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Military Cartridge Brass Destruction 2010 - Round 2
progunleaders.org ^ | 25 March, 2010 | Gary Marbut

Posted on 03/25/2010 4:48:38 AM PDT by marktwain

The cure that was arranged by Montana Senators Baucus and Tester to fix the intended military destruction of once-fired cartridge brass last year appears to be suffering from a fatal end-run.

Interested persons will remember that a year ago, helpful intervention by Montana's senators persuaded the Department of Defense to rescind a fresh DoD directive to military installation commanders requiring them to destroy once-fired brass, prior to selling it at auction into the civilian marketplace for ammunition reloading and other purposes.

An end-run is being done around the rescinding order through quiet and sweetheart side deals with installation commanders that is being aggressively promoted by ATK.

Some characters must be introduced to explain this story. ATK/Alliant Techsystems is the defense contractor that currently has the contract to operate the Army's huge Lake City Arsenal, the last government-owned facility in the U.S. for production of small arms military ammunition. While other contracts to operate Lake City have been cost-plus, the contract ATK arranged allows ATK to retain profits of operation. Although government/private partnerships always seem to be strange creatures, the nature of the government/ATK partnership may be stranger than most.

Government Liquidation is another private entity that has an exclusive government franchise to sell surplus military equipment, from all military installations nationwide, to all bidders.

Until recently, most used cartridge brass sales were put up for public bid through Government Liquidations, bids available to scrap metal purchasers, foundries processing brass, and specialized cartridge brass processors that reconditioned millions of surplus cartridge brass for sale to commercial reloaders of civilian ammunition, and to civilians for ammunition loading. The steady supply of reloadable brass from military sources has been a sizeable and essential component of the currently stressed ammunition market in the U.S.

Although the private Government Liquidations retains a fee for the auction services it provides, the bulk of income from Government Liquidations' sales of surplus military property is directed into the U.S. Treasury, to be reallocated and appropriated by Congress, as needed.

In a recent turn, ATK has been aggressively promoting sweetheart side deals with military installation commanders for those commanders to sell used cartridge brass directly to ATK (which ATK then renders unsuitable for reloading), the income from which is deposited, NOT into the U.S. Treasury for reallocation by Congress, but into accounts controlled by installation commanders for installation operation.

ATK even provides portable equipment to demil tons of cartridge cases at the military installations, destroying the brass for reloading purposes. Because the destroyed cartridge case brass is not suitable for reloading, it cannot command a price driven by auction for the highest-value use of reloading. Military installation commanders sell the Alliant-destroyed brass to ATK at a private, non-auction, special price. Commanders are willing to accept the reduced price because the sale proceeds go to the commanders' discretionary accounts and not back to the U.S. Treasury via Government Liquidations.

Quote from ATK program sales literature:

"Payment is made to Fort Irwin not DRMO [now Government Liquidations], so Fort Irwin utilizes the money that is generated from the Recycle project for other recycling efforts."

ATK, then, ships this destroyed cartridge brass to the foundries from which ATK gets new stock for manufacturing new cartridge cases, offsetting in significant part what ATK would otherwise pay the foundries, and thereby increasing ATK's profit from operating the Lake City Arsenal.

Government Liquidations suffers a substantial decrease in business since fired military brass has long been a most lucrative product they've traditionally handled.

Meanwhile, the big losers are the U.S. Treasury (U.S. taxpayers), and civilian ammunition consumers who will see higher prices and more shortages in the ammunition marketplace from this scheme. U.S. gun owners are effectively being taxed by this scheme to provide greater profits for ATK.

There is one additional motive at work here. In part, this juicy scheme is being sold to military installation commanders with the reasoning that "We cannot allow this reloaded ammunition to fall into the hands of militias." The sell-direct-to-ATK idea is being sold to installation commanders as a way to deprive imagined U.S. civilian enemies of firepower.

Quotes from ATK program sales literature:

"Currently handling brass scrap for ATK Lake City -- for sole purpose of recycling material and preventing any reloading of spent cases by the public with military grade brass."

"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users."

"To PREVENT anyone from using your scrap ammunition components for non-military purposes." (Emphasis in the original)

"Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case."

It's time to cure this problem finally with congressional action. The Montana congressional delegation is spooling up to address this issue. Senators and Representatives from other states need to join the Montana delegation in fixing this problem finally with congressional direction to DoD to require that all expended military brass of civilian-useable calibers generated domestically goes through the public auction process. This will benefit the U.S. Treasury, America's gun owners, and the adequacy of the ammunition marketplace.

- End -

ATK Solicitation for Ft. Irwin, .pdf

ATK Overview of Brass Solicitation, .pdf


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ammo; ammunition; banglist; barackhusseinobama; bhobanglist; brass; handloading; military; obama; reloading; shred
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1 posted on 03/25/2010 4:48:38 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Buy ammo now, it will soon be worth real money whereas dollars will soon be Obozo toilet paper.


