully obvious that the Government "can" do anything it GD pleases. That doesn't make it right or constitutional.

Short answer: you decide whether to employ someone.

47 posted on 03/22/2010 8:23:40 AM PDT by Nevermore (...just a typical cracker, clinging to my Constitutional rights...)
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To: indianyogi

MINIMUM WAGE, MAXIMUM FOLLY

A MINORITY VIEW
BY WALTER E. WILLIAMS
RELEASE: WEDNESDAY, MARCH 23, 2005, AND THEREAFTER

http://econfaculty.gmu.edu/wew//articles/05/wage.html


48 posted on 03/22/2010 9:18:04 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB (ACORN:American Corruption for Obama Right Now)
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To: Sarah-bot; indianyogi
You were saying ...

Also, minimum wage is state legislation not Federal legislation

Here's where the Federal law on Minimum Wage applies to the states... you see... :-)

Minimum Wages in the States

By law, states are allowed to establish their own minimum wages and regulations. However, anytime the state minimum wage differs from the federal minimum wage, the higher rate applies.

49 posted on 03/22/2010 9:45:24 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: John Valentine; bgill
You were saying ...

The “miniumum wage” is not Constitutional either.

I love these arguments where "it is said" something is not Constitutional, and where "It has been done for decades" and it's never been declared Unconstitutional... LOL ...

50 posted on 03/22/2010 9:49:56 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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