Skip to comments.Apple and Microsoft get trashed by hackers again
Posted on 03/27/2010 11:48:17 AM PDT by for-q-clinton
DESPITE THE RABID CLAIMS of Apple fan boys that its software is more secure than anything else on the market, Jobs' Mob products were the first to be trashed again at a Pwn2Own hacking competition.
In fact flaws in the Iphone OS and zero-day vulnerabilities in Apple's Safari 4 web browser made a mockery of Apple's advertising.
Flaws were also found in Mozilla Firefox and Internet Explorer 8 but apparently hackers had some trouble getting around exploitation mitigations in Windows 7, although eventually they did.
Vincenzo Iozzo and Raif Weinmann were the first to successfully hack a mobile device, exploiting a flaw in the Iphone Safari browser to run SMS messages to a remote web server.
Researcher Charlie Miller, principal security analyst at Independent Security Evaluators, quickly exploited a vulnerability in the desktop version of Safari running on Mac OS X. He won $10,000 for the exploit, which was one of 20 zero-day bugs that Apple fanbois deny exist in OS X.
Miller's exploit opened up a remote shell, which he accessed and was able to run any malicious code he wanted. We guess it just worked!
Miller has said in the past that he is unhappy with Jobs' Mob's secure software development processes. While he will be telling them that the flaw that won the competition for him, he will be sitting on the other 19. Perhaps it will act as an incentive for Apple to get off its lazy arse and develop a security policy with some meaning rather than screwing around with punters while at the same time insisting they are safe.
Miller said discovering the 20 zero-day vulnerabilities took him only three weeks using three computers, so who knows what he would have found if he had kept looking.
Microsoft's Internet Exploder 8 eventually got turned over and Peter Vreugdenhil managed to get past its insecurity mitigation technologies. The flaw can be exploited if a user browses to a malicious website.
Fireferret was also successfully exploited by bypassing ASLR and DEP.
UK-based MWR Infosecurity targeted a memory vulnerability. It started a calculator on a laptop running Windows 7.
The most secure web browser out there was Google's Chrome 4 running on Windows 7.
No one bothered to take down Google's Nexus One, a RIM Blackberry Bold 9700 or a Nokia E72 device running Nokia's Symbian OS.
Very interesting. Has Mac finally gotten enough of a userbase to make it worth attacking? If so, I can see a ton of Apple zealots eating a lot of crow. Well technically they should already be eating it.
Bottomline: All software is vulnerable and security by obscurity isn't security at all.
Macbots in 3...2...1...
Nope. I had some other threads and they are staying miles away from these threads. They are either too busy eating crow or are too distraught to post/read as their savior Steve Jobs has let them down and lied to them.
It's the target, not the OS, that decides the “popularity” of the victims.
With Apple holding a relatively small base of users vs. Microsoft and those users with few exceptions mainly using it for personal, or in the area of business, creative use, they were a small target economically or otherwise.
Exactly. So I wonder if Windows is really a much more secure platform now? I know MS has put a lot of time and money into improving their platform and their patching process.
Can apple’s update cycle match that of Microsoft’s?
As far as secure, every OS goes through vulnerability cycles during it's life time, with the lowest most secure points being right before it goes End of Life of course.
Windows 7 does show MS first real effort at starting out secure. As it remains out on the market vulnerabilities will be exposed, it be less secure than competitors for a bit, get patched be more secure, etc. etc.
What’s a “apple”?
The company that makes iPhone, Mac OSX, iPad, etc...
I’m sure that this is a dumb question, but how does one know he has been hacked.
All my Macs seem to be working as usual.
This will be fun to see Swordmaker and the other Macbots or FR spins this one.
Swordmaker and ANtirepublicrat will be here but they will spin it. Wait for it...
No, Windows isn’t a “much more” secure platform now.
One of the problems with these sorts of “analysis” by bystanders to computer security is that they don’t ponder the question of “what would happen if Charlie Miller decided to go after Windows?”
Let’s back up a sec. Charlie Miller worked for the NSA for five years. That sort of experience gives him a big leg up on many DIY hackers in that the NSA has a large internal base of experience on cracking systems of all sorts. Let’s just say that it is obvious that Miller learned a trick or two in his time at Ft. Meade.
Why is Miller focusing on OS X? Because he analyzed the contest and took the path which offers him the highest probability of getting the $10K payoff. There aren’t that many hackers looking at the Mac as an attack target, but there are a bunch of hackers who have looked at Windows, and a few more than the Mac who go after Unix-variant systems because they’re used as servers and back ends. Fewest competitors means highest probability of winning the contest and taking home some cash.
