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Pelosi hails church agency on health reform
The United Methodist Church ^ | UPDATED 6:00 P.M. EST March 22, 2010 | United Methodist News Service

Posted on 03/22/2010 6:33:24 PM PDT by iceskater

The landmark vote on health care by the House of Representatives March 21 affirms The United Methodist Church’s Social Principles that declares health care is a “basic human right,” the top executive of the denomination’s social action agency said.

"For decades, the General Board of Church and Society has worked alongside thousands of United Methodists to achieve health care for all in the U.S.," said Jim Winkler, chief executive of the United Methodist Board of Church and Society. "This vote brings us closer to that reality."

The majority of United Methodist lawmakers in the House voted against the plan. However, in her closing remarks before the legislation was approved, Speaker Nancy Pelosi referred to The United Methodist Church as one of many organizations “sending a clear message to members of Congress: Say yes to health care reform.” More specifically, the Board of Church and Society is included on Pelosi’s Web site listing organizations supporting reform.

While it has historically supported access to health care for all, the denomination’s top lawmaking assembly did not act on the specific legislation. General Conference, held every four years, last met in 2008.

Votes by United Methodists in House of Representatives

YES:

Vic Snyder (D), Ark. Doris Matsui (D), Cali. Laura Richardson (D), Cali. Allen Boyd (D), Fla. Suzanne Kosmas (D), Fla. Baron Hill (D), Ind. David Loebsack (D), Iowa Dutch Ruppersberger (D), Md. Mark Schauer (D), Mich. Bennie Thompson (D), Miss. Russ Carnahan (D), Mo. Emanuel Cleaver II (D), Mo. Betty Sutton (D), Ohio Bart Gordon (D), Tenn. Lloyd Doggett (D), Texas Gene Green (D), Texas Solomon Ortiz (D), Texas Rick Larsen (D), Wash.

NO:

Marion Berry (D), Ark. Mike Ross (D), Ark. Mike Coffman (R), Colo. Jeff Miller (R), Fla. Bill Posey (R), Fla. Bill Young (R), Fla. Steve Buyer (R), Ind. Lynn Jenkins (R), Kan. Jerry Moran (R), Kan. Ed Whitfield (R), Ky. Mike Rogers (R), Mich. John Kline (R), Minn. Lee Terry (R), Neb. Steven LaTourette (R), Ohio Dan Boren (D), Okla. Tom Cole (R), Okla. Phil Roe (R), Tenn. Joe Barton (R), Texas John Culberson (R), Texas Chet Edwards (D), Texas Kay Granger (R), Texas Ralph Hall (R), Texas Sam Johnson (R), Texas Pete Olson (R), Texas Pete Sessions (R), Texas Rick Boucher (D), Virginia Differing opinions United Methodists, like most Americans, have taken different positions on the basic legislation approved by the House. Opponents of the legislation have cited its cost, its expansion of federal power and concerns that it would reverse past policy by allowing federal funding of abortions.

The United Methodist Church is third among religious groups in the total number of members of the 111th Congress. Among its 44 members in the House, 26 voted no; 18 voted yes.

“There are parts of this bill that are good, including much-needed health insurance reforms and making health insurance affordable for the uninsured,” said Rep. Mike Ross, a United Methodist from Arizona who opposed the legislation. “On the other hand, many parts of this bill cause me great concern, like telling people they must buy health insurance or be fined, cutting Medicare by more than a half-trillion dollars, increasing taxes and forcing businesses to provide health insurance to their employees.”

Rep. Marion Berry, a United Methodist from Arkansas, said health care reform “must be deficit-neutral and must be fully paid for by squeezing out more savings from the pharmaceutical manufacturers and private insurance industry instead of cramming down hospitals and other providers and taxing Americans.”

United Methodist Congresswoman Laura Richardson of California voted for the legislation.

“While this legislation does not include an comprehensive full public option as the House of Representatives preferred, it is a giant step forward in beginning the reform of our nation’s current neglectful health care system,” she said.

Palmer rejoices Bishop Gregory Palmer, president of the Council of Bishops, said he “rejoiced” at the passage of the bill because it aligns with the values of The United Methodist Church.

Though the denomination’s chief legislative body, the General Conference, has taken no stand, it has been a strong advocate for universal health care.

The United Methodist Church in its law book states: “We believe it is a governmental responsibility to provide all citizens with health care.”