2 posted on 03/25/2010 4:53:28 AM PDT by Tarpon ( ...Rude crude socialist Obama depends on ignorance to force his will on people)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
Brass, copper, lead.

The precious metals of the future.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

3 posted on 03/25/2010 4:56:36 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Joe Brower

You forgot to add blued steel.


4 posted on 03/25/2010 4:58:28 AM PDT by broken_arrow1 (I regret that I have but one life to give for my country - Nathan Hale "Patriot")
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To: Joe Brower

I can’t help but wonder in who’s hands all this metal is ending up.

We all know that someone will figure a way to get their hands on it and make a killing.


5 posted on 03/25/2010 5:02:35 AM PDT by basil (It's time to rid the country of "Gun Free Zones" aka "Killing Fields")
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To: Honeybunch

No more cheap ammo.


6 posted on 03/25/2010 5:03:07 AM PDT by OKSooner
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To: marktwain

Learn to reload, It will cut the cost of shooting substantially, provide you with high quality ammo tailored to your firearms and if you stock up a bit, insulate you from the vagaries of supply and demand.

And it’s fun.


7 posted on 03/25/2010 5:03:13 AM PDT by muddler (Obama is either incompetent or malicious, and it makes little difference which.)
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To: muddler

Bingo.
Just made another 500rnds of 5.56mm 55gr FMJ this weekend.

But, as we reloaders like to say;
“You don’t save money, you just shoot MORE.”


8 posted on 03/25/2010 5:04:41 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: basil; Joe Brower
well isnt that special...this would be a good thing on one hand in less dollars for vote buyin in congress and more discretionary funds for direct use at the bases and to lower costs for foundry materials as well...

on the other, the brass is already formed, the reloading tooling is already in place for the civie market to save those dollars and the continued use of purely 'new' raw materials would certainly keep the pool of brass increasin over time...

big problem with this is the premise of authorized users...

9 posted on 03/25/2010 5:13:44 AM PDT by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: basil
I can’t help but wonder in who’s hands all this metal is ending up.

Read the article.

10 posted on 03/25/2010 5:14:10 AM PDT by Erik Latranyi (Too many conservatives urge retreat when the war of politics doesn't go their way.)
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To: marktwain

Is the ballon going up? Is this all part of the Obama strategy to control the population?


11 posted on 03/25/2010 5:16:04 AM PDT by Obadiah (ObamaCare = VA hospitals for everyone)
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To: marktwain

ATK produces a number of “civilian” ammunition products (Blazer, CCI, Federal, Speer, etc.). Perhaps we should help those subsidiaries to become less profitable.


12 posted on 03/25/2010 5:41:34 AM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: marktwain

bttt


13 posted on 03/25/2010 5:43:49 AM PDT by Charlespg
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To: marktwain

We want our military brass.

when do we want it.

Now!


14 posted on 03/25/2010 5:45:39 AM PDT by devistate one four (If you can't feed it, don't breed it! Kimber CDP II .45 OOHRAH! TET68)
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To: Erik Latranyi

I know what the article says-—but I’m thinking that everything is not always done as it’s supposed to be done, nor as we are told it is being done.


15 posted on 03/25/2010 5:49:26 AM PDT by basil (It's time to rid the country of "Gun Free Zones" aka "Killing Fields")
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To: marktwain

Obama probably ORDERED base commanders to work with ATK, then ordered base commanders to forward payments directly to the US treasury. This is how they are getting around Congress.

This came from Obama himself, and only Obama himself.


16 posted on 03/25/2010 5:51:27 AM PDT by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: marktwain

bflr


17 posted on 03/25/2010 5:53:08 AM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists...Call 'em What you Will, They ALL have Fairies Living In Their Trees.)
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To: Charles Martel
the article doesn't really address that aspect. ATK is successfully manipulating the civilian market to increase their profits in addition to the rest of the scheme.
18 posted on 03/25/2010 6:10:07 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: marktwain
Commanders are willing to accept the reduced price because the sale proceeds go to the commanders' discretionary accounts and not back to the U.S. Treasury via Government Liquidations.

These commanders need to be relieved of command until a full audit of their "discretionary accounts" shows where this money went.

There also must be an audit to find out how much money the tax payers lost by these commanders taking a lower price for the brass. I'd be in favor of making them pay the government the lost money out of their personal incomes.

19 posted on 03/25/2010 6:20:46 AM PDT by SUSSA
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To: Joe Brower
You can never have too many bullets.
20 posted on 03/25/2010 6:46:26 AM PDT by paulcissa (The first requirement of Liberalism is to stand on your head and tell the world they're upside down)
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To: marktwain
"Assurability for the [military] installation, that no one can use this cartridge against law enforcement or our military personnel, by reloading the case."

