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Army Report: GIs Outgunned in Afghanistan
Politics Daily ^ | 04/2/10 | David Wood

Posted on 04/03/2010 1:03:04 PM PDT by neverdem

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To: Sylvester McMonkey McBean
Rounds considered humane for killing game are not humane for killing people, and rounds humane for killing people are not humane for killing game. How can both be true, given a single definition for humane?

If I remember correctly, military ball ammo is designed to wound, not to kill, with the thought that it takes more soldiers out of action to look after the wounded. Expanding and lead ammunition was banned because of the horrific wounds it inflicted - for those that lived.

151 posted on 04/03/2010 6:18:12 PM PDT by jim-x (You cannot protect people from themselves.)
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To: neverdem
John Browning solved this problem almost 100 years ago...


152 posted on 04/03/2010 6:21:52 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack

The trench sweeper. I have learned a lot on this thread.


153 posted on 04/03/2010 6:26:36 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: decimon
Unless they changed it, I’m pretty sure that all M-14s were select fire.

They could be. That's why the ATF got antsy about them. The Army liked the M1 Garand action, and they could simplify logistics when they eliminanated the BAR from the automatic riflemen, hence the M14 with the new NATO round.

I think that the armorer in many units removed that external selector switch. I did infantry advanced individual training in early 1970. IIRC, they gave us a few days of familiarization at the range with the M14, only semi. My first unit in Vietnam was a security platoon that still had them, without that external selector switch.

154 posted on 04/03/2010 6:30:06 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
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To: wally_bert
John Browning designed a number of incredible weapons...not the least of which was the BAR.

IMHO, it's the closest thing to the right medicine for the problem presented in this article. With a few modern upgrades, metallurgy and materials it could be even better.

155 posted on 04/03/2010 6:30:44 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgOs98e04rc


156 posted on 04/03/2010 6:38:34 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: smokingfrog

Very nice picture. What an incredible weapon, and does that soldier have a T patch? 36ths makes it even better!!

Our home boys!!


157 posted on 04/03/2010 7:02:25 PM PDT by davetex (All my weapons got melted by a meteor!! No Sh*t)
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To: Mr Rogers

>FWIW, I suspect the ranges also depend on what part of Afghanistan you are in, but 500+ meters is a LONNGGG way for an Afghan to try shooting.<

That’s a dumb thing to say, especially since you are “Retired military.”


158 posted on 04/03/2010 7:09:50 PM PDT by B4Ranch (Should people be questioning their government? Yes and "Where's the birth certificate?")
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To: Favor Center
The point is that a target load is NOT a combat load. All a target load has to do is punch through a piece of cheesecloth and heavy paper. And, that is at a known distance, with telltail flags to dope the wind. A 5.56 match round isn't close to a mankiller, or even very flat shooting, at those distances. All it has to be is consistant.

Back when, you would cook up a target load by gradually reducing the powder load, and bullet weights and tracking the group sizes until they started to grow, again.

Example: My father-in-law used to shoot NRA target .45s out in California. He used to collect all the LC match brass that the service shooters would leave behind. He cooked up a load that was 3.5 grains of Bullseye and (I think), a 230gr. semi-wadcutter. The load barely has enough steam to work the action on his 1911, and the case would frequently trickle off your gun hand and fall at your feet.

He had a stray dog come around his property, that was covered with mange and ticks, and he used his pistol, with his target loads, on the trusting dog at about 5 feet. The bullet bounced off the dog's skull, and he hit the dog twice more as it ran. (Imagine hitting a running dog with a hand gun, twice, at 25 yards. He was that good.) He was very shaken, that he had blundered so badly. The dog went under the farm truck and was cowering and whimpering when I went out there with a pump gun and ended it. Later I had to remind him that he was shooting one of his target loads.

159 posted on 04/03/2010 7:36:55 PM PDT by jonascord (We've got the Constitution to protect us. Why should we worry?)
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To: Favor Center
I had heard AP ammo was. Now I know that only PISTOL AP ammo is, and that .30-06 M2 is explicitly exempted.

I suppose it's because of the millions of rounds that the CMP gave away or sold after WW2.