The 2008 United Methodist Book of Resolutions adds: “In the United States today, however, fulfillment of this duty is thwarted by simultaneous crises of access, quality, and cost. The result of these crises is injustice to the most vulnerable, increased risk to health care consumers, and waste of scarce public and private resources.”

Resolution 3201 in the United Methodist Book of Resolutions charges the United Methodist Board of Church and Society with primary responsibility for advocating health care for all in the United States Congress. The resolution was approved by the 2008 General Conference, the denomination’s highest policy-making body.

Paul Brown, a Duke graduate student, called for unity amid disagreement.

“Sisters and brothers, our unity is grounded in Jesus Christ—not in the details of health care reform,” he wrote on the denomination’s Facebook site. “As a church that includes both Hillary Clinton and George W. Bush as members, we are free to disagree on various social issues, but we remain united in one Lord, one faith, and one baptism.”

News media contact: Kathy L. Gilbert, Nashville, Tenn., (615) 742-5470 or newsdesk@umcom.org


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: governmenttakeover; pelosicare; umc
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I urge everyone who is/was a member of the United Methodist Church to consider redirecting the money you would have given to the church to the political campaigns of those committed to overturning this assualt on our liberty. That's what I'm doing. And I'm leaving the UMC. This was the last straw.
1 posted on 03/22/2010 6:33:24 PM PDT by iceskater
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To: iceskater; xzins; wagglebee; blue-duncan

xzins, I suspect you are going to catch some heat for this.


2 posted on 03/22/2010 6:34:47 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: iceskater
The United Methodist Church...that's that atheist organization that recently abandoned its policy of teaching The Nine Suggestions because they were too judgmental,isn't it?
3 posted on 03/22/2010 6:36:55 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Host The Beer Summit-->Win The Nobel Peace Prize!)
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To: Gay State Conservative

The UMC is no longer the church I grew up in. It has really turned to the dark side. I’m not convinced that the ‘leadership’ of the UMC actually believe in the risen Lord.


4 posted on 03/22/2010 6:39:12 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: iceskater

I left the UMC years ago. I will be sending this to my parents.


5 posted on 03/22/2010 6:42:50 PM PDT by RushIsMyTeddyBear (I don't have a 'Cousin Pookie'.)
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To: iceskater

Isn’t the UMC the same as ELCA and the Episcopalians (and PCUSA for the most part)? Part of the old mainstream denominations that have gone apostate? Surprised to the Methodists go to. They were part of the great awakening and really had their day.


6 posted on 03/22/2010 6:48:53 PM PDT by circlecity
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To: circlecity

It breaks my heart. The UMC is also supporting amnesty for illegal aliens.


7 posted on 03/22/2010 6:50:02 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: P-Marlowe; iceskater; Gay State Conservative; wagglebee; blue-duncan
xzins, I suspect you are going to catch some heat for this.

As if there were no baptists, catholics, presbyterians, who voted for this.

I believe that life is a critical right that shouldn't be violated. I do not believe that health care is a critical right, but is instead a benefit that a government might or might not decide to implement without violating any moral law one way or the other.

If I were to explain how the United Methodist Church actually works, folks would understand how it is that a suggestion based on our social principles can be denied by 26 UM congresscritters and affirmed by only 18.

8 posted on 03/22/2010 6:51:57 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: iceskater

not if they dont take care of themselves first......health
care is when a human being takes the initiative to help themselves to make their lives healthy...by excercising, eating the right foods, and not taking drugs, or being obese just to see how fat they can get. I understand valid medical problems, That is health care to begin with....but really is this about soscialized medicine. or is it about Obama?


9 posted on 03/22/2010 7:01:03 PM PDT by Bullfrogg (American by birth, Irish by heritage, and hellraiser by choice)
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To: iceskater

I have never, ever regretted leaving the methodist church 25 years ago. It has only continued it slimy slide into apostasy. My parents are too old and feeble to see what their church has become.


10 posted on 03/22/2010 7:01:56 PM PDT by strongbow
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To: iceskater

Reading this reinforces my belief that my decision to leave the Methodist Church 30 years ago was the right one.

(I still miss the old time hymns, tho.)


11 posted on 03/22/2010 7:16:46 PM PDT by Dinah Lord
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To: circlecity
the 60’s radicals, maybe in sheep's clothing, have been infiltrating and taking over all of our social institutions, i.e. universities, churches, government at many levels, etc.

IMO it has been an intentional plan to move the country to the far left. They have succeeded.

I recall that in the 60’s and before, the Episcopal Church was often referred to as the Republican Party at prayer. Look at the church now!