Oh yeah man, all that reloaded brass has really been a problem. Haven't you noticed?

21 posted on 03/25/2010 7:05:37 AM PDT by oyez (The difference in genius and stupidity is that genius has it limits.)
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To: marktwain
"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users

)Oh, that's something new. I didn't know you had to be authorized to reload ammo.

22 posted on 03/25/2010 7:08:45 AM PDT by oyez (The difference in genius and stupidity is that genius has it limits.)
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To: oyez

Get that?
They want to make sure this brass is never used against a government agent.

Moreover,

They want to make sure that no citizen is able to defend themselves against a government agent.


23 posted on 03/25/2010 7:15:07 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: marktwain

ATK are a bunch of government-sucking, anti-competitive a$$****s who are selling out gun owners. They should be boycotted.

That means to AVOID BUYING “FEDERAL”-branded cartridges.


24 posted on 03/25/2010 7:15:12 AM PDT by Atlas Sneezed (Anything worth doing, is worth doing badly at first.)
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To: marktwain
"Keeps Military Grade Brass from being re-loaded by unauthorized users."

Unauthorized users? UNAUTHORIZED USERS?? We owned the damn stuff while we were letting THEM use it!

25 posted on 03/25/2010 7:16:08 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: SJSAMPLE
To anybody that's not a hand loader, 500 rds sounds like a lot of ammo. To a hand loader it's simply an afternoons fun.

I load 19 different rounds/calibers.

26 posted on 03/25/2010 7:58:47 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: marktwain

Something about this story doesn’t compute.

Isn’t there an ammo manufacturer in Georgia that is a heavy user of cartidge cases?

We should chekc with them.


27 posted on 03/25/2010 8:00:54 AM PDT by texmexis best
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To: texmexis best

I think that company is called Georgia Arms.


28 posted on 03/25/2010 8:03:11 AM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: IMR 4350

Waaaay too many for me.
I’ve reloaded about twelve different cartridges over the years, but now I’m back to the basics.

I finally ditches 357SIG (poorly designed cartridge) and I no longer reload .30-30 or .270 Win for hunting.

Now, it’s just 9mm, .40SW, .45ACP and 5.56mm.
Although, I might buy another .357 magnum and return to handloading for it.

And my Dillon XL650 makes 500rnds in about 2 hours, including setup and prep ;)


29 posted on 03/25/2010 8:20:46 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: texmexis best

Black Hills?


30 posted on 03/25/2010 8:21:29 AM PDT by SJSAMPLE
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To: SJSAMPLE

I’ve been loading over 30yrs, still using single stage. I’d find a gun with a good price, in a caliber I didn’t have, then get it just to experiment with the round. The only one I’m not to crazy about is the .32mag. The .32-20 will do everything it will do and then some, but it’s still fun.


31 posted on 03/25/2010 8:41:35 AM PDT by IMR 4350
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To: Charles Martel

“ATK produces a number of “civilian” ammunition products (Blazer, CCI, Federal, Speer, etc.). Perhaps we should help those subsidiaries to become less profitable.”

They also own RCBS - one of the largest RELOADING supply companies. On hold with them now over this.


32 posted on 03/25/2010 9:31:17 AM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: Favor Center
Dang, didn't realize they owned RCBS. I have an *old* Rock Chucker and some dies, but most of my more recent hardware is from Dillon.

Yep, scratch RCBS off the shopping list until/unless this is resolved.

33 posted on 03/25/2010 9:35:34 AM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: Charles Martel

“Yep, scratch RCBS off the shopping list until/unless this is resolved.”

RCBS was just made aware this morning. I was told their GM was very interested in it.


34 posted on 03/25/2010 9:40:27 AM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: Favor Center

“RCBS was just made aware this morning. I was told their GM was very interested in it.”

Calling Alliant Powder now.


35 posted on 03/25/2010 9:43:47 AM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: OKSooner
No more cheap ammo.

Hasn't been for some time.

36 posted on 03/25/2010 11:45:39 AM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: marktwain
Congress can fix this in one of two ways. First would be to allow the installations to keep the money, no matter who the once fired brass or other surpluss material is sold to. They'd get more selling it as formed catridge cases than as scrap metal. The other way is not to allow these sorts of "back channel" private deals, and require the money that they would get from ATK to go into the general fund just as the other surplus sales do now.

I prefer the first solution, it keeps the money "at home" as it were, rather than allowing it to be spent on health care for Welfare Queens.

37 posted on 03/25/2010 11:49:56 AM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: basil
I can’t help but wonder in who’s hands all this metal is ending up.

The article says it goes back to the foundries were ATK buys their metal from. Presumably it in effect gets turned into brand new cases.

