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New Proof Unknown "Structures" Tug at Our Universe
National Geographic ^ | 22 March 2010 | NatGeo

Posted on 03/22/2010 8:02:28 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS

"Dark flow" is no fluke, suggests a new study that strengthens the case for unknown, unseen "structures" lurking on the outskirts of creation.

In 2008 scientists reported the discovery of hundreds of galaxy clusters streaming in the same direction at more than 2.2 million miles (3.6 million kilometers) an hour.

This mysterious motion can't be explained by current models for distribution of mass in the universe. So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe.

Now the same team has found that the dark flow extends even deeper into the universe than previously reported: out to at least 2.5 billion light-years from Earth.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.nationalgeographic.com ...


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: catastrophism; darkflow; natgeo; science; space; stringtheory
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Aliens sitting on the edge of the universe looking at us in their telescopes are going "what a bunch of morons. Hey Queeguac, did you hear about them passing this healthcare thing? ... That's what I said! Now you owe me ten space dollars. ... Nuh uh! My money was on China. ... Yes it was! Don't cheat!"
1 posted on 03/22/2010 8:02:28 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS
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To: Feline_AIDS

LOL


2 posted on 03/22/2010 8:05:26 PM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: Feline_AIDS

I thought we were supposed to stop having that “dark flow” in the middle of the night when we were kids...


3 posted on 03/22/2010 8:07:07 PM PDT by Bean Counter (I keeps mah feathers numbered, for just such an emergency...)
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To: Feline_AIDS


TEN space dollars? Small timer... I want REAL action!
4 posted on 03/22/2010 8:10:09 PM PDT by BigEdLB (Now there ARE 1,000,000 regrets - but it may be too late.)
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To: Feline_AIDS

No..Queegac would say “Dude, the leader of this region called America has a leader who depends on a teleprompter and the mate looks like a female from the planet Sasquatch”


5 posted on 03/22/2010 8:10:10 PM PDT by max americana
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To: Feline_AIDS

Only question I have is now that we have observed it
is it still doing the same thing?


6 posted on 03/22/2010 8:10:20 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Feline_AIDS

The invisible space cat is clawing at them? (Just kidding)


7 posted on 03/22/2010 8:11:10 PM PDT by HiTech RedNeck (I am in America but not of America (per bible: am in the world but not of it))
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To: Feline_AIDS

If it is outside our universe, and more than likely traveling at the speed of light or near it, then we will never know for certain. It will never be more than a leap of faith by scientists. I put this in the same category as the infinite number of parallel universes theory.


8 posted on 03/22/2010 8:11:47 PM PDT by Nosterrex
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To: Feline_AIDS
Photobucket

"40 Quatloos the American Earthlings are stupid enough to keep the pelosi creature in office even after this spit in their collective faces. As we have seen so many times, freedom is quickly and easily squandered by lesser intellects."

9 posted on 03/22/2010 8:12:04 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ( Tagline lost -- anyone seen it?)
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To: Feline_AIDS

Pathetic earthlings. Hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror.


10 posted on 03/22/2010 8:18:02 PM PDT by Oratam
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To: Feline_AIDS

Theoretical physics has totally gone to hell. The basic density of space in our galaxy is similar to that of the area including our sun and AC i.e. about one dust mote every four miles, and the density of space between galaxies has to be vastly less than that. There is no way gravity does ANYTHING worth talking about at those distances. Gravity is the weakest force in nature and does not control the cosmos, period.


11 posted on 03/22/2010 8:18:31 PM PDT by wendy1946
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To: Nosterrex

String and Multiverse Theory are basically forms of Theology. The difference from traditional religion is that the high priests of these Theologies have PhD’s in physics, etc. That doesn’t make their theories any more valid than Catholicism or Hinduism. They are pure belief systems without evidence. Multiverse Theory is especially attractive because it is impossible to prove. Grant money can flow unhindered forever because of it. People are simply expected to believe it because the “experts” say it is so.


12 posted on 03/22/2010 8:20:26 PM PDT by Seruzawa (If you agree with the French raise your hand - If you are French raise both hands.)
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To: wendy1946

We need to find simpler explanations to the universe.


13 posted on 03/22/2010 8:26:29 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Yammoto:I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.)
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To: Feline_AIDS
The way good science is -- the more we learn, the more we understand that we don't know all that much.

Good science answers little questions with each new discovery, but raises millions of other questions we never considered before.

We need to keep searching, but the more we learn, the more humble we should feel.