160 posted on 04/03/2010 7:43:23 PM PDT by jonascord (We've got the Constitution to protect us. Why should we worry?)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Firearms
M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun
FN Browning M1899/M1900
Colt Model 1900
Colt Model 1902
Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammer (.38 ACP)
Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless (.32 ACP)
Colt Model 1905
Remington Model 8 (1906), a long recoil semi-automatic rifle
Colt Model 1908 Vest Pocket (.25 ACP)
Colt Model 1908 Pocket Hammerless (.380 ACP)
FN Model 1910
U.S. Model 1911 pistol
Colt Woodsman pistol
Winchester Model 1885 falling block single shot rifle
Winchester Model 1886 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1887 lever-action repeating shotgun
Winchester Model 1890 slide-action repeating rifle (.22)
Winchester Model 1892 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1895 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1897 pump-action repeating shotgun
Browning Auto-5 long recoil semi-automatic shotgun
U.S. Model 1917 water-cooled machine gun
Model 1919 air-cooled machine gun
Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of 1917
Browning M2 .50-caliber heavy machine gun of 1921
Remington Model 8 semi-auto rifle
Remington Model 24 semi-auto rifle (.22) Also produced by Browning Firearms (as the SA-22) and several others
The Browning Hi-Power, the last pistol that John Browning developed
The Browning Superposed over/under shotgun was designed by John Browning in 1922 and entered production in 1931


161 posted on 04/03/2010 7:49:15 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Joe 6-pack

Firearms
M1895 Colt-Browning machine gun
FN Browning M1899/M1900
Colt Model 1900
Colt Model 1902
Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammer (.38 ACP)
Colt Model 1903 Pocket Hammerless (.32 ACP)
Colt Model 1905
Remington Model 8 (1906), a long recoil semi-automatic rifle
Colt Model 1908 Vest Pocket (.25 ACP)
Colt Model 1908 Pocket Hammerless (.380 ACP)
FN Model 1910
U.S. Model 1911 pistol
Colt Woodsman pistol
Winchester Model 1885 falling block single shot rifle
Winchester Model 1886 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1887 lever-action repeating shotgun
Winchester Model 1890 slide-action repeating rifle (.22)
Winchester Model 1892 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1894 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1895 lever-action repeating rifle
Winchester Model 1897 pump-action repeating shotgun
Browning Auto-5 long recoil semi-automatic shotgun
U.S. Model 1917 water-cooled machine gun
Model 1919 air-cooled machine gun
Browning Automatic Rifle (BAR) of 1917
Browning M2 .50-caliber heavy machine gun of 1921
Remington Model 8 semi-auto rifle
Remington Model 24 semi-auto rifle (.22) Also produced by Browning Firearms (as the SA-22) and several others
The Browning Hi-Power, the last pistol that John Browning developed
The Browning Superposed over/under shotgun was designed by John Browning in 1922 and entered production in 1931


162 posted on 04/03/2010 7:49:15 PM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: neverdem

All of this is by design, This is a POLICE Action under the guise of the United nations, we are NOT SUPPOSED to win, we are there just for show. If it was really a war like WWII, that area would be called The Vast Sea of Glass.


163 posted on 04/03/2010 7:50:45 PM PDT by eyeamok
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To: parthian shot

I’ve noticed that on the War Porn ping to weaselzippers.


164 posted on 04/03/2010 8:04:10 PM PDT by mcshot (The nightmare is playing out. America is being conned by ignorance & fraud.)
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To: maine-iac7

May have already been answered, but what is up with this?

“Our troops have been forced to build tiny,open firebases in the fishbowl bottoms of valleys - surrounded by tree studded hills and mountains.”

Even I, a retired Naval Aviator, know better than to give the height advantage away!


165 posted on 04/03/2010 8:04:58 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Taxman
See the links at my post #78, for one example. There are many more -

also see my posts # 54 and 55.

Our troops have been under incredible disadvantages - CRIMINAL disadvantages - and it has multiplied under this regime. I do not know how obama dares show his face to our troops.

I notice in his fly by to Afghanistan this past week - his handlers evidently decided not to show the troops faces/reactions. They showed only one short video to my knowledge - and it was a tight camera shot, so close you could only see the face of one soldier in the background...who happened to be black, but decidedly no smile.

Quite a contrast from the times Bush visited the troops. The loved him as their CIC. They despise their present one. I believe one of the reasons he was - finally - willing to send more over there is because he wants as few of our loyal, oath takers in country.

