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Posted on 03/23/2010 6:42:07 PM PDT by mlizzy
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I quite agree.
I was jabbing at the idiocies of some of the fantasies of some of the rabid clique folks who worship the organization more than God.
I respectfully disagree; works are an integral component to our salvation, as is faith through grace. God calls us to good works not only as an expression of our faith but also as a condition for salvation. James provides a reminder and discounts the belief of sola fides
“What does it profit, my brethren, even though a man say he has faith, and have not works? Can faith save him?” James 2:14 Here, the answer is no as a single condition. Again,
“Even so faith if it has not works, is dead, being alone.” James 2:17
These two passages are typical of the doctrine that both are required. Again, James accents this by further adding,
“Yes, a man may say, you have faith and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” James 2:18
“But will you know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” James 2:20
“Do you see that faith worked along with his works, and by the works the faith was made perfect?” James 2:22
“You see then how that by works, a man is justified, and not by faith only.” James 2:24
This passage sums up my point and is a summation that works are required, but not works alone.
If I ever run, that will be a better label than Republican.
JEDI-Washington sounds cool.
James. Every Catholic’s fall-back. Fortunately, James does not exist apart from the rest of Scripture. And, he can not be understood apart from the rest of Scripture. James speaks of faith without works being dead, but then talks about SHOW ME your faith without works and I’ll SHOW YOU my faith by my works. Without works, the word has no idea we are Christians. Works are an outward manifestation of what has already occurred inside. They do not save us. They justify our stance before men as Christians because they show that we are Christians.
2 Timothy 1:9
9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
5Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
7That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Romans 4:4-5: “Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness.”
Galatians 3:21-22: “For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.”
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; ...
9Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
I wouldnt necessarily discount James because you dont agree with him. His commentary is just as valid as other parts of scripture. James proves the point that both faith and works are necessary.
“So as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” James 2:26
What more could St. James have said to make it any clearer that faith and works go hand in hand?
These verses could not have been written any plainer, no works begets no faith. Why did St. James repeat himself in so many verses? Why does anyone repeat himself? They do it to drive home an important point. James didnt learn a different Gospel apart from the other Apostles.
Is it any wonder that Martin Luther called the Book of James a ‘straw epistle’? He removed it from its rightful position in his German translation of the New Testament, along with Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation, and placed them in an unpaginated index. These verses in James destroy his teaching of ‘Sola Fides’
But I dont just use James as an example, there are others even extra-Biblical sources:
“For His workmanship we are, created in Christ Jesus in good works, which GOD has made ready beforehand that we may walk in them.” Eph 2:10
“And if you invoke as Father him who without respect of persons judges according to each one’s work, conduct yourselves with fear in the time of your sojourning.” 1Pet 1:17
“For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Rom 2:13
“For GOD shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.” Eccl 12:14
Good works are needed along with faith...
Why do Catholics believe that good works are necessary for salvation? Does not Paul say in Romans 3:28 that faith “alone” justifies? The word ‘alone’ was injected by Martin Luther in his translation. If St. Paul, who writes fluently and uses many approaches to explain justification by faith, and who uses the words ‘faith’ and ‘alone’ many times in this very Epistle, meant to write ‘Faith Alone’, he most assuredly would have done so. Catholics believe that faith and good works are both necessary for salvation, because such is the teaching of Jesus Christ.
What Our Lord demands is ‘faith which works through charity’. (Gal 5:6).
Read Mt 25:31-46, which describes the Last Judgment as being based on works of charity.
Our Lord Himself said:
‘For the Son of man...will render to every man according to his works’, (Mt 16:27).
‘And whosoever shall give to drink to one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, amen I say to you, he shall not lose his reward’, (Mt 10:42).
Catholics believe, following the Apostle Paul, that ‘every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labor’, (1Cor 3:8).
‘For God is not unjust, that he should forget your work, and the love which you have shown in his name, you who have ministered, and do minister to the saints’, (Heb 6:10).
St. Irenaeus, one of the most illustrious of the primitive Christian Fathers wrote:
“For what is the use of knowing the truth in word, while defiling the body and accomplishing the works of evil? Or what real good at all can bodily holiness do, if truth be not in the soul? For these two, faith and good works, rejoice in each other’s company, and agree together and fight side by side to set man in the Presence of God”, (Proof of the Apostolic Preaching).
