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Army Report: GIs Outgunned in Afghanistan
Politics Daily ^ | 04/2/10 | David Wood

Posted on 04/03/2010 1:03:04 PM PDT by neverdem

American troops are often outgunned by Afghan insurgents because they lack the precision weapons, deadly rounds, and training needed to kill the enemy in the long-distance firefights common in Afghanistan's rugged terrain, according to an internal Army study.

Unlike in Iraq, where most shooting took place at relatively short range in urban neighborhoods, U.S. troops in Afghanistan are more often attacked from high ground with light machine guns and mortars from well beyond 300 meters (327 yards, or just over three football field lengths). The average range for a small-arms firefight in Afghanistan is about 500 meters, according to the study.

Unless U.S. troops under attack call in artillery or air strikes and risk civilian casualties, the only way they can fight back is with long-distance precision shooting -- a capability currently in short supply among infantry units, according to a study done at the Army's School of Advanced Military Studies at Fort Leavenworth, Kan., by Maj. Thomas P. Ehrhart.

According to Ehrhart's paper, Army infantrymen do not regularly train and practice shooting at distances of more than 300 meters. The round fired from their M4 carbines and M16 rifles, the 5.56mm bullet, don't carry enough velocity at long distances to kill.

While the Army has moved recently to equip each infantry company of about 200 soldiers with nine designated marksmen to overcome this problem, they don't often carry weapons with sufficient killing power at distance, and there aren't enough of them, Ehrhart reports.

Army spokesmen had no immediate comment on Ehrhart's paper, which was released by SAMS last month and given wider circulation by and the Kit Up! blog on

Most infantrymen in Afghanistan carry the M4 carbine, a version of the standard M16 rifle, but with a shorter barrel. It was designed to allow soldiers to operate from cramped armored vehicles and in the city neighborhoods of Iraq. But the shorter barrel robs the weapon of the ability to shoot accurately at long distances, because the bullet doesn't acquire as much stabilizing spin when it is fired as it does in a longer barrel.

Soldiers commonly are taught in training to use "suppressive fire,'' in effect returning enemy attacks with sprays of gunfire, which are often ineffective in Afghanistan.

One reason is the ineffectiveness of the most commonly used round, designated the M855. Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in the Middle East, was once accidentally shot in the chest with an M855 round from a light machine gun; rather than being killed, he walked out of the hospital several days later.

Ehrhart recalls seeing a soldier shot with a M855 round from a distance of 75 meters in training. Twenty minutes later he was "walking around smoking a cigarette.''

Such incidents may be flukes, but they do illustrate that the rounds can lack killing power. Most infantrymen are equipped to fire the M855 round from their M4 carbine, M16 rifle, or the SAW (Squad Automatic Weapon), a light machine gun. When a firefight erupts in Afghanistan, they are unable to fire back accurately at more than 200 or 300 meters, leaving it to soldiers with heavier weapons -- the M240 machine gun, 60-mm mortars or snipers equipped with M14 rifles.

"These [heavier] weapons represent 19 percent of the company's firepower,'' Ehrhart wrote, meaning that "81 percent of the company has little effect on the fight.

"This is unacceptable.''

One quick fix, he suggested, is to equip the designated marksmen within each company with a powerful weapon that can kill at long distances, the M110 sniper weapon, which is effective out to 800 meters.

These rifles are expensive -- about $8,000 apiece. But you could outfit every infantry squad in the Army with two M110 rifles for the price of one U.S. Air Force F-22 Raptor supersonic stealthy fighter, Ehrhart noted.

Ironically, American doughboys in World War I were better trained and equipped for Afghanistan-style firefights than today's GIs.

"The U.S. infantry weapon has devolved from the World War I rifle capable of conducting lethal fire out to 1,200 yards, to the current weapon that can hit a target out to 300 meters but probably will not kill it,'' Ehrhart wrote.

The School of Advanced Military Studies, where Ehrhart was a student last year, trains the Army's brightest young officers for senior leadership. His unclassified paper, written last year, does not reflect official Army positions. But the paper has rocketed around in military circles and has been read avidly in some units preparing to deploy to Afghanistan.