WAtch for "Restrpo" - per post 54/55 - and Sebastian's book: "WAR"

166 posted on 04/03/2010 9:04:54 PM PDT by maine-iac7
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To: jonascord

A match load has to be supersonic at those distances. Our match loads tend to run “hot” compared to commercial 223. The mk 262 load developed for DMR use IS a match load using 77 grain Sierra Match Kings and is similar or exactly (service depending) what the service teams use across the course and is very “hot”. M118LR is a match load too. Both are used for “man killing”.

We certainly don’t load them down so far the weapon barely functions. Target pistol is NOT like target rifle. Yes, we have known distances. You will have the SAME problems with wind with the 762 NATO and the 556.


167 posted on 04/03/2010 9:05:40 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: davetex

I think it’s 4th Cav Regiment


168 posted on 04/03/2010 9:08:20 PM PDT by smokingfrog (Free Men will always be armed with the Truth.)
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To: Thane_Banquo

It has its uses, one of which is that it is very easy to train to proficiency/confidence. The M-14 is a much more powerful rifle, but it limits the amount of gear and ammunition the soldier can carry.

The original design for the M-16 was chambered in 7.62. Armalite still makes it, Bushmaster made it, LWRC and DPMS make them. Replacement cost pretty much eliminates the possibility of replacing the 5.56 rifles with 7.62 models. They played around with using the 6.8mm SPC cartridge, which is a short .270 that will function through lower receiver of the M-4 / M-16. But they wouldn’t make the switch, even though they only had to replace less than half of the rifle. I think cost was the factor. If they wouldn’t do that, they certainly won’t change the whole thing.

I also find the Major’s assessment of World War I equipment to be out of line. I had a 1917 Eddystone, the primary rifle used by the Doughboys. It was a great rifle, accurate and fun to shoot. It was also a five shot bolt action that loaded through stripper clips. It had a ladder sight and it weighed a ton. It was superior to the M-16 only in terms of bullet energy. It was larger and heavier. The ammunition weight reduced the number of rounds that could be carried. Recoil was significant. It didn’t bother me, but there are plenty of people who react poorly to recoil. It had to be taken off target to reload, a massive mistake in combat.

If he was referring to the infamous “walking fire” tactic with the Browning Automatic Rifle, he should go read the accounts of numerous soldiers who were ordered to fight that way, even after they demonstrated that they couldn’t hit anything using the method.


169 posted on 04/03/2010 9:31:14 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: Sylvester McMonkey McBean
. Expanding rounds > non-expanding rounds. The question that needs to be asked is, why aren’t we using the most effective ammunition?

First of all, while the 5.56 rounds, either the old 55gr or the new 62gr ones, don't expand, they do yaw when they hit flesh. That results in a nasty wound channel, and a large temporary cavity, which may crush or otherwise damage tissue. Second, exanding rounds are banned by treaty. Even the Soviets did not use them (but the 7.62x39 and 5.54x39 rounds they do use, also yaw in flesh).

170 posted on 04/03/2010 9:39:16 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Favor Center

Very accurate right out of the box. Rifle shoots much better than this particular rifleman.


171 posted on 04/03/2010 9:47:12 PM PDT by karnage (worn arguments and old attitudes)
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To: neverdem

Why don’t they just start issuing M-14s to those troops? Or at least that new Knight’s Armament 7.62x51 sniper rifle?


172 posted on 04/03/2010 9:49:19 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: Mr Rogers

I think the Hajjis are now mostly using the 5.45 AK-74s and the dragonov or SVD sniper rifles.


173 posted on 04/03/2010 9:50:58 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: GreyFriar
The only M-14s still in the Army inventory are probably those in museums and with units like the Old Guard which uses them for ceremonial purposes. Most of the M-14s were probably destroyed after they were fully replaced by the M-16.

Many M-14s were destroyed, but many are also in use by "designated marksmen" at the squad level. The Navy also has a bunch for shipboard use. (including as line throwers, but not just such "beneign" uses).

Some use the M-21, which is an upgraded M-14, semi-auto only

The Navy/Marines now have some Mark 11 Model 0 :

Meanwhile the Army has some M110 rifles:

The latter two are versions of the Knights Armament SR-25 in 7.62x51. Which in turn is derived from the Armalight AR-10, also in 7.62x51, which was basis for the AR-15/M-16 line.

174 posted on 04/03/2010 9:54:05 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: Thane_Banquo

the G-3 style rifles

The 308 hk-417

The Knights Armament rifle

and of course the M-14.

If they just let a contract for several thousand HK-417s or the M-14 then this is no longer a problem.