As a student of info security issues (and a certification at the moment), I understand that hackers will target what feeds their need. That need might be money, fame (infamy), or any other impetus. Because that is the case, as the number of systems of a certain operating system/application increases, the risk increases.
There is NO such thing as a completely secure system unless it is powered off, smashed to pieces, and buried in the backyard.
So you are claiming Charlie Miller is the best hacker in the world and that he dwarfs all Windows hackers?
Get real. He’s a very good hacker but not the best. And he’s targeting OS X because Steve Jobs has been lying about their security and it’s footprint is now big enough worthy of a respsonse to protect its users. The NASA angle is stupid. I know many people that have worked for NASA, most are pretty smart, but not extremely smart. In most cases my IQ was higher than theirs (when that subject came up). So I’m not sure what working at NASA has to do with anything.
But you’re right there are a lot more script kiddies exploiting old vulnerabilities in windows than in OS X.
What? WHAT? Say it aint so, Steve, you little Liberal Prick.
No, I’m not. And thanks for erecting such a fabulous strawman.
I read Miller’s reasons (which he openly disclosed) about why he’s targeting OS X and Safari a couple years ago when he started. It was as I said: He’s looking for the highest probability of getting the payoff - this is a contest, after all, with a tidy cash prize.
WTF are you talking about “NASA?” I said “NSA” - not “NASA.”
If you are at a level where you conflate the NSA with NASA, then you know nothing about computer security.
I misread your NASA point, but I too know people in NSA and once again the same argument holds true there as well ;-)
Typically it’s a few extremely bright people and then a lot of smart people who take that and put the message out.
Must have been that graphic right below your post that had my mind translate NSA to NASA.
He’s smarter than your average 5th grader.
Maybe it's because you have a higher IQ than most of the people at NASA and NSA?
Touche. I was asking for that. But I can’t lie about the facts and I do worth with people from NSA all the time in my line of work.
It’s time for me to take a break. Worth = work.
That is partly true.
In my interaction with them while I worked at cisco, I found them to be very capable people, who thought about security in very non-conventional ways.
They told us, for example, that our first VoIP phone set had a mic and a cradle for the handset that made it a “nearly ideal” whole-room bug with a little tweeking of the code. They weren’t content to simply intercept phone calls - they were able to download their own code to the device and turn it into a very nice bug for a room.
Then they told us that they could tell what code and data was running in a router - a device that is contained within a completely shielded aluminum box (for FCC certification, don’t you know) by remotely “listening” to emissions from the bus.
I’ve not yet seen that sort of sophistication in the “private sector” of hacking.
As someone who quit the tech industry over (in part) the white-wash that is “security,” I’ll offer this observation:
The single biggest impediment to real security are users.
Real security requires constant vigilance and (to use a somewhat ‘extreme’ description of behavior) paranoia. In the online world, yes, there are people who “out to get you.” All the time, every day, on every platform, for all manner of reasons.
When we in the computer hardware/software/networking industries try to impose some “mandated” security, all we get is a ration of crap from users.
I’ll give you an example: automatically enforced password changes. This is so simple to implement, yet yields such a big payback, you’d have to wonder “Why aren’t automatic password changes enforced all over corporate systems?” Well, because the users howl when you force them to change passwords. They come up with all manner of silly reasons why they can’t remember a new password.
Of course, any hacker worth their salt knows that the easiest line of attack on a multi-user system (and on laptops with passwords) is you try the name of the users: spouse, kid, pet dog, mother, father, etc. IN a guess chain of about 5 passwords, you’re into at least a third of accounts.
Let’s take browser security as another example, but switch our focus to development groups: Java was created by Sun’s engineers to be pretty secure. In the original design of Java, they put a LOT of effort into security.
Look at MS’s stubborn adherence to “active content” - the idea that you can receive a email message or surf to a web page and the message or page can cause things to execute on your computer. This is a security hole so big you can drive a M1 Abrams through it. MSFT has added one slap-dash change on top of other slap-dash changes in this idea - when the most secure thing to do would be eliminate it entirely. MSFT wants to keep their “active content” as a sales feature, and many users now want active content because it means you can have pretty dumb users. Consider the Windows Update script and how powerful it is. You can have your users just surf to the proper URL and the user’s computer is then updated. No training necessary, the scripting does everything. The solution to this would be to require users to bridge the gap between content downloading and execution. People don’t want to do it.