What I can't figure out is why the military doesn't have it reloaded and the marked as "Training only". Most of it is generated that way in the first place. That way the military would get the benefit of reloading savings. They need all the budget help they can get these days.

38 posted on 03/25/2010 11:53:45 AM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: oyez
Oh, that's something new. I didn't know you had to be authorized to reload ammo.

Only if it is 20mm or larger. :)

I guess you'd have to be authorized for the Russian 14.5 mm too, since that is over .50 caliber too.

39 posted on 03/25/2010 1:15:49 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: marktwain
ATK Solicitation for Ft. Irwin, .pdf ATK Overview of Brass Solicitation, .pdf

The Ft. Irwin document is dated July 2008. No date that I could find on the other one. Is it possible that these are from the "must demill" period?

One statement makes me think it might be. In the "ATK Overview of Brass Solicitation" they talk about DOD416021M1 requiring the demilling of ammo. But we know that requirement was changed (by changing the categorizatoin of fired cases to one not requiring demilling. Still, even if it was, I'm none too happy about the "authorized users" and "non-military purposes"

40 posted on 03/25/2010 2:47:22 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Joe Brower

IMHO. Gold, lead, and chickens.


41 posted on 03/25/2010 3:05:52 PM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: stevio
A metal chicken?


42 posted on 03/25/2010 3:07:54 PM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: marktwain

It’s depressing, how much this country has changed. I used to shoot in DCM (Director of Civilian Marksmanship...now the CMP) matches up to the late 80’s. These took place at our local rifle range, and match shooters were ISSUED M2 Ball ammo in bandoleers of en bloc clips. We were permitted to keep the brass, clips and bandoleers Many shot their own loads at the match and kept the M2 they gave us for practice. Patricia Schroeder (D Colorado) was at the vanguard of putting an end to that, saying that the government shouldn’t be providing ammunition to civilians. Funny, back then I sometimes thought that the country couldn’t get any more screwed-up.


43 posted on 03/25/2010 3:38:53 PM PDT by VR-21 (Bring me my broadsword, and clear understanding. Bring me my cross of gold as a talisman.)
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To: Joe Brower

>Brass, copper, lead.
The precious metals of the future.<

Evidently so. I was at Gander Mtn. earlier this week picking up some Hornady “Critical Defense” ammo for my wife. Saw a package of 100 empty brass 9 mm. at $39.00!

I’m rich!!


44 posted on 03/25/2010 4:22:17 PM PDT by panaxanax (The time has come (3-21-2010) for TEA Party Patriots to get an attitude.)
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To: broken_arrow1

I am a proponent of parkerized steel myself.


45 posted on 03/25/2010 4:41:53 PM PDT by Blood of Tyrants (The US will not die with a whimper. It will die with thundering applause from the left.)
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To: Joe Brower

That sure is a purty chicken, but I’m talking the eatin’ and layin’ kind.


46 posted on 03/25/2010 7:03:41 PM PDT by stevio (Crunchy Con - God, guns, guts, and organically grown crunchy nuts.)
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To: IMR 4350
What would you put as the cost of setting up to reload say, a couple of calibers to start? 3-4 grand?

I used to love shooting my potato gun, half the fun was 'loading' it correctly to get the greatest distance, and laugh at the novice whose 'load' would travel about twenty feet.

California made it a felony to own one about the same time my stepson broke it. Launching a potato 60-80 yards was fun. California is not fun.

47 posted on 03/25/2010 8:56:54 PM PDT by budwiesest (It's that girl from Alaska, again.)
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To: Joe Brower

I’ve seen that steel chicken at the corner of Madison Ave and Hazel Ave in Fair Oaks, Ca.


48 posted on 03/25/2010 9:08:56 PM PDT by budwiesest (It's that girl from Alaska, again.)
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To: budwiesest

“What would you put as the cost of setting up to reload say, a couple of calibers to start? 3-4 grand?”

Divide by 10... and that’s if you want quality tools and don’t care about speed so much. Even if you want “fast” (sub-commercial like a Dillon) stuff, it’s not that expensive.

You can get setup to reload for about $200 or so. Die sets for a caliber are usually $30 to $40 after that.


49 posted on 03/25/2010 9:46:49 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: Favor Center
Thanks, I don't know why I thought it'd be much higher. I've read some articles in G&A on reloading but never priced stuff. After testing loads and charting them, there was always a disclaimer warning readers that you should follow guidelines on each load- that their tests weren't standard or somesuch.

One article on high-powered rounds I'll never forget was about elephant gun loads being less expansive which gave the shooter a better chance to eject the empties (they'd just fall out) and cram a couple more in quickly, just in case. I think these were English doubles that were old style (and expensive).

50 posted on 03/25/2010 10:40:33 PM PDT by budwiesest (It's that girl from Alaska, again.)
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