12 posted on 03/22/2010 7:23:06 PM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda" and its allies.)
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To: circlecity
the 60’s radicals, maybe in sheep's clothing, have been infiltrating and taking over all of our social institutions, i.e. universities, churches, government at many levels, etc.

IMO it has been an intentional plan to move the country to the far left. They have succeeded.

I recall that in the 60’s and before, the Episcopal Church was often referred to as the Republican Party at prayer. Look at the church now!

13 posted on 03/22/2010 7:23:50 PM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda" and its allies.)
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To: iceskater

The UMC supports “a woman right to choose”, gun control, socialized heath,housing and food and are very close to accepting homosexuality. The hiearchy is very liberal and many stupid conservative people attend this church. Why I do not know??


14 posted on 03/22/2010 7:24:49 PM PDT by therut
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To: therut

Stupid is too strong a word. I change it to misguided. I have a very hard time with this type church. They are in small towns and the people who go there have NO idea what their hiearchy supports. I watched a NOW president get introduced with loving embrace by a UMC preacher on c-span while she was out shilling her pro-abortion book and that did it for me.


15 posted on 03/22/2010 7:30:52 PM PDT by therut
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To: xzins

So, I’m struggling or was struggling with continuing to belong to the UMC. When does continuing to support the church with my prayers, my presence, my gifts and my service become tacit approval of the positions of the General Conference?

I’m not trying to be obnoxious...I really think the UMC has reached that point with me. If I continue to support the chuch in any capacity, I’m just providing my approval of their positions.


16 posted on 03/22/2010 7:31:33 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: iceskater

We are all Amish now...


17 posted on 03/22/2010 7:37:58 PM PDT by Pikachu_Dad
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To: iceskater
The major reason for the decline in church membership is the liberalism coming from the pulpits. This is true for both the Protestant and Catholic Churches. I've had friends who left the Methodist Church because of their liberal policies. You are just as likely to get a sermon on global warming or social justice(whatever that is) than the salvation of your soul. And yet the people in these churches persist in the madness. There is nothing Biblical in liberalism. In fact just the opposite. The Methodist Church is just about the worst of the Mainline Protestant churches. The Catholic Churches are either holding firm or in total collapse depending upon what part of the country you are in.

My Jewish friends tell me it's terrible over in their neck of the woods as well. A very courageous 25% of them (conservatives) are fighting a noble battle against the very liberal Jews.
18 posted on 03/22/2010 7:40:06 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough!)
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To: iceskater
No big surprise. The UMC has for quite some time been about pleasing man and not God. It's a member of the National Council of Churches. A quick examination of the NCC website should tell you what you need to know about member churches.
19 posted on 03/22/2010 7:47:52 PM PDT by ThomasSawyer (Democratic Underground: Proof that anyone can figure out how to use a computer.)
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To: iceskater; P-Marlowe

Below are some democrats in Congress and their denominations. We can assume that the vote yesterday was widely represented by religious denomination. If you can’t be methodist, then you can’t be any of those other denoms either.

Or

You can differentiate between your particular church that you attend and the denomination with which that church is affiliated.

The methodists really are no different in that regard than anyone else. There is no head of the methodist church. Each bishops area is independent for all practical purposes, and each local church is pretty much left to its own devices.