14 posted on 03/22/2010 8:28:44 PM PDT by Ditto (Directions for Clean Government: If they are in, vote them out. Rinse and repeat.)
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To: brytlea

Fits my scheme of things unknown.


15 posted on 03/22/2010 8:29:19 PM PDT by Buddy B (MSgt Retired-USAF - Year: 1972)
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To: wendy1946
Gravity is the weakest force in nature and does not control the cosmos, period.

Ok, if not gravity then what other physical force creates the large-scale structures that we see in the cosmos?

16 posted on 03/22/2010 8:30:39 PM PDT by Gideon7
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To: Nosterrex

yep - for short response!


17 posted on 03/22/2010 8:31:58 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: Feline_AIDS

Now the same team has found that the dark flow extends even deeper into the universe than previously reported: out to at least 2.5 billion light-years from Earth.

ok no more Rosie O’Donnell period jokes.


18 posted on 03/22/2010 8:32:06 PM PDT by ari-freedom (Yammoto:I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant and fill him with a terrible resolve.)
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To: Feline_AIDS
streaming in the same direction at more than 2.2 million miles (3.6 million kilometers) an hour.

Sounds like the speed at which the Obama faction is spending America's future.

19 posted on 03/22/2010 8:34:30 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (TATBO - "Throw All The Bums Out")
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To: Seruzawa

yep - for a short answer
money - for a concrete answer
prove it - for a non answer


20 posted on 03/22/2010 8:35:02 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: Seruzawa
String and Multiverse Theory are basically forms of Theology

Agreed. If a theory is not experimentally falsifiable then it is not a true scientific theory. It is merely a belief system.

String Theory has so many unknown parameters that you can basically build any universe you want by just fiddling with the knobs in the equations. It doesn't have any real predictive value.

21 posted on 03/22/2010 8:39:18 PM PDT by Gideon7
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To: Feline_AIDS

Uhg, this crap makes my head hurt. All I’ve ever wanted to know is, assuming the universe is finite, what’s on the other side? Has there ever been an astro-physicist that answered this question?


22 posted on 03/22/2010 8:50:54 PM PDT by oldvike (I'm too drunk to taste THIS chicken)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl

“What?” — or...is it “Who?”


23 posted on 03/22/2010 8:52:56 PM PDT by TXnMA (D'Aleo re Hansen's "GISS" temperature database: "Non Gradus Anus Rodentum!")
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To: oldvike
> Uhg, this crap makes my head hurt. All I’ve ever wanted to know is, assuming the universe is finite, what’s on the other side?

Aye, an' there's the rub.

There is no "other side" to the edge of the universe. The universe can be finite without having an "outside", if it wraps on itself like a Mobius strip in 3-D (or 4-D, or whatever-D).

> Has there ever been an astro-physicist that answered this question?

It's not a question, it's a misconception. :)

What's the difference between a duck?

24 posted on 03/22/2010 9:04:17 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: dayglored
Okay, you're post didn't help me any. LOL

This kind of reminds of a question I used to always ask my Mom when I was a child. I'd say "Where did God come from?" I forget how she answered it, but I'm sure the first time I asked it she was probably taken aback.

25 posted on 03/22/2010 9:10:09 PM PDT by oldvike (I'm too drunk to taste THIS chicken)
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To: oldvike
> Okay, you're post didn't help me any. LOL

Well, I wasn't trying to be all -that- helpful, since my answer was at least 50% tongue-in-cheek... glad you LOL'ed.

> This kind of reminds of a question I used to always ask my Mom when I was a child. I'd say "Where did God come from?" I forget how she answered it, but I'm sure the first time I asked it she was probably taken aback.

Kids ask the simplest darn questions. If only we, as adults, could begin to answer them... ;-)

26 posted on 03/22/2010 9:15:50 PM PDT by dayglored (Listen, strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government!)
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To: dayglored
Kids ask the simplest darn questions. If only we, as adults, could begin to answer them... ;-)

They do ask some doosies. Fortunately, most of the time they'll accept whatever B.S. answer we give. When it's all said and done, we look like geniuses to them. Suckers! :-)

27 posted on 03/22/2010 9:25:29 PM PDT by oldvike (I'm too drunk to taste THIS chicken)
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To: Gideon7
>Gravity is the weakest force in nature and does not control the cosmos, period.
>>Ok, if not gravity then what other physical force creates the large-scale structures that we see in the cosmos?


"Magnets"

28 posted on 03/22/2010 9:30:34 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Feline_AIDS

I like the theory myself. The commies have pissed me off enough to the point where I prefer to be crushed to a pulp and explode rather than decompose into nothingness.


