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EPA may try to use Clean Water Act to regulate carbon dioxide
McClatchy Newspapers ^ | April 4, 2010 | Les Blumenthal

Posted on 04/04/2010 4:17:50 AM PDT by Scanian

WASHINGTON — The Environmental Protection Agency is exploring whether to use the Clean Water Act to control greenhouse gas emissions, which are turning the oceans acidic at a rate that's alarmed some scientists.

With climate change legislation stalled in Congress, the Clean Water Act would serve as a second front, as the Obama administration has sought to use the Clean Air Act to rein in emissions of carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases administratively.

Since the dawn of the industrial age, acid levels in the oceans have increased 30 percent. Currently, the oceans are absorbing 22 million tons of carbon dioxide a day.

Among other things, scientists worry that the increase in acidity could interrupt the delicate marine food chain, which ranges from microscopic plankton to whales.

"There are all sorts of evils associated with this," said Robert Paine, an emeritus professor of biology at the University of Washington.

(Excerpt) Read more at mcclatchydc.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cleanairact; legislation; obamaadministration; wateracid

1 posted on 04/04/2010 4:17:50 AM PDT by Scanian
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To: Scanian

What, they’re going to try to regulate the evaporation rate of water now? Water vapor is the number one greenhouse gas, after all.


2 posted on 04/04/2010 4:22:26 AM PDT by cake_crumb (President Reagan on ObieCare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs&feature=player_embedded#)
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To: Scanian
I'd love to know...

A. How CO2 can be "absorbed" by water
B. How CO2 can be an acid

3 posted on 04/04/2010 4:25:07 AM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd = TRUE)
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To: Scanian; Amagi; Beowulf; Tunehead54; Clive; Fractal Trader; tubebender; marvlus; ...
 


Beam me to Planet Gore !

The Competitive Enterprise Institute will be bestowing the Julian Simon Award on Steve McIntyre and Ross McKitrick for their efforts in debunking Mann's hockey stick at CEI's 2010 Dinner, June 17 at Hyatt Regency Capitol Hill 400 New Jersey Ave. NW Washington, DC 20001.

4 posted on 04/04/2010 4:26:52 AM PDT by steelyourfaith (Warmists as "traffic light" apocalyptics: "Greens too yellow to admit they're really Reds."-Monckton)
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To: Scanian

Hands down the most arrogant, controlling, manipulative administration in the history of this country. It doesn’t matter what we’ve learned in our years in public schools, everything is wrong and global warming is real. Doesn’t anybody see that we should be breathing an atmosphere of 99.98% pure oxygen since CO2 is so evil. Next they’ll be going after Nitrogen which accounts for a large portion of our breathable air.

*cut to EPA offices*
“Sir, we’ve got a great idea!”
“What’s that, Jones?”
“Nitrogen, sir! There’s too much of it. It’s causing global cooling.”
“My Obama! Get AlGore and Bamster on the phone. We need to ban this stuff immediately before the polar ice caps freeze!”


5 posted on 04/04/2010 4:28:34 AM PDT by rarestia (It's time to water the Tree of Liberty.)
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To: 6SJ7

They would like to know too. This isnt about green energy, it’s about control.

Everything Obama has done is about control.


6 posted on 04/04/2010 4:29:27 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: 6SJ7
Do you really expect them to apply Science????

I would love to know how what we exhale can be a pollutant. Plants have to inhale it in order to exhale the oxygen that we need to live.

7 posted on 04/04/2010 4:32:52 AM PDT by mathluv ( Conservative first and foremost, republican second - GO SARAHCUDA!!!!)
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To: Scanian

Among other things, scientists worry that the increase in acidity could interrupt the delicate marine food chain, which ranges from microscopic plankton to whales.

Where is the proof of increased acidity, or for that matter proof that increased acidity is necessarily bad. No where to be found, but the sly reference to harm of the “delicate” (my foot) marine food chain, any proof of that declaration, NO. Oh, and the delicate marine food chain ranges from A to Z, and be sure we have plankton and whales in there for effect.