But even before his report began circulating widely, some Army units were acting on the hard-learned lessons from Afghanistan, where the Army has been fighting for almost nine years.

Several weeks ago I watched an infantry battalion of the 10th Mountain Division's 4th Brigade Combat Team working on live fire maneuvers in central Wyoming.

One key focus, according to Command Sgt. Maj. Doug Maddi, was to hone soldiers' skills in high-angle and long-distance shooting -- precisely the skills not widely required in regular Army training, according to Ehrhart.

Where normal Army marksmanship training is often conducted on level ground against pop-up targets, Maddi and the battalion commander, Lt. Col. Chris Ramsey, had their men shooting up towering ridgelines and down steep inclines, and at distances out to 600 meters.

The battalion's troops, wearing their full battle kit, also were firing live rounds while running, and while running with heavy packs, up and down the steep Wyoming ridges.

"We're here to replicate the environment of Afghanistan," said Ramsey, who brought his battalion to Wyoming from its home base at Fort Polk, La. "We don't get this kind of terrain at home."

Ramsey told me he had not read Ehrhart's paper before his battalion deployed to Wyoming for a month's training in early February. Polishing those skills was "intuitive," he said. But he said the paper now has been read across the battalion.

At a meeting with reporters this week, Army Secretary John McHugh was asked whether he was familiar with the Ehrhart report. McHugh said he was not, but after hearing a brief description, he said he would track down the paper and read it.

TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; banglist; bhodod; ehrhart; ehrhartreport; guns; oef; oefsurge
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To: Mr Rogers
I suspect the ranges also depend on what part of Afghanistan you are in, but 500+ meters is a LONNGGG way for an Afghan to try shooting."

Let me guess - you haven't fought at one of the firsbases in the high mountains of north eastern Afghanistan.

OUr troops have been forced to build tiny,open firebases in the fishbowl bottoms of valleys - surrounded by tree studded hills and mountains.

The Taliban have the advantage of shooting DOWN - which means the bullets WILL land on the firsbase.

I'll leave it there = but you might want to talk with a soldier who's been there. Nothing trumps boots on the ground knowledge.

61 posted on 04/03/2010 2:12:43 PM PDT by maine-iac7
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To: Thane_Banquo

M1 Garands with 30’06 black tips have that power. I’ve got one or two and I wouldn’t want to hit from one...

62 posted on 04/03/2010 2:14:02 PM PDT by Gaffer ("Profling: The only profile I need is a chalk outline around their dead ass!")
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To: oneolcop

“And there are still M-14’s in inventory in some obscure warehouse somewhere, I’m sure.”

Not many (Clinton destroyed or sold a bunch) and the supplies and spares are no longer in the system. Plus... the M110 looks like an M16. Make the user less of a target than an M14 does.

63 posted on 04/03/2010 2:15:40 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: mamelukesabre

Mass on target when it gets there....

64 posted on 04/03/2010 2:15:56 PM PDT by Gaffer ("Profling: The only profile I need is a chalk outline around their dead ass!")
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To: RedRover; jazusamo; Girlene; 4woodenboats; Grimmy; xzins; smoothsailing; lilycicero; bigheadfred; ..

(( ping ))

Some amazing information here.

65 posted on 04/03/2010 2:16:02 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: SandRat

(( ping ))

66 posted on 04/03/2010 2:16:24 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: James C. Bennett


67 posted on 04/03/2010 2:16:33 PM PDT by stylin19a (Never buy a putter until you first get a chance to throw it)
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“I have one and they are the same as the M-14 to the point that my M-1A came from Springfield with a military M-14 tear down manual.”

SA Inc’s quality is spotty.

68 posted on 04/03/2010 2:16:58 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: neverdem

Now this is the proper way to gripe...Continue Pvt. Jackson!

69 posted on 04/03/2010 2:17:49 PM PDT by stevie_d_64 (I'm jus sayin')
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To: mamelukesabre
They just need longer barreled m16s with scope. The 556 nato round is just fine. Little more accuracy, little more velocity...that’s all that’s needed.