Again, St. Irenaeus echos the Church’s position and St. James. That both are necessary.
My priests are not exactly firebrands on anti-abortion. That saddens me.
14"To the angel of the church in Laodicea write:
These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God's creation. 15I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! 16So, because you are lukewarmneither hot nor coldI am about to spit you out of my mouth. 17You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent.
Irenaeus and Luther were but men. James is no more inspired than Paul and must be understood in his context. I had an entire response to your message that apparently got lost and now I don’t have time to respond; but, suffice it to say I never said works weren’t necessary to the Christian life. They are. They just don’t have a part in saving you. Second, Luther is being misquoted when the right strawy epistle is applied. He was doing a little textual criticism COMPARING James to other books. He later did not include this criticism and obviously believed it was Scripture because he preached from it for goodness sake!!!! James said faith without works is dead and the context is in the text if you will let it soak in. He said SHOW ME your faith without works and I’ll show you my faith by my works. Someone who says they believe but doesn’t have works does not have the fruit of truly being a Christian. If you are a Christian, your life will show that fruit. Absent that, there is no evidence you are a Christian at all. That’s James. That’s his meaning. It doesn’t contradict Paul. The Scriptures are harmonious.
I understand, I'm pretty tired of their hypocrisy. I have no doubt they will go back to worshiping their "queen of heaven" and claim some type of moral superiority. We see the hypocrisy. They are pro-life till it actually means doing something that the political elites don't want them to do then they always fold.
I know there were some Baptists that voted for this garbage. I would bet the majority of them come from Christian in name only churches. I know at my church our pastors would be having a conversation with them and they would not be welcome until they publicly repented.
The scripture is harmonious my friend so the context is always the same. James and Iraneaus spoke the same Gospel because that was the transmission of the faith then and the Magisterial teaching is now, the Church’s teaching on the matter has not changed and is firm. I know you never said works aren’t necessary, but we in the Church believe it is essential to salvation. :-)
Revelation’s whore of Babylon, anyone?
Going to church and proclaiming yourself a Christian while supporting the murder of unborn children doesn’t make you a Christian.
They may be fooling other people, but they cannot fool God.
And you are entitled to your belief. I just believe your and the Magisterial’s teaching is wrong. Unfortunately, the particular item that you are wrong about is of primary importance. Get it wrong and you’ve got everything wrong. There is no WAY my works are anywhere near good enough to even merit a glimpse of a Holy God’s favor. I know I’m a dirty rotten sinner, and even though I try to do good I do just the opposite far more than I would like to do. I can’t merit heaven even one iota. I needed Christ to stand in for me. It is His righteousness God sees and it is by His righteousness that I am saved. Now, I work, but not out of debt but out of love. I work not to try to do the impossible, bring about my own salvation, but in order to please the one who gave me salvation freely. All man made religions have man’s works meriting salvation at their core. Only true, biblical, Christianity does not.
Fine, but Christ founded my Church on St. Peter and promised to be with the Church until the end so it is not a man-made institution; it could not have survived close to 2000 years and not be divinely guarded in it’s teaching and faith and morals. This is the Magisterial teaching of the Church, infallible and constant as a rock. You can disagree with the Church’s teaching, that is your prerogative. But I have that divine assurance and I am confident and empowered because of it. The Church’s teaching is not fractured as Protestantism is. The Holy Spirit will guaranty it’s unity as Christ called for at the Last Supper.
Sadly, most Pentecostal leadership keeps a pretty hands off political issues except in their very closest personal relationships.
Unfortunately, the particular item that you are wrong about is of primary importance. Get it wrong and youve got everything wrong.
Christ founded the church on Himself. Christ is the chief cornerstone upon which all else is built. It was Peter’s confession that Jesus is the Christ that the church would be built on, not Peter himself.
And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
Christ is the cornerstone, but Christ founded it on Peter, not himself as St. Ambrose of Milan said in 387 A.D...