More of the same from so called scientists, more likely rabid anti human activity, animal loving activists on a mission from God, their God that is, unrelated to the God of the universe and Creator and protector of that same universe, and the real Scientist. Proof and facts, not to be found, but plenty to fan the flames of the fearful.

God’s creation MAN, is the root of all evil. /sarc


8 posted on 04/04/2010 4:35:45 AM PDT by wita
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To: 6SJ7
To 3 - Good questions.
Only wish we were at a 'town hall' with Obama and you had asked him. His response would be 'noteworthy'.
9 posted on 04/04/2010 4:37:14 AM PDT by jla (Obama & Co. vs. Jefferson & Madison - my money's on the latter)
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To: 6SJ7
CO2 + H2O => H2CO3

Carbon dioxide plus water produce carbonic acid. Let me buy you a soda and tell you about the dangers of carbonic acid...

10 posted on 04/04/2010 4:39:53 AM PDT by magslinger (Cry MALAISE! and let slip the dogs of incompetence.)
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To: 6SJ7
Surface wave action mixes air with the water.

Wikipedia can be your friend:

"When CO2 dissolves, it reacts with water to form a balance of ionic and non-ionic chemical species: dissolved free carbon dioxide (CO2(aq)), carbonic acid (H2CO3), bicarbonate (HCO−3) and carbonate (CO2−3). The ratio of these species depends on factors such as seawater temperature and alkalinity.

"Dissolving CO2 in seawater increases the hydrogen ion (H+) concentration in the ocean, and thus decreases ocean pH."

11 posted on 04/04/2010 4:40:45 AM PDT by Procyon (An well-armed society is a polite society.)
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To: 6SJ7
H2O+CO2-—>H2CO3

H2CO3 is acidic. (simplified reaction)

The problem comes when you stop at this point. Animal life in the ocean use this to make shells and coverings (clams, coral etc). This removes the H2CO3 and keeps the acid in balance. Like global warming, the computer models on CO2 in the ocean do not take the complex natural cycles in account. I think this is on purpose.

12 posted on 04/04/2010 4:41:16 AM PDT by Kent1957
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To: Scanian

I hope the first act of a President Palin is to ELIMINATE the EPA.

Time to visit the dustbin of history...


13 posted on 04/04/2010 4:45:31 AM PDT by Daisyjane69 (Michael Reagan: "Welcome back, Dad, even if you're wearing a dress and bearing children this time)
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To: Scanian

“Currently, the oceans are absorbing 22 million tons of carbon dioxide a day.”

Inquiring minds want to know...how many tons of CO2 were being absorbed by the oceans before the industrial revolution?

Suspect pseudo-science at it’s finest; all in the pursuit of the leftists’ agenda of control and subjugation of the American people in the mad march to marxism.

Forget the fact that these gasbags are seeking to dump what would be a global problem (if it’s really a problem) onto the backs of the already overburdened American taxpayers, while the rest of the world cavorts merrily on its way.

It’s time to take back the country. Quashing the tree huggers would be a good start.


14 posted on 04/04/2010 4:45:56 AM PDT by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion. 01-20-2013: Change we can look forward to.)
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To: 6SJ7
CO2+H2O = H2CO3.

Carbon dioxide plus water yields carbonic acid.

15 posted on 04/04/2010 4:46:39 AM PDT by Jim Noble (Let tyrants shake their iron rod, and slavery clank her galling chains)
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To: Scanian

Science and scientists are becoming a bigger joke than Obama.


16 posted on 04/04/2010 4:48:42 AM PDT by caver (Obama: Home of the Whopper)
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To: caver

A bigger joke is the McClatchy newspaper chain which produced this screed; it should be read only with a “jaundiced eye,” if at all.


