Posted on 03/29/2010 5:36:11 AM PDT by myknowledge
“And you have proof that Abdullah Yusuf Azzam was receiving funds or RPGs to fight the soviets? “
It is a well know fact:
In the 1980s, Azzam traveled throughout the Middle East, Europe and North America, including 50 cities in the United States, to raise money and preach about jihad. He inspired young Muslims with stories of miraculous deeds, mujahideen who defeated vast columns of Soviet troops virtually single-handed, who had been run over by tanks but survived, who were shot but unscathed by bullets. Angels were witnessed riding into battle on horseback, and falling bombs were intercepted by birds, which raced ahead of the jets to form a protective canopy over the warriors. [12]
In Steven Emerson’s 1994 television documentary Terrorists Among Us: Jihad in America, he showed a video of Abdullah Azzam in Brooklyn urging his audience to wage jihad in America (which Azzam explains “means fighting only, fighting with the sword”), and Fayiz Azzam (a cousin of Abdullah) tells an Atlanta audience: “Blood must flow. There must be widows; there must be orphans.”[13]
“I have read enough about Osama. He turned against the U.S. and the government of Saudi Arabia after the 1991 Gulf War when he offered Saudi assistance to protect them from Iraq and they spurned him and went to the U.S. for assistance. Long after the war in Afghanistan was over.”
So what are you saying, it was alright to support, finance and tolerate a well known jihadi group, as long as they are not acting against the US?
What?? There were dozens of islamic terrorist acts in the 80s. And here we have a group publicly calling for global jihad, on the US soil nonetheless.
“What kind of virgins do women get?”
72 vienna sausages? (D-oh!!)
“The question was, what terrorist act did the mujahadeen cause in the 80’s? “
What has that got to do with anything? His group announced a global jihad, gathered money and support for it. Actual terrorist acts by that particular group started in he 90’s, but there were other groups acting in the 80’s and earlier so that shouldn’t have come as a surprise to anyone.
You’re saying that taking part in planning a crime carries no responsibility until the actual crime is committed??
I knew you couldn’t answer the question, because it did not happen. You are now claiming one Mullah was all of the mujahadeen. It’s not true. The mujahadeen overall appreciated our efforts and support in Afghanistan in the 80’s to fight the soviet invader. You are trying to re-write history.
The original thing you attacked me for was that we supported Osama Bin Laden the terrorist and he’s turned around and bit us in the butt. He was not a terrorist when we supported mujahadeen where he was a foot soldier. Not the titular head of the largest terror organization.
Please go back to the kooks at the DailyKos and peddle this stuff. It won’t work here. The truth reigns here...
You people all live in a fantasy land if you think there is going to be some kind of overwhelming response that is going to turn parts of Chechnya into glass, etc.
The Chechen diaspora are very wealthy and powerful in Moscow. They are connected to the Russian gov’t on high levels, including the Kremlin’s lapdog in Chechnya, Kadyrov. His father was a rebel in the 1st Chechen war, fought against and killed many Russians, then he switched sides and found it more practical to back the Russians who in turn gave him the whole of Chechnya to rule in exchange for strategic allegiance to Moscow. As long as he maintains that allegiance and pro-Moscow relative “stability” in the region, they will allow him to do pretty much what he wants there.
The core interests of the ruling Chechen clans will never be threatened because of that. Nor will be their villages.
They WILL find someone responsible for this, likely some poor Chechens not affiliated with the powerful clans and make them a scapegoat for everything.
They will further use this opportunity to suppress freedom and civil society in Russia, citing “war against terror” as the reason for cracking down on various opposition groups.
And its not out of the realm of possibility that this entire event could have been a false flag staged by the FSB for the purpose stated above.
You people are very naive. Many things in Russia are not what they seem, or at the very least they have more than one level of meaning. Plots within plots, as Frank Herbert once said.
Russia and China have been holding joint war games every other year since 2005. The latest took place on July 22-27 of last year.
"Russia and China will hold their joint military exercise on July 22-27 on the territories of the two countries. About 3,000 military men, 300 units of military hardware, over 40 planes and helicopters will take part in Peace Mission-2009 drills. About 1,500 servicemen, T-80 tanks, BMP-1 and BTR-70 armored vehicles, 22 aircraft, including two Il-76 cargo planes, five Su-24, five Su-25, five Su-27 fighters and five Mi-8 helicopters will represent Russia in the drills."
http://www.russiansentry.com/?area=postView&id=1409
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Russia, China hold Peace Mission 2009 joint exercise
The exercise involves about 3,000 Russian and Chinese servicemen, nearly 300 units of army military equipment and over 40 fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. Photo: BMP-86A infantry fighting vehicles of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China.
http://en.rian.ru/photolents/20090724/155604547.html
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[2009] Russia, China plan new joint military exercises
By MARTIN SIEFF, UPI Senior News Analyst
Published: March 26, 2009
WASHINGTON, March 26 (UPI) -- The continuing tensions over Russia's refusal to sell its state-of-the-art land warfare advanced weapons systems to China hasn't interrupted the rhythm of major joint military exercises between the two major land powers on the Eurasian landmass. The latest in the regular, biennial series of exercises between the two nations has been confirmed for this summer.