The 62 grain 5.56 bullet has a muzzle energy of 1323 ft/lbs, but at 500 yards that has shrunk to 368.

The 147 grain 7.62 NATO starts out at 2582 at 500 yards still has 1071 ft/lbs at 500 yards.

We need to dispense with the "one size fits all" mentality (and also with the ridiculous rules of engagement). US troops should be trained to be proficient with both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

70 posted on 04/03/2010 2:18:18 PM PDT by PapaBear3625 (Public healthcare looks like it will work as well as public housing did.)
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To: bitterohiogunclinger

Actually, you could build a 40 for less than $6,000 with a little shopping. But you’re right, a 700 with a real good scope is about all you need.

71 posted on 04/03/2010 2:19:50 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: mamelukesabre

“I’ve been saying for years they need to ditch brass cases and upgrade to high strength aluminum alloy cases and then boost up chamber pressures.”

You really want to hit us reloaders where it hurts?

“Little more accuracy, little more velocity...that’s all that’s needed.”

Accuracy is fine. A heavier bullet is all that’s needed. Mk 262 Mod 1 has limited availability, but it’s very accurate to 600 yards. Chamber pressures already are above SAAMI maximums.

“BTW, 556 shoots further than 762. This article is not entirely honest.”

False, provided the “7.62” is 7.62x51 NATO.

72 posted on 04/03/2010 2:20:26 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: Favor Center
SA Inc’s quality is spotty.

It has served me well consistently.

I'm going to compare it to my latest yet to be tried acquisition, an APA-4 LR 308 tomorrow.

73 posted on 04/03/2010 2:22:50 PM PDT by EGPWS (Trust in God, question everyone else)
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To: Psalm 73

“I thought Springfield Armory still produced new M-14s for the DoD?”

No. The company going under the name “Springfield Armory” never manufactured M14s and has no relation whatsoever with the former government armory.

74 posted on 04/03/2010 2:24:09 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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“It has served me well consistently.”

The earlier M1As were far superior - fewer cast, foreign, parts.

75 posted on 04/03/2010 2:26:09 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: gunnut
I think the bigger issue are the rules of engagement that don’t allow artilery and air strikes to be called in.


And has resulted in a doubling of losses every month for the last year - double since the first year.

And yet the press is silent.

no air cover


76 posted on 04/03/2010 2:30:19 PM PDT by maine-iac7
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To: moovova
Didn’t Clinton destroy 100,000 M14s or some huge amount?

What Happened to the M14 rifle?

Records show that some 1,380,358 M14 rifles were made. The M16 was ordered as a replacement for the brand new M14 by direction of Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara starting in 1966. By 1970 the barley used weapon had been largely replaced in active duty. The National Guard discontinued using the weapon by 1980. No less than 479,367 M14 rifles were destroyed in 1993-94 and an unknown number were de-milled (cut with a blowtorch and welded shut) then transferred to JROTC units as drill weapons. Over 321,905 surplus arms were exported to foreign militaries under the Excess Defense Articles program and others.

That's an excerpt, but I don't know how true it is. I vaguely remember the ATF getting worried about it because a converter kit can make it full auto with little trouble, sales by the Department of Civilian Marksmanship were halted and that The Bent One ordered a bunch destroyed.

77 posted on 04/03/2010 2:30:24 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: neverdem

Live links per previous post

NO air cover - might hurt a civilian - EVEN thought there were none

in a fish bowl - no time/equipment to dig in

78 posted on 04/03/2010 2:30:27 PM PDT by maine-iac7
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To: maine-iac7

Thanks for the links.

79 posted on 04/03/2010 2:31:21 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: neverdem

I call BS.

The “problem” with a .223 is an ammunition problem. Expanding rounds > non-expanding rounds. The question that needs to be asked is, why aren’t we using the most effective ammunition?

Also at range, mortars always > rifles.

Another question to ask is, if resupply is not an issue why not equip with the heaviest, most accurate, most lethal round available? And it’s not a .223.

Seems like an article designed to build momentum to transition to the 6.8 SPC. Just my opinion.

80 posted on 04/03/2010 2:31:41 PM PDT by Sylvester McMonkey McBean
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