Of course, they could just ressurect the FN-FAL.


175 posted on 04/03/2010 9:54:05 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: Riodacat

they make them in vero beach florida.


176 posted on 04/03/2010 9:55:11 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: karnage

they could always adopt the barrett 6.8 rifle.


177 posted on 04/03/2010 9:56:13 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: B4Ranch

No, it isn’t.

See how easy a response is, if you make it without any facts or thought?


178 posted on 04/03/2010 9:59:01 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: karnage

The stock rifles usually need a bedding job, trigger work, and a heavy contour barrel to perform well. They require frequent rebedding work to keep them going, too. There are good reasons they are pretty much gone from competitive service rifle shooting.


179 posted on 04/03/2010 10:04:34 PM PDT by Favor Center (Targets Up! Hold hard and favor center!)
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To: 2111USMC

MN91/30s. Can reach out and touch someone. $4k = 1 gun or $4k =40 guns with ammo! Hmmm......

Yea, I’d ship one of mine to a soldier in Afganistan. That is, is I had one.


180 posted on 04/03/2010 10:27:23 PM PDT by morkfork (Candygram for Mongo)
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To: maine-iac7

bookmark to watch


181 posted on 04/03/2010 10:41:50 PM PDT by DocRock (All they that TAKE the sword shall perish with the sword. Matthew 26:52 Gun grabbers beware.)
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To: moovova
Carter ordered the M-14s destroyed.
182 posted on 04/03/2010 11:46:15 PM PDT by ASOC (In case of attack, tune to 640 kilocycles or 1240 kilocycles on your AM dial.)
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To: maine-iac7

BTTT - though McNasty is made up of traitors and
IMO are there to mislead through statements such as “the reporter proved the Pentagon was lying when it suggested there was a link between SoDam Rotting in hell and Al Qaida In Iraq” (like they could get 5 steps across the border w/o an invite), you reminded me that I hadn’t followed up for any updates. I wonder when they added that bit of fantasy, but am looking for clarification on exactly who screwed this pooch, and if/what charges were brought.


183 posted on 04/04/2010 12:25:18 AM PDT by 4woodenboats (Defend America peacefully, vigorously, and swiftly against all enemies before she becomes a memory)
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To: barb-tex
They did have machine guns, but you're not getting my point. The rifles they were equipped with were well suited to infantry maneouver. having machine guns as section support weapons makes sense, but having a whole squad or platoon with heavy weapons doesn't make a lot of sense.

Taking snipers from the battalion level and placing them at the platoon level IMO makes more sense (or including a few long guns with the platoon and having some soldiers proficient in their use, not true snipers, but marksmen, that makes the most sense)

184 posted on 04/04/2010 2:28:49 AM PDT by world weary
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To: neverdem

I see the misunderstanding now. The default for the M-14 was without the selector switch. We had M-14s in Basic, AIT, Vietnam and back at Fort Belvoir. Don’t think I ever saw a selector switch.

At Belvoir I spent time as acting company armorer. I didn’t know anything about being an armorer but I had enough time left so they made me armorer. Can’t remember having any selector switches.


185 posted on 04/04/2010 4:11:17 AM PDT by decimon
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To: mad_as_he$$

Wow!

(For a second there, I thought you were listing your own personal collection!)


186 posted on 04/04/2010 6:29:21 AM PDT by 2111USMC
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To: sig226
"I also find the Major’s assessment of World War I equipment to be out of line...If he was referring to the infamous “walking fire” tactic with the Browning Automatic Rifle, he should go read the accounts of numerous soldiers who were ordered to fight that way, even after they demonstrated that they couldn’t hit anything using the method."

I suspect he was talking about the "volley fire" tactic, for which the Springfield rifle had sights calibrated to out past 2,000 yards and which an entire squad, platoon or even company could mass their fire to suppress an area target. Obviously, the advantage of a BAR is that one automatic rifleman can drop almost as many .30-06 rounds against an area target as a couple of infantry squads with bolt action rifles. The BAR, with it's longer barrel would give the same round a higher velocity (and consequently a flatter trajectory) than one would get out of a Springfield or Garand. The "walking fire" technique was developed specifically for the trenches, where I suspect it would have been quite effective. Although employed at longer ranges in marches across "no man's land" where it failed miserably, that was not its original intent.