The next in the now well-established series of exercises called Peace Mission 2009 will be carried out in northeastern China, the Russian Defense Ministry announced March 18, according to a report carried by the RIA Novosti news agency.
The first bilateral Peace Mission maneuvers -- described at the time as counter-terrorism exercises -- were held in Russia and the eastern Chinese province of Shandong in August 2005. As we reported at that time, they were a lot bigger than mere counter-terrorism exercises. Warships, squadrons of combat aircraft and more than 10,000 troops were involved carrying out landings against hypothetically hostile shores. The maneuvers also involved large-scale paratroops drops. The scale and nature of those exercises suggested a trial run for a possible Chinese invasion of Taiwan with Russian support. ..."
http://www.upi.com/Security_Industry/2009/03/26/Russia_China_plan_new_joint_military_exercises/UPI-25021238094858/
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Russia, China flex muscles in joint war games
August 17, 2007
CHEBARKUL, Russia (Reuters) - Russia and China staged their biggest joint exercises on Friday but denied this show of military prowess could lead to the formation of a counterweight to NATO.
"Today's exercises are another step towards strengthening the relations between our countries, a step towards strengthening international peace and security, and first and foremost, the security of our peoples," Putin said.
Fighter jets swooped overhead, commandos jumped from helicopters on to rooftops and the boom of artillery shells shook the firing range in Russia's Ural mountains as two of the largest armies in the world were put through their paces.
The exercises take place against a backdrop of mounting rivalry between the West, and Russia and China for influence over Central Asia, a strategic region that has huge oil, gas and mineral resources.
Russia's growing assertiveness is also causing jitters in the West. Putin announced at the firing range that Russia was resuming Soviet-era sorties by its strategic bomber aircraft near NATO airspace.
http://in.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idINIndia-29030120070817?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0
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War Games: Russia, China Grow Alliance
September 23, 2005
In foreign policy it’s critical to “know thine enemy.” So American policymakers should be aware that Russia and China are inching closer to identifying a common enemy — the United States.
The two would-be superpowers held unprecedented joint military exercises Aug. 18-25. Soothingly named “Peace Mission 2005,” the drills took place on the Shandong peninsula on the Yellow Sea, and included nearly 10,000 troops. Russian long-range bombers, the army, navy, air force, marine, airborne and logistics units from both countries were also involved.
Moscow and Beijing claim the maneuvers were aimed at combating terrorism, extremism and separatism (the last a veiled reference to Taiwan), but it’s clear they were an attempt to counter-balance American military might.
Joint war games are a logical outcome of the Sino-Russian Friendship and Cooperation Treaty signed in 2001, and reflect the shared worldview and growing economic ties between the two Eastern Hemisphere giants."
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Commentary/ed092605a.cfm
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From the Sino-Russian Joint Statement of April 23, 1997:
"The two sides [China and Russia] shall, in the spirit of partnership, strive to promote the multipolarization of the world and the establishment of a new international order."
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/HI29Ag01.html
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From National Public Radio (NPR):
August 29, 2006
"Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has been visiting countries such as China, Iran and Russia as part of an effort to build a 'strategic alliance' of interests not beholden to the United States. He considers the United States his arch enemy.":
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5729764
global jihad bump
All I'm saying is that the Russians and the Iranians sticking it to Israel and the US is OK with China. But I don't think that there is much love between the Soviets and the Chinese. Never has been and never will be. Each thugocracy is out for its own. The Russians don't like the Chinese and the Chinese hate the Russians for a number of reasons. Like , not supporting Mao in Korea, the Demansky Island and other perceived Russian "land grabs", they make sure the people have been propagandized against the Russians.
The Russians have a similar problem with the Chinese but not the financial muscle the USA has. The Chinese make and sell tons of stuff to the Russians cheaply and buy weapons and other incidentals all while under cutting the Russian economy.
The Russians have oil in the ground but are not developing it as quickly as is needed and I suspect that the Chinese would sure like to "share" the oil finds and lands currently in Russian hands.
Of course I could be wrong and we should all just figure out how to get a better NCAA bracket for next year, like TOFUS. Instead of trying to shore up allies in the region while the Chinese and Russians gobble up Venezuela and every other latin sh#thole in South America.
On that we agree.
I think you are onto something.
From Heritage.org:
"Joint war games are a logical outcome of the Sino-Russian Friendship and Cooperation Treaty signed in 2001, and reflect the shared worldview and growing economic ties between the two Eastern Hemisphere giants."
MOSCOW — Nearly two decades after the collapse of the Communist Party, Russia’s rulers have hit upon a model for future success: the Communist Party.
Or at least, the one that reigns next door.
Like an envious underachiever, Vladimir V. Putin’s party, United Russia, is increasingly examining how it can emulate the Chinese Communist Party, especially its skill in shepherding China through the financial crisis relatively unbowed.
United Russia’s leaders even convened a special meeting this month with senior Chinese Communist Party officials to hear firsthand how they wield power. ..."
“The accomplishments of China’s Communist Party in developing its government deserve the highest marks,” Aleksandr D. Zhukov, a deputy prime minister and senior Putin aide, declared at the meeting with Chinese officials on Oct. 9
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
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