“It is to Peter himself that He says; “You are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My Church (Matt 16:18).” Where Peter is, there is the Church. And where the Church is, no death is there, but life eternal.”
Before that in the year 374 A.D., St. Jerome’s Letter to Pope Damasus says,
“I follow no leader but Christ and join in communion with none but your blessedness, that is the chair of Peter. I know that this is the rock on which the Church has been built. Whoever eats the Lamb outside this house is profane. Anyone who is not in the ark of Noah will perish when the flood prevails...He that is joined to the chair of Peter is accepted by me.”
Matt 16:18, “AND I SAY TO THEE, THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH.”
Here it says clearly, “upon”. So I am content that I have found that pearl, that treasure in the field. :-)
Matthew. 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this Rock I will build my church,shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
One method of Hermeneutical understanding of Matthew 16:18
is to do a word study of all the scriptures which were then known
as the Holy Word of G-d when Yah'shua spoke these words.
This will allow one to understand that all of the Holy Word of G-d
was inspired by YHvH; the whole counsel of G-d.
The only conclusion that one can come to unless you are
predisposed to believe in man's tradition over the Holy Word of G-d
is that Yah'shua was speaking of himself as the "Rock "
Peter himself refers to Yah'shua as the "rock" in
Genesis 49:24 But his bow remained steady, his strong arms stayed
[Or archers will attack...will shoot...will remain...will stay] supple,
because of the hand of the Mighty One of Jacob,
because of the Shepherd, the Rock of Israel,
Deuteronomy 32:3 I will proclaim the name of YHvH. Oh, praise the greatness of our God!
Deuteronomy 32:4 He is the Rock , his works are perfect, and all his ways are
just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he.
Deuteronomy 32:15 ..... He abandoned the God who made him and rejected the Rock his Saviour.
Deuteronomy 32:30 How could one man chase a thousand, or two put ten
thousand to flight, unless their Rock had sold them, unless
YHvH had given them up?
Deuteronomy 32:31 For their rock is not like our Rock , as even our enemies concede
Deuteronomy 32:32 Their vine comes from the vine of Sodom and from the fields of Gomorrah.
Their grapes are filled with poison, and their clusters with bitterness.
1 Samuel 2:2 "There is no-one holy [Or no Holy One] like YHvH;
there is no-one besides you; there is no Rock like our God.
2 Samuel 22:2 He said: "YHvH is my Rock , my fortress and my deliverer;
2 Samuel 22:3 my God is my Rock , in whom I take refuge, my shield and the
horn [Horn here symbolises strength.] of my salvation.
He is my stronghold, my refuge and my saviour from violent men you save me.
2 Samuel 22:32 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
2 Samuel 22:47 "YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God, the Rock , my Saviour!
2 Samuel 23:3 The God of Israel spoke, the Rock of Israel said to me:
'When one rules over men in righteousness, when he rules in the fear of God,
Psalm 18:31 For who is God besides YHvH? And who is the Rock except our God?
Psalm 18:46 YHvH lives! Praise be to my Rock ! Exalted be God my Saviour!
Psalm 19:14 May the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
be pleasing in your sight, O LORD, my Rock and my Redeemer.
Psalm 42:9 I say to God my Rock , "Why have you forgotten me? Why must I go about mourning, oppressed by the enemy?"
Psalm 78:35 They remembered that God was their Rock , that God Most High was their Redeemer.
Psalm 89:26 He will call out to me, `You are my Father, my God, the Rock my Saviour.'
Psalm 92:15 ..... "YHvH is upright; he is my Rock , and there is no wickedness in him."
Psalm 95:1 Come, let us sing for joy to YHvH; let us shout aloud to the Rock of our salvation.
Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH my Rock , who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.
Habakkuk 1:12 Oh YHvH, are you not from everlasting? My God, my Holy
One, we will not die. Oh YHvH, you have appointed them to
execute judgment; O Rock , you have ordained them to punish.
1 Peter 2:1-10NAsbU 1 Peter 2:It is patently clear from the Holy Word of G-d
1 Therefore, putting aside all malice and all deceit and hypocrisy and envy and all slander,
2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,
3 if you have tasted the kindness of YHvH.