Alcee Hastings, D African Methodist Episcopal (AME) James Clyburn, D African Methodist Episcopal (AME) Barbara Lee, D Baptist Juanita Millender-McDonald, D Baptist Corrine Brown, D Baptist Kendrick Meek, D Baptist Sanford Bishop, D Baptist John Lewis, D Baptist John Barrow, D Baptist David Scott, D Baptist Jesse Jackson, Jr., D Baptist Danny Davis, D Baptist Julia Carson, D Baptist William Jefferson, D Baptist Albert Wynn, D Baptist Steny Hoyer, D Baptist
Elijah Cummings, D Baptist Carolyn Kilpatrick, D Baptist
John Conyers, D Baptist Donald Payne, D Baptist Gregory Meeks, D Baptist Edolphus Towns, D Baptist Major Owens, D Baptist .K. Butterfield, D Baptist David Price, D Baptist
Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D Baptist Chaka Fattah, D Baptist
Lincoln Davis, D Baptist Harold E. Ford, Jr., D Baptist
Eddie Bernice Johnson, D Baptist Alan Mollohan, D Baptist
Gwen Moore, D Baptist Bobby Rush, D Baptist Al Green, D Baptist Ed Pastor, D Catholic Raul Grijalva, D Catholic
Mike Thompson, D Catholic George Miller, D Catholic Nancy Pelosi, D Catholic Ellen Tauscher, D Catholic Richard Pombo, D Catholic Anna Eshoo, D Catholic Dennis Cardoza, D Catholic Jim Costa, D Catholic Xavier Becerra, D Catholic
Hilda Solis, D Catholic Diane Watson, D Catholic Lucille Roybal-Allard, D Catholic Grace Napolitano, D Catholic
Linda Sanchez, D Catholic Joe Baca, D Catholic Loretta Sanchez, D Catholic John Salazar, D Catholic John Larson, D Catholic Rose DeLauro, D Catholic Jim Marshall, D Catholic
Cynthia McKinney, D Catholic Dan Lipinski, D Catholic
Luis Gutierrez, D Catholic Henry Hyde, R Catholic Jerry Costello, D Catholic Lane Evans, D Catholic eter Visclosky, D Catholic c Charlie Melancon, D Catholic Mike Michaud, D Catholic Richard Neal, D Catholic James McGovern, D Catholic Martin Meehan, D Catholic Edward Markey, D Catholic Michael Capuano, D Catholic Stephen Lynch, D Catholic Bill Delahunt, D Catholic Bart Stupak, D Catholic
Dale Kildee, D Catholic John Dingell, D Catholic Betty McCollum, D Catholic James Oberstar, D Catholic Gene Taylor, D Catholic William Clay, Jr., D Catholic Frank Pallone, D Catholic Bill Pascrell, D Catholic
Robert Menendez, D Catholic Timothy Bishop, D Catholic
Carolyn McCarthy, D Catholic Joseph Crowley, D Catholic
Nydia Velazquez, D Catholic Vito Fossella, R Catholic
Charles Rangel, D Catholic Jose Serrano, D Catholic Michael McNulty, D Catholic Maurice Hinchey, D Catholic Brian Higgins, D Catholic Marcy Kaptur, D Catholic Dennis ucinich, D Catholic, Vegan Timothy Ryan, D Catholic Peter DeFazio, D Catholic Robert Brady, D Catholic Paul Kanjorski, D Catholic John Murtha, D Catholic Michael Doyle, D Catholic Tim Holden, D Catholic Patrick Kennedy, D Catholic Jim Langevin, D Catholic Ruben Hinojosa, D Catholic Silvestre Reyes, D Catholic Charles Gonzalez, D Catholic Henry Cuellar, D Catholic James Moran, D Catholic
David Obey, D Catholic Ike Skelton, D Christian Church Disciples of Christ) John Tanner, D Christian Church (Disciples of Christ) Melissa Bean, D Eastern Orthodox Sam Farr, D Episcopalian Jim Davis, D Episcopalian Chris Van Hollen, D Episcopalian Robert Andrews, D Episcopalian Louise Slaughter, D Episcopalian Brad Miller, D piscopalian
Jim Cooper, D Episcopalian Robert C. Scott, D Episcopalian
Jim McDermott, D Episcopalian om Lantos, D Jewish Brad Sherman, D Jewish Howard Berman, D Jewish Adam Schiff, D Jewish Henry Waxman, D Jewish Jane Harman, D Jewish
Bob Filner, D Jewish Susan Davis, D Jewish Robert Wexler, D Jewish Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D Jewish Rahm Emanuel, D Jewish anice Schakowsky, D Jewish Benjamin Cardin, D Jewish
Barney Frank, D Jewish Sander Levin, D Jewish Shelley Berkley, D Jewish Steven Rothman, D Jewish Steven Israel, D Jewish Gary Ackerman, D Jewish Jerrold Nadler, D Jewish
Anthony Weiner, D Jewish Eliot Engel, D Jewish Nita Lowey, D Jewish Allyson Schwartz, D Jewish Bernard Sanders, Ind. Jewish Mike Simpson, R Latter-day SaintTom Udall, D Latter-day Saint Jim Matheson, D Latter-day Saint Mark Udall, D Latter-day Saint Leonard Boswell, D Community of Christ (RLDS) Artur Davis, D Lutheran Lois Capps, D Lutheran
Martin Olav Sabo, D Lutheran Collin Peterson, D Lutheran
Sherrod Brown, D Lutheran Darlene Hooley, D Lutheran Stephanie Herseth, D Lutheran Norm Dicks, D Lutheran Ron Kind, D Lutheran Zoe Lofgren, D Lutheran Robert Cramer, D Methodist arion Berry, D Methodist Mike Ross, D Methodist
Robert T.Matsui, D Methodist Jeff Miller, R Methodist Allen Boyd, D Methodist C.A. Dutch Ruppersberger, D Methodist
Bennie Thompson, D Methodist Russ Carnahan, D Methodist
Emanuel Cleaver II, D Methodist Ted Strickland, D Methodist
David Hobson, R Methodist Dan Boren, D Methodist Bart Gordon, D Methodist Chet Edwards, D Methodist Lloyd Doggett, D Methodist Solomon Ortiz, D Methodist Gene Green, D Methodist Rick Boucher, D Methodist Rick Larsen, D Methodist Donna M. Christian-Christensen (V.I.) Moravian ic Snyder, D Presbyterian Lynn Woolsey, D Presbyterian Diana DeGette, D Presbyterian A.B. Chandler, D Presbyterian
Carolyn Maloney, D Presbyterian Bob Etheridge, D esbyterian
Mike McIntyre, D Presbyterian Melvin Watt, D Presbyterian
Earl Pomeroy, D Presbyterian David Wu, D Presbyterian
Charlie Dent, R Presbyterian John Spratt, D Presbyterian
Jimmy Duncan, R Presbyterian Nick Rahall, D Presbyterian
Rush Holt, D Quaker Sheila Jackson Lee, D Seventh-day Adventist Pete Stark, D Unitarian Michael Honda, “Protestant” Ed Case, D “Protestant” Dennis Moore, D “Protestant” Thomas Allen, D “Protestant” Jay Inslee, D “Protestant” rian Baird, D “Protestant” Neil Abercrombie, D Protestant (raised) Maxine Waters, D “Christian”
Adam Smith, D “Christian” Tammy Baldwin, D GLBT (relig. affil. unspecified) John Olver, D unspecified John Tierney, D unspecified Earl Blumenauer, D unspecified