Lastly, let’s talk about programmers/engineers. They’re HARDLY blameless here for their slothful attitude towards security. What is the predominate programming language today? C and its successor, C++.
Having people write large, critical applications in C is like giving kids amped up on Jolt cola a handgun with which to play their shoot-em-up video games.
Having people write large, critical applications with C++ is like giving them a couple of pounds of high quality Peruvian Marching Dust and a squad automatic weapons. The results are predictable.
Could programmers create secure s/w in C/C++? Sure - with a GREAT deal of attention to detail. A faster way of getting programmers to think about security and reliability by enforcement would be to have them start writing software in Ada or a similarly strongly-typed language, or some programming environment that encourages or imposes constraint-based programming. Ah, but having the compiler or environment “enforce” good, consistent tight programming practice gets all manner of belllyaching from programmers - so we don’t do it until it is an application where people will almost certainly die from programming mistakes.
As you said, we can’t achieve a “completely secure system” - but the gap between where we are and a “reasonably secure system” is huge - and largely one of choice that we’d rather be standing on this side of the canyon with those who want to pillage and plunder because it is more convenient.
The last few attempts at placing viruses on my daughter's laptop via the internet came through iTunes.
THEY could make it so that remote takeover of your operating system was impossible.
However, that would mean THEY couldn’t take remote control of your operating system.
That is the quandary.
My good computer was made into a paperweight by Windows updates.
It’s funny you mention that. I swear the chicoms have a mic bug on my lenovo thinkpad. When I put on my headphones I can hear the feedback of the onboard mic through the headphones. My airplane noise cancelling headphones don’t work because the white noise is fed back through the built in mic. And it even does it when I even have the built in mic disabled. I truly do wonder if they have another inline mic set to capture room sound and they can control it if needed.
I know some people will place a cut mic jack in their PCs to prevent any snooping but I think my thinkpad will still capture sound if that is done. If I wanted to waste the money I’d crack it open and do some internal diagnostics. You know that would be a pretty big news story to find out if my lenovo thinkpad had a mic bug in it.
If you want on or off the Mac Ping List, Freepmail me.
Yawn. They are ever so hopeful. Rigged tests usually get the result you’re looking for.
after 28 years of never using any virus software, or being hacked, am I now supposed to worry?
using Macs to run our business, with no IT expenses, since 1982 (this li’l uneducated mom of 4 being to “go-to” girl), is it now time to get “skeered”?
Lifetime Mac user. No virus software ever. The only problem I ever had was a MS Word macro virus. Get back to me when something actually makes it out into the wild on Apple computers and causes the same kind of problems that have been endemic on MS products from day one. I don’t care about any underlying reason.
How was it rigged?
Where are the details on the exploit? Did anything other than Safari get corrupted on the Mac?
What I was wondering.
Re: Anti-virus... Do you have an estimate of how many Macs are currently active on the internet? I know it's over 30,000,000, and probably over 40,000,000; has it hit 50,000,000 yet?
Reason I ask is that sooner or later the number of Macs is going to cross a threshold -- you know, that elusive magic number -- where the virus writers get interested enough to start writing viruses for OS-X, and Macs will have to start running anti-virus software.
Given that a successful botnet only requires perhaps 50,000 machines, and a million machines is considered huge, and virtually NONE of the Mac users have any anti-virus protection, and they're all running with administrative-level privilege, and they're mostly non-technical types who are NOT behind company firewalls, just cheap consumer NATs... I mean, that is such a ripe garden for picking... A thousand botnets worth of totally unprotected machines...
It puzzles me that the virus writers are so blind as to not seize that opportunity. Not one has done so, in many years of OS-X being out there in sufficient numbers. Mind-boggling.
Well, hopefully now that Charlie Miller has shown how trivial it is to crack OS-X (that was the point of the article, I think), I expect to see the new wild viruses rolling out any minute now. A dozen or so successful public in-the-wild self-replicating viruses would go a long way toward strengthening the rather weak "lack of popularity" and "security by obscurity" arguments.
Meanwhile, I now have Win7 on all my Win7 boxes in place of XP, and like it a lot -- use it all day, day after day, no reboots -- very stable. But I discovered that I still need XP for compatibility with some older apps, so I cranked up Win7's "XP Mode", which works really well -- very seamless. But then I realized I had to install antivirus in the XP-Mode guest virtual machine in addition to the antivirus in the Win7 host machine. That's a little frustrating. Two copies of anti-virus on one Windows box, and none on my Mac or Linux or Unix machines.