29 posted on 03/22/2010 9:52:20 PM PDT by Hell to pay
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To: Feline_AIDS

>>>So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe.

It has been suggested before the universe is multiple times larger then we can observe. Not as a matter of dark matter, nor of multiverses. But “simply” that at the time of the Big Bang, the expansion began in ALL directions at very high speeds.

The acceleration of the portions of the universe opposite and receding from us added to the acceleration in the other direction of the portion of the universe where we reside may well add up to more then the speed of light. If so neither section of the universe can ever observe the other, though existing side by side.


30 posted on 03/22/2010 9:54:39 PM PDT by tlb
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To: OneWingedShark
Ok, if not gravity then what other physical force creates the large-scale structures that we see in the cosmos? Answer:
31 posted on 03/22/2010 9:54:43 PM PDT by Feline_AIDS (youngandright.wordpress.com)
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To: tlb
uh....the speed of the universes expansion is measured in red shift and its less than the speed of light...also, I think the Einsteins theory of space-time shows us you can not exceed the speed of light (though you can change the rate of time) You can mark this as a geek response.
32 posted on 03/22/2010 10:00:40 PM PDT by Magnum44 (Terrorism is a disease, precise application of superior firepower is the cure)
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To: Magnum44

>>>I think the Einsteins theory of space-time shows us you can not exceed the speed of light

True but nobody violates this barrier, as each region itself travels at lesser velocities. The theory is it is the cumulative velocity in opposite directions may reach a level that would exceed light speed, but no object by itself in its own perception would exceed light speed. Red shift applies only to the portions of the universe we can observe and measure. Beyond this theoretical horizon it would apply as well, if we could observe it. Instead all we can do is infer it by such indications as suggested in the article.

Or the theory may be nonsense. But it seems to tie in with the article.


33 posted on 03/22/2010 10:13:37 PM PDT by tlb
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To: SunkenCiv

for the string theory ping list


34 posted on 03/22/2010 10:32:59 PM PDT by Kevmo (So America gets what America deserves - the destruction of its Constitution. ~Leo Donofrio, 6/1/09)
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To: Magnum44

>uh....the speed of the universes expansion is measured in red shift and its less than the speed of light...also, I think the Einsteins theory of space-time shows us you can not exceed the speed of light (though you can change the rate of time) You can mark this as a geek response.

Thought Experiment:
You are God, creating a universe. In this universe you have ruled that physical objects may not exceed the speed of light. The Universe, though doesn’t exist [neither does time, but that’s another thought experiment...]. So you bring it into existence saying “Let there be light.” The universe is now defined by this ‘light’ which according to its nature is zipping along outwards from it’s starting-point, spherically, and thusly defining the edge and scope of the universe.

Now, [any] two photons opposite each-other on this sphere are both traveling at the speed of light, though in opposite directions and so in the linear dimension defined by those two points your new universe is expanding at TWICE the speed of light. Does this violate your rule of a light-speed speed-limit?


35 posted on 03/22/2010 10:40:28 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: Feline_AIDS

One must never forget the basic theory of Chuck Norris Relativity: Any object kicked by Chuck Norris will rise to a height that transcends the limit of any known or conceivable Universe.


36 posted on 03/22/2010 10:51:39 PM PDT by Gideon7
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To: Gideon7

bttt


37 posted on 03/22/2010 10:53:46 PM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: TXnMA

Indeed! Thank you for the ping, dear brother in Christ!


38 posted on 03/22/2010 11:25:30 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: max americana

Perhaps these aliens you speak of look like a teleprompter, so they think IT’S is the intelligent being in charge and we are all just some sort of pets or slaves.


39 posted on 03/23/2010 6:43:25 AM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: Gideon7

God


40 posted on 03/23/2010 6:45:30 AM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: oldvike
Fortunately, most of the time they'll accept whatever B.S. answer we give. When it's all said and done, we look like geniuses to them. Suckers! :-)

Is this an exact quote from Pelosi?

41 posted on 03/23/2010 6:47:44 AM PDT by brytlea (Jesus loves me, this I know.)
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To: OneWingedShark

No, I dont think so, but the state where the universe was all energy with no mass was only the tiniest fraction of a second. As soon as it converts to mass its slowing down very rapidly. Red shift today is a small fraction of speed of light. So very early on in the 13 or so billion years since the big bang, I suppose you could have relative velocities in opposite directions that exceed light, if you ignore the relationships with gravity and time that Einstein tells us need to be included.