20 posted on 03/22/2010 7:55:22 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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As a Methodist I denounce the United Methodist Board of Church and Society. Methodists do not all agree with this political organization.


21 posted on 03/22/2010 7:57:51 PM PDT by Jenny217
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To: xzins

I didn’t think Methodists were any different from any other denomination. It just hit too close to home for me.

I grew up in the UMC. My minister made some comments from the pulpit on Sunday about HC that really put me over the edge. I just don’t know how I can continue to support the UMC. Supporting the church means I condone their positions.


22 posted on 03/22/2010 7:59:53 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: iceskater; P-Marlowe

What did your pastor say, and what is immoral about health care IF it doesn’t include provisions (like abortion) that are themselves immoral?


23 posted on 03/22/2010 8:03:13 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
..."The methodists really are no different in that regard than anyone else. There is no head of the methodist church. Each bishops area is independent for all practical purposes, and each local church is pretty much left to its own devices...

The UMC is the UMC, local or not. You either agree with the main tenants of your church affiliation, or you find a different affiliation. Visit the link I had in the earlier post for the NCC. Visit the UMC homepage and then tell me there isn't an over arching socialist bent to the United Methodist Church in general. As for all the baptists listed, there are different affiliations of baptist churches. As another example; Barak Obama belonged to United Church of Christ which is nothing like the Church of Christ. And as for all the Catholics in your list; the Catholic Church has a serious identity crisis it needs to get sorted out.
24 posted on 03/22/2010 8:10:59 PM PDT by ThomasSawyer (Democratic Underground: Proof that anyone can figure out how to use a computer.)
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To: xzins

So are you going to thank me for dragging you into this thread? :-)


25 posted on 03/22/2010 8:15:54 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: iceskater

If health care is a right, then why am I being taxed on the money I spend to secure that right?


26 posted on 03/22/2010 8:18:24 PM PDT by Hoodat (For the weapons of our warfare are mighty in God for pulling down strongholds.)
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To: xzins

He preached on the story of Mary anointing Jesus’s feet. He said, “I wish Jesus had never said, ‘The poor you have with you always’. At least one President has used that as an excuse to cut government aid programs.”

That was the most egregious comment. On one had he said that we as Christ’s followers that we need to help our fellow man and in the next breathe he said government needs to do that on our behalf. You really can’t have that both ways. IMHO, at least.


27 posted on 03/22/2010 8:18:56 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: iceskater; P-Marlowe
Here is the social principles section on health care, (at least, the one I found on the internet.) I have underlined a few items below.