As I stated earlier, I think a modernized BAR or something along those lines would fit the bill. One of the limitations of the BAR was its 20 round mag. I suspect with modern metallurgy and springs, a 30 rounder could be made substantially smaller than it would have been in WWI or WWII. Modern powders would allow for either the same performance to be squeezed out of a 7.62 x 51 (as well as a shorter, lighter receiver), or the original specs could be maintained with a .30-06 round that is far more potent than even the WWII/Korea era performance. I would add a 3-round burst option in addition to semi & full, as well as some different optics packages. Certainly this is not to replace the individual rifleman's battle rifle, but to augment each squad with something that allows for suppressive fire against both point and area targets well beyond the range of the M249, without the weight of an M60 or M240.

187 posted on 04/04/2010 6:45:37 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Armedanddangerous

Can y’all send me one? ;)


188 posted on 04/04/2010 6:58:27 AM PDT by Riodacat (Never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity.)
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To: 2111USMC

;-)


189 posted on 04/04/2010 8:41:40 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: 2111USMC

;-)


190 posted on 04/04/2010 8:41:40 AM PDT by mad_as_he$$
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
I've got an SKS, which shoots the same 7.62X39 mm round as an AK, and as far as accuracy goes, it's good for about 100-150 yards. After that, the bullet loses energy fast and drops like a rock.

Let's not confuse accuracy with trajectory issues. I've shot SKS's at 400 yards with reasonable accuracy. But I could also go pick up the rounds where they hit and penetrated about 1/2" of clay. And AK's (mine)are generally pretty good at 300 yards. I don't know if the Afghans are using shot-out, poorly maintained weapons or not, but I'd imagine they are. But a dozen guys with those and the high ground would be a problem at 500 yards.

191 posted on 04/04/2010 10:17:33 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: jonascord
You know that's an AP round, and illegal, don't you?

Fully jacketed and 100% legal to the best of my knowledge. SS109, as well.

192 posted on 04/04/2010 10:24:26 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: gundog
Let's not confuse accuracy with trajectory issues.

I'm not. Not only does the typical 123 grain bullet lose energy fast, it's accuracy decreases dramatically after about a hundred yards.

At 100 yards (and using stabilizing sand bag rests), I can make a pretty decent group (about the size of a half-dollar), but at 200 yards (and compensating for the big drop), the bullets are usually all over the place on the target sheet.

Just my experience.

193 posted on 04/04/2010 10:29:21 AM PDT by Virginia Ridgerunner (Sarah Palin has crossed the Rubicon!)
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To: Lion Den Dan
...bullet length and velocity governs bullet stability...

That's what always struck me about the Geneva Conventions restrictions on ammo. Devised to hamper the most militant Empire of the day...Great Britain...by taking away their Dum Dum Arsenal ammo, the Conventions came about at a time when smokeless powders and spitzer bullets were pushing terminal performance past the magic 2400 fps mark that got jacketed bullets to start doing crazy things when they made contact.

194 posted on 04/04/2010 10:30:55 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: jim-x
Expanding and lead ammunition was banned because of the horrific wounds it inflicted - for those that lived.

There were also political reasons. For the most part it hampered Great Britain. Nobody made a fuss about Portugal's lead tipped ammo because Portugal didn't go around expanding an empire.

195 posted on 04/04/2010 10:34:22 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: Virginia Ridgerunner
Shooting in wind? A bullets path is set when it leaves the barrel. An AK should be "minute of jihadist" out to 400 yards. An SKS with a longer barrel and sight radius would give better results.
196 posted on 04/04/2010 10:40:07 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: Mr Rogers

I don’t know anything about this new M4 that the troops are carrying, but the M16 has no prob reaching out and tagging someone in a lethal manner at 500 yards/meters.

This is probably more a matter of training failure than weapon ability.


197 posted on 04/04/2010 11:08:54 AM PDT by Grimmy (equivocation is but the first step along the road to capitulation)
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To: lapsus calami
LOL - Great pic.
Let's hope the ATF doesn't deploy them though...


198 posted on 04/04/2010 11:55:17 AM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: gundog
I believed my Father-in-law, a Yellow Dog Democrat AND shooter. He is badly conflicted, and wrong about AP rounds. I should have known, given the Democrat part.

I was wrong. My bad.

199 posted on 04/04/2010 3:35:09 PM PDT by jonascord (We've got the Constitution to protect us. Why should we worry?)
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To: Riodacat

Gun Show man..Gun Show..


200 posted on 04/04/2010 7:13:36 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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