Einsteins theory of space-time would say that the traveler on a ship moving at the speed of light outward in the universe would still see the light moving away on the other side of the universe doing so at the speed of light....yeah its strange. I think its because the travelers time is now infinitely slow.

I took my cosmology (yes, thats what the study of the origins of the universe is called...its not about cosmetics) classes many years ago, and its not the field I work in today, so if someone more experienced with Einsteins theory can elaborate, I am happy to be refreshed. :)


42 posted on 03/23/2010 6:48:57 AM PDT by Magnum44 (Terrorism is a disease, precise application of superior firepower is the cure)
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To: Kevmo; AdmSmith; bvw; callisto; ckilmer; dandelion; ganeshpuri89; gobucks; KevinDavis; ...
Thanks Kevmo! This is pingworthy on another list as well.

· List topics · post a topic · subscribe · Google ·

43 posted on 03/23/2010 4:40:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Fred Nerks; Swordmaker; 75thOVI; aimhigh; Alice in Wonderland; AndrewC; aragorn; aristotleman; ...
Thanks Kevmo!
 
Catastrophism
 
· join · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post new topic · subscribe ·
 

44 posted on 03/23/2010 4:41:59 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Feline_AIDS

.......So the researchers made the controversial suggestion that the clusters are being tugged on by the gravity of matter outside the known universe. .......

I concur, that is the most likely possibility.

The smoking gun that might propel them outward is missing.


45 posted on 03/23/2010 4:52:20 PM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 . Ostracize Democrats. There can be no Democrat friends.)
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To: wendy1946
Gravity is the weakest force in nature and does not control the cosmos, period.

It is true that gravity is a very week force. But it does becomes important when there is a large mass.

The gravity between atoms is insignificant because the mass is so mall. Between atoms electricity is a greater force, the source of chemical reactions. And at the subatomic level, gravity again is very insignificant because the mass is so small. Between subatomic particles, nuclear forces are extremely powerful, but they operate over very short distances.

But when there is a large mass like the sun, then gravity becomes a significant force in the surrounding space. And the gravitational force operates over very large distances. Over those large distances, electrical and nuclear forces are insignificant.

46 posted on 03/23/2010 4:56:07 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: Magnum44; OneWingedShark
Einsteins theory of space-time would say that the traveler on a ship moving at the speed of light outward in the universe would still see the light moving away on the other side of the universe doing so at the speed of light....yeah its strange. I think its because the travelers time is now infinitely slow.

In Newtonian physics, space and time are constant, but the speed of light is relative. So OneWindgedShark, when you added the two speeds of light, you were using Newtonian physics.

But from experiments in measuring light, we know that the speed of light is constant for all observers, regardless of their frame of reference or the source of the light. So Einstein in his theory of relativity simply stated the results of observation: space and time are relative, but the speed of light is constant. So Magnum44, are are mostly correct, and time does slow as you approach the speed of light. But infinite limits can only be approached; you can never get there.

47 posted on 03/23/2010 5:12:08 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: Magnum44; stripes1776

>In Newtonian physics, space and time are constant, but the speed of light is relative. So OneWindgedShark, when you added the two speeds of light, you were using Newtonian physics.
>
>But from experiments in measuring light, we know that the speed of light is constant for all observers, regardless of their frame of reference or the source of the light.

Yes, and if you add two constants together you get twice that constant. You HAVE to do this if you are measuring the expansion (either from the ‘center’, or ‘outside’) of that said universe in that said dimension. At no point is there ever any object in the model which exceeds the speed of light, in fact because the only objects ARE photons the only objects ARE traveling at the speed of light; the expansion is a concept, not an object.

>So Einstein in his theory of relativity simply stated the results of observation: space and time are relative, but the speed of light is constant. So Magnum44, are are mostly correct, and time does slow as you approach the speed of light. But infinite limits can only be approached; you can never get there.

What of light? That is, by definition, traveling at light-speed. I fail to see how considering light itself can invoke slower-than-light arguments/rules.


48 posted on 03/23/2010 5:25:59 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: oldvike

I’ll ask my daughter-in-law, she has a masters degree in astro-physics.


49 posted on 03/23/2010 5:26:37 PM PDT by brivette (paper)
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To: stripes1776

Gravity is only meaningful in closely confined systems like our own solar system or like one of us walking around on the surface of a planet. There isn’t any way gravity could hold two stars like our sun and AC together from 4 light years distance.


50 posted on 03/23/2010 5:27:13 PM PDT by wendy1946
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