I agree with the #1 underline that health care is a basic human right, in the same way that I agree that life is a basic human right. If you are denied access to staying alive, then I would consider that a denial of the right to live.

I'm glad to see them use scripture to support their position. #2.

#3 is an opinion about what is "best" and is not enforceable. I would say that a strong economy with good jobs is the best way to provide health care. There is nothing in this principle that is not debatable by any member of the UMC. It is not a "law" that you believe it. It is the opinion of a committee that met and wrote it.

#4 Is again debatable as to how to provide. To provide by having a strong economy is just as valid a position as any other that might be considered.

V. Right to Health Care Health is a condition of physical, mental, social, and spiritual well-being. John 10:10b says, “I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.” Stewardship of health is the responsibility of each person to whom health has been entrusted. Creating the personal, environmental, and social conditions in which health can thrive is a joint responsibility—public and private. We encourage individuals to pursue a healthy lifestyle and affirm the importance of preventive health care, health education, environmental and occupational safety, good nutrition,and secure housing in achieving health. #1Health care is a basic human right.

Providing the care needed to maintain health, prevent disease, and restore health after injury or illness is a responsibility each person owes others and government owes to all, a responsibility government ignores at its peril. #2 In Ezekiel 34:4a, God points out the failures of the leadership of Israel to care for the weak: “You have not strengthened the weak, you have not healed the sick, you have not bound up the injured.” As a result all suffer. Like police and fire protection, #3 health care is best funded through the government’s ability to tax each person equitably and directly fund the provider entities. Countries facing a public health crisis such as HIV/AIDS must have access to generic medicines and to patented medicines. We affirm the right of men and women to have access to comprehensive reproductive health/family planning information and services that will serve as a means to prevent unplanned pregnancies, reduce abortions, and prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS. The right to health care includes care for persons with brain diseases, neurological conditions, or physical disabilities, who must be afforded the same access to health care as all other persons in our communities. It is unjust to construct or perpetuate barriers to physical or mental wholeness or full participation in community.

#4 We believe it is a governmental responsibility to provide all citizens with health care.


28 posted on 03/22/2010 8:19:57 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

There is nothing immoral about health care per se. The bill that is about to become law is immoral and unconstitutional. I think there is a lot that is immoral about government running health care. The slide to death panels for example.


29 posted on 03/22/2010 8:21:46 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins

I’m glad you dragged him into the thread even if he isn’t so glad. I value his opinion and insight on the workings of the UMC. I hope I’m not being too obnoxious. I’ve struggled with where the UMC has been going for a long time.


30 posted on 03/22/2010 8:26:30 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: iceskater

Gee, did she get tired of trying to deal with the Catholic Bishops?


31 posted on 03/22/2010 8:28:38 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins

I was just going to ping one of you and find out who has a United Methodist ping list!


32 posted on 03/22/2010 8:29:36 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: iceskater; P-Marlowe

IF death panels are a part of a government health plan, then that would be immoral....the same as if abortion were a part of a gov’t plan.

However, there is nothing immoral about a government health plan. I, for example, am a military retiree, and I have had my health care provided by the military (a gov’t arm) for decades. There’s nothing immoral about health care unless the plan itself is immoral.

It is immoral, I think, to be unworkable. That is wrong with this particular plan. So is the failure to specifically prevent abortion. So is any committee that decides who is to get life-saving care and who won’t.

There is a difference between saying THIS plan has immoral elements and saying ANY plan a government could come up with is automatically immoral simply because it originates at a government level.


33 posted on 03/22/2010 8:31:19 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins

I think whenever government usurps the free market, then there is a problem that perhaps borders on immoral.

You’re giving me things to think about about.

I do believe that God inspired the Founders in the creation of our country. This law flies in the face of everything the Founders fought and died for. So, in that regard, I think this bill is immoral.

Still, I struggle. I really am having ‘issues’ with drawing the line between being in the local church and supporting the local church and by my presence in the local church giving tacit approval to policies and positions that are ‘questionable’ from a biblical perspective.

I am not a Bible scholar. I’m just a plain old member. All I know is this doesn’t ‘feel’ right.


34 posted on 03/22/2010 8:38:29 PM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: P-Marlowe; iceskater; Salvation; ThomasSawyer
You are the LHP, so of course I humbly thank you for dragging me onto this thread. :>) Sawyer's comments indicate that he simply doesn't understand how our denominaton works. That's common. If you don't understand our government structure, then you really can't even comment. Essentially, using Sawyer's logic, he just agreed that because he lives in America, that he is guilty of Pelosi's healthcare debacle. He would say, "No, no, no. Those aren't the people I voted for in this democratic system."