You know, if I worked for an anti-virus company, I'd post a reward, say $10,000 and a free Mac, to the first virus writer who uses Charlie Miller's (or any other) exploits to create and release a viable self-replicating OS-X virus. Anonymously, of course. Just to stir the pot a little, drum up some business... ya know.
Anyway, if you happen to know the number of active Macs, I'd be interested. If you want you can just FReepmail me a link or something. Thanks!
We’ve said before, any computer can be exploited. The questions are how easy is it to package the exploit for mass effect, and how much damage you can do once you get in. But, alas, we’re still waiting for the in-the-wild viruses and worms taking down any decent number of Macs. They do tend to remain in the lab. Also still waiting for the Mac botnets.
And, no, don’t bring out the failed numbers argument. Successful viruses have been written to specifically target systems with a far lower installed base than OS X’s 30 million, more like in the thousands.
It's a little under 50,000,000 right now... but that probably will be changing rapidly.
OSX passed the 30 million mark three years ago... and Apple has been selling approximately 10 million a year since then... Allowing for retirement and destruction of replaced machines, the current estimate is a little under 50,000,000 OSX Macs in operation.
One usually has to go to MSDNC to see this kind of quality reporting. Long on opinion, short on facts. Fact - many systems were beaten. Which took the longest - can’t really tell. Which leave users most vulnerable - again, can’t really tell. If nothing else, I hope the authors ax is now sharp...
I read that Mac OS X with Safari was the first to be beaten (at least of the computer type systems...iPhone may have been actually the first though).
A little more info at this link. Not sure why they aren’t including more detail, nerds eat this stuff up...
Yup. What I'd be most interested in learning is if any of the attacks elevated the attacker's privs to allow them to actually install software or (silently) make changes to the existing configuration. If it's just an overflow that crashes a browser, that's one thing. If it allws for the installation of a trojan, that's completely different. These are the types of details that would make the article actually informative, rather than just a pithy opinion piece.
Regarding it time involved for the hack, in this type of scenerio, it is really meaningless as these people come with prepared scripts and/or websites to exploit previously discovered defects. OTOH, if it takes someone 10 minutes from the start of the attack to the successful exploit, that would generally indicate the attack is impractical from an autmataed attacker's perspective.
These speed competitions are exciting, and make a lot of splash, but aren't all that useful for system comparisons. Any system can be compromised, given physical access to the machine. Every system.
We all realize that in a speed competition like this, it's really about how prepared the hacker is, how quickly their script runs, etc. The simplicity or complexity of the exploit has little to do with it, since these are all scripted and practiced ahead of time. The time it takes to execute actually has very little relevance to the relative security of the system -- ANY compromise is a compromise. And every system can be compromised if you have physical access to it.
Almost every existing real virus is based on OLD exploits, in systems that aren't patched, or whose operators allow them to be compromised. Very few real viruses are based on recently discovered exploits, and those that are, are extremely newsworthy.
Speaking as a life-long (58, since 1970) computer professional with decades of experience in ALL these systems, a more meaningful speed/time-releated measurement would be this:
Starting at the date/time of the competition, how long will it take for the successful exploit to be realized in a self-replicating virus?Right? Otherwise, who gives a damn? Seriously. We all know and agree that every system has flaws and can be compromised given physical access to the machine. What matters is whether it can be realized as a virus that can travel.
In that regard, Win7, OS-X, Linux, BSD, are all quite robust these days, and improving.
Anything less than a self-replicating virus is just wanking in the laboratory, and some marketing-driven contrived competitions based on having physical access to the box. Exciting? Sure. Meaningful? Not so much. Let's not confuse this sideshow with reality, which is tens of millions of computers in the wild, not one computer in a lab.
1. Apple fanbois (in article itself)
2. Apple zealots (in post #1)
3. Macbots (#3)
4. Swordmaker and the other Macbots (Specifc mention of fellow freeper at post #12)
So. We have 46 posts. 4 insults to people who use Apple computers. One aimed specifically at a fellow freeper. Zero similar insults aimed at MS-Windows users.
That means absolutely nothing... As I understand the rules, the time slots are drawn by lots except that last year's winner, if he is competing, always gets the first shot. Charlie Miller has been the winner for the last four years. That means that since Charlie Miler has the first 15 minute slot to make the first attempt. The rest have to wait their turn. Ergo, since he was up first, and he made his attempt at OSX, it got beaten first.
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