4 And coming to Him as to a living stone which has been rejected by men, but is choice and precious in the sight of God,
5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices
acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
6 For this is contained in Scripture: "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone,
AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
7 This precious value, then, is for you who believe; but for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED,
THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone,"
8 and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word,
and to this doom they were also appointed.
9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION,
so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY,
but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
that the NAME "Rock" is a NAME that describes YHvH,
the creator of the universe.
To assign YHvH's NAME to a mere mortal,
a created being, seeks to impugn and
deny the Holy Word of G-d.
In the Catholic Church, Jesus is the second person of the Holy Trinity and therefore divine (God). What is clear is that he called Peter the “Rock” in Matthew’s Gospel. Jesus in this instance was not addressing himself, that’s patently absurd.
Jesus said, “Who do men say the Son of Man is?”
But they said, “Some say, John the Baptist; and others Elias; and others Jeremias,
or one of the prophets.”
He said to them, “But who do YOU say that I am?”
Simon Peter answered and said, “Thou art the Christ, the Son of the Living GOD.”
Then Jesus answered and said, “Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona, for flesh and blood has
not revealed this to thee, but My Father in Heaven.” (17)
This verse expresses a blessing for Peter from the Son.
Matthew 16:18: “And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The “rock” (Greek, “petra”) referred to here is St. Peter himself, not his faith or Jesus Christ. Christ appears here not as the foundation, but as the architect who “builds.” The Church is built, not on confessions, but on confessors - living men (see 1 Pt 2:5). Today, the overwhelming consensus of the great majority of all biblical scholars and commentators is in favor of the traditional Catholic understanding. Here St. Peter is spoken of as the foundation-stone of the Church, making him head and superior of the family of God - that is, the seed of the doctrine of the papacy. Moreover, “Rock” embodies a metaphor applied to him by Christ in a sense analogous to the suffering and despised Messiah (see 1 Pt 2:4-8; Mt 21:42). Without a solid foundation a house falls. St. Peter is the foundation, but not founder of the Church; administrator, but not Lord of the Church. The Good Shepherd (Jn 10:11) gives us other shepherds as well (Eph 4:11). What you are trying to do is disprove the very words of God when His words are clear. Going into Scripture to pick out “Rock” as it applies only to God is one thing, but in the New Testament, since Christ would ascend into Heaven, it was essential for Him to put Peter in charge as His stand-in, it is quite different.
You can believe the lie of the Evil One and follow the wide road.shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Seek the creator of the universe, it is all in His Holy Word.
Psalm 146: 3 Do not trust in princes, In mortal man,
in whom there is no salvation.
I will stick to the Church Christ founded thanks, and to the most Blessed Sacrament of the altar.
Why is it that only Catholics are held corporately responsible for whatever goes on in government????
That's another easy one...
We Protestants know that just because someone attends church or calls him/herself a Protestant doesn't necessarily mean every one is actually a Christian...
Your religion on the other hand, claims that ALL who are baptized into your religion are Christians and are the real Christians...No ifs, ands or buts...
The case has been made numerous times by you guys that the position of your religion is 100% anti-abortion...That it teaches and preaches the higher moral road...
But then, it is the spirit filled, baptized into your church, social justice Catholic Christians that gave us Obama, and now gave us a baby murdering health bill...
The country would be better of if most of you Catholics became atheists...Maybe the morality standard would raise a bit...
Yea, by killing the opposition...
The result of bishops not being bishops, and refusing to behave like pastors for too long. Actions have consequence.
I seek YHvH to provide me with His Salvation: Yah'shua. It is all explained in His Holy Word.
Mazol Tov ! shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
I seek YHvH to provide me with His Salvation: Yah'shua.
It is all explained in His Holy Word.
“I think Catholic clergy do not want the Mass to become chaotic by denying certain folks Communion;”
If that is true there is no church discipline.
“We are all sinners,” true but we are not all living in unrepentant sin. There is a difference. A huge difference.
In my little Presbyterian church, an abortionist would not be served communion. We don’t care if there is “chaos.”
The RC church would do a world of good if it would just start enforcing its own standards. I wish they would.
Shalom my friend!