And I would say, "Exactly. That's how the Methodist Church also works."

35 posted on 03/22/2010 8:41:10 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins; iceskater; blue-duncan; wmfights; wagglebee; Forest Keeper
However, there is nothing immoral about a government health plan. I, for example, am a military retiree, and I have had my health care provided by the military (a gov’t arm) for decades. There’s nothing immoral about health care unless the plan itself is immoral.

A Military retirement health plan is something you earned. It is not a "right" otherwise I should be entitled to the same policy that you have at the same cost.

The immoral thing about government mandated health care is that it takes away incentives to do charitable giving. If the government is providing all the needs of the poor, then I am not obligated as a Christian to care for the poor. That responsibility has now been shifted to the government and now rather than people relying upon God or upon the good graces of charitable people, they now rely on the government and in essence the government replaces the church and the government becomes "god".

I recognize that there is a moral obligation of people to provide for those who cannot under any circumstances provide for themselves, but again the obligation to pay for that should first fall upon those to whom God has charged with taking care of them, i.e., religious Christians and Jews and secondarily and as a last resort upon society as a whole.

So in my world, government run taxpayer paid and mandatorily prescribed health insurance is immoral and unconstitutional.

The mere unconstitutionality of this bill is reason enough to call it immoral. Congress and the Federal Government is under an obligation to act only in accordance with the Constitution, and when they violate that Constitution, they are breaking a covenant with the taxpayers and the citizens and as such they have acted immorally as well as illegally. This congress has broken down the covenant that our founders made with the Citizenry and as such they have, by the passage of this abortion, aborted the foundations of our Republic and plunged us into tyranny.

36 posted on 03/22/2010 8:43:41 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins

**IF death panels are a part of a government health plan, then that would be immoral....the same as if abortion were a part of a gov’t plan.**

I’m thinking that they probably are both a part of this.

I’ll go get the thread about Planned Parenthood celebrating because this passed. That’s enough proof for me that we still don’t know what is in this healthcare debacle.


37 posted on 03/22/2010 8:45:21 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; iceskater; Hoodat; ThomasSawyer; strongbow; Jenny217; truthguy; Pikachu_Dad; ...
Planned Parenthood: Pro-Abortion Bill a Victory, Executive Order Meaningless

38 posted on 03/22/2010 8:53:32 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: P-Marlowe; iceskater; Salvation

A particular health plan is not a “right.” Access to health care is a right. It must be since “life” itself is a right. If I were denied “access”, then that would be the same as killing me.

We’re not saying at this point anything about who is responsible for paying.

Whether I earned it or not, my health care is a government plan. That fact does not make it immoral. Had I not earned it, and you were forced to pay for it anyway, then that would be at least one immoral element of it.


39 posted on 03/22/2010 8:55:56 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
Access to health care is a right. It must be since “life” itself is a right. If I were denied “access”, then that would be the same as killing me.

Just because you have a right to access medical care does not mean you have a right to force other people to pay for it for you. The essence of Liberty is personal responsibility. The essence of Charity is voluntary individual sacrifice. A government which compels others to purchase your "right" is tyrannical and tyranny is the polar opposite of Charity.

Since you can't live without food or water, should the government compel me to pay for your food?

If access to health care is a right, then from where do we get our rights? Are our rights given to us by our government?

40 posted on 03/22/2010 9:17:45 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe

Read the last line of my #39 above, and then compare it with your post.


41 posted on 03/22/2010 9:24:46 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: P-Marlowe

Read the last line of my #39 above, and then compare it with your post.


42 posted on 03/22/2010 9:24:47 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins
"Essentially, using Sawyer's logic, he just agreed that because he lives in America, that he is guilty of Pelosi's healthcare debacle."

I must say that is a stretch. I was born into this great country of which there is no other like it on the face of the earth. I can't simply walk down the street and find another country that holds the same founding principles. As Christians, we have been given a book by which to live our lives and also judge the doctrinal teaching of our church leaders. If I attend a denomination that adds, substitutes, or takes away from that at that denomination's and/or society's convenience, I find another denomination.
43 posted on 03/22/2010 9:40:28 PM PDT by ThomasSawyer (Democratic Underground: Proof that anyone can figure out how to use a computer.)
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To: xzins
Please explain how Ezekiel 34:4a covers the UMC's "Pro-Choice" stance.
44 posted on 03/22/2010 9:49:13 PM PDT by ThomasSawyer (Democratic Underground: Proof that anyone can figure out how to use a computer.)
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To: ThomasSawyer

Again, you show you simply don’t understand how it works.

There is a reason more reps were opposed to this bill than supported it.

In terms of life, the conservatives in this denomination have worked for 2 decades to bring our statement on abortion around. It was at one time during the heyday of theological liberalism a pro-abortion position. Each quadrennium since it has been gradually crafted in the direction of a pro-life, rape/incest/life of mother position. We have just about succeeded, and with another 2 quadrennia we’ll be there.

But, you don’t understand how it works and what we’ve fought for.

I will admit, though, that it’s a lot easier to quit than to fight.


45 posted on 03/22/2010 9:56:16 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; iceskater; blue-duncan; wmfights; wagglebee
I agree with the #1 underline that health care is a basic human right, in the same way that I agree that life is a basic human right. If you are denied access to staying alive, then I would consider that a denial of the right to live.

Ah, but from where do these rights derive? Maintaining someone else's life is by no means the same thing as taking life away. Does the Bible support a God-given right to healthcare? Or, do you believe that human rights come from the government? :)

46 posted on 03/22/2010 11:26:39 PM PDT by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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To: Forest Keeper

endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights....among these...LIFE.


47 posted on 03/23/2010 3:37:56 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Forest Keeper; xzins
Does the Bible support a God-given right to healthcare?

Jesus is the Great Physician. He grants us life and he knows the number of our days. If we wish to prolong the number of our days, that is our priviledge and it is something that ultimately we are going to have to pay for. I pay extra money for healthy foods on the premise and hope that I might live longer or at least live better. That is an exercise of my rights, but if, in order to prolong my life or make it better, I must steal money from someone else by way of government imposed taxes and fees, then I am taking away someone else's right to the pursuit of happiness in order to make myself happier. Quite frankly that is a sin.

I get angry at Churches that are willing to lobby congress to institute Missionary objectives and promote the welfare state as a means of allegedly doing God's work. Charity becomes theft when you take the fruits of one man's labor by force and then give it to another man who has not earned it. Paul states quite clearly that if a man refuses to work, then he should not be given food. Clearly the right to life comes with the obligation to keep yourself alive and not to force others to feed you, or to pay for your doctor visits or to give you shelter. When the government takes the money that I earned (the money that God has given to me to be a steward) and then gives it to a man who will not work, then the Government has violated my Christian principles with my money. The Bible also states that a man who does not provide for his own family is "worse than the infidels" 1 Tim 5:8.

Yes we have a right to life, but we also have a duty maintain our own lives and not to be an unreasonable burden on society.

48 posted on 03/23/2010 6:11:48 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: xzins

We have had conversations along this line before and I have very much appreciated your insight. And you’ve assured me that there is a movement within the church leadership to move towards more conservative principles. I thought that was true until this. Between this and the UMC push for amnesty for illegals, all I see is a church leadership riddled with leftist, social justice types who think America is the worst country on earth and all our institutions should be dismantled.

Maybe because my minister has been a little more open about his personal views, I am more disillusioned. Leaving isn’t easy for me. Truly, it is not. But I keep coming back to the question of when does my prayers, my presence, my gifts and my service condone these positions? Where is the line? I can’t condone the UMC’s position on health care reform, global warming or amnesty for illegals. I just can’t. The UMC leadership is somewhat akin to Congress - “you can protest all you want, we’re still going to do what we think is best. The devil with foundational principles - we’re going to do what we’re going to do.”

I feel like Congress has just raped and pillaged this country. And now, I can’t even find solace in my church because the UMC condoned what Congress has just done.


49 posted on 03/23/2010 6:11:56 AM PDT by iceskater (The "public option" in government run health care means no option at all.)
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To: xzins; P-Marlowe; iceskater; blue-duncan; wmfights; wagglebee
endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights....among these...LIFE.

Sure, but isn't there a big difference between the right to not have one's life unlawfully taken away and a right to force other people to sacrifice to any degree to maintain everyone's life? Do you draw a line between universal coverage for all healthcare and universal life-saving-only healthcare? We already have the latter right now, so I'm trying to figure out what changes vis-a-vis Obamacare you are supporting.

50 posted on 03/23/2010 12:20:05 PM PDT by Forest Keeper ((It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.))
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