17 posted on 04/04/2010 5:00:13 AM PDT by Melchior
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To: 6SJ7

CO2 is an acid anhyride and readily binds with water to form carbonic acid which is also very weak bordering on a pH of neutral.


18 posted on 04/04/2010 5:04:59 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come. Judgment Day: Nov 2, 2010)
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To: PubliusMM
Inquiring minds want to know...how many tons of CO2 were being absorbed by the oceans before the industrial revolution?

Co2 produced by whale = good co2. Co2 produced by man or his slave cows = bad co2. Understand?

19 posted on 04/04/2010 5:05:07 AM PDT by LRS (Just contracts; just laws; just a constitution...)
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To: 6SJ7
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A. How CO2 can be “absorbed” by water
B. How CO2 can be an acid
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is called mass transfer whereby a gas dissolves in a liquid (example water). Concentration differences drive the rate of the mass transfer.

CO2 in water is in equilibrium with carbonic acid, a weak acid. CO2 has long been used to adjust pH in certain water treatment applications with low buffering.

It takes a whopping large concentration of gas phase CO2 in water to first drive the CO2 into solution before the equilibrium with carbonic acid can even come into play. This is confounded by carbonate and bicarbonate that are intermediate between CO2 and carbonic acid. Sea water is buffered pretty good to counter the impact of this weak acid on reducing pH.

Now that I think of on this some more, I think it is more likely that this is a “Chicken Little” approach to hammering on global warming crap from another direction.

20 posted on 04/04/2010 5:06:03 AM PDT by Hootowl99
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To: 6SJ7

Take a course in geology. There is a chemistry which produced the “limestone” that we use today for the basis of cement in construction. And what we use happened millions upon millions of years ago. Its a long slo process which has been going on as a part of a healthy earth.

Now with the heightened human activities, there is severe co2 loading going on , acidifying the oceans. It is a very real problem and needs to be dealt with. The sooner the world is off of oil, the better....in many ways. It would certainly shut those mid east yaps and return them to the stone age!

As a comparison, we could load you up with toxins, (heck! use alcohol!) impair your liver or kidneys and see how long you function. Small amounts you can deal with , with time.


21 posted on 04/04/2010 5:07:24 AM PDT by himno hero
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To: himno hero

There’s no more proof of elevated acid levels being caused by man than there is of anthropogenic global warming.


22 posted on 04/04/2010 5:11:56 AM PDT by cake_crumb (President Reagan on ObieCare: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs&feature=player_embedded#)
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To: caver

Liberal scientists are a joke. Conservatives are making the breakthroughs that matter.


23 posted on 04/04/2010 5:12:57 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come. Judgment Day: Nov 2, 2010)
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To: Procyon

CO2 in water is actually a weak ionic species because the bond with water is more covalent (electrons being shared to satisfy the “octet rule”). In large quantities of water carbonic acid is more than likely to remain in equilibrium with its surroundings greatly nullifying any potentially adverse effect in pH. These are proven scientific facts which the EPA is going to have to deal with and will get shot down.


24 posted on 04/04/2010 5:23:14 AM PDT by DarthVader (Liberalism is the politics of EVIL whose time of judgment has come. Judgment Day: Nov 2, 2010)
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To: cake_crumb

I believe you are mis informed or ill informed on this matter. IT is real and quantifiable.


25 posted on 04/04/2010 5:29:10 AM PDT by himno hero
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To: himno hero

“...with the heightened human activities, there is severe co2 loading going on,
acidifying the oceans. It is a very real problem...”
-
Let’s see the numbers.


26 posted on 04/04/2010 5:30:32 AM PDT by Repeal The 17th (Greetings, and how are you today, comrade?)
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To: DarthVader

“Liberal scientists are a joke. Conservatives are making the breakthroughs that matter.”

All I ever hear about are the liberal ones.


27 posted on 04/04/2010 5:41:29 AM PDT by caver (Obama: Home of the Whopper)
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To: Scanian

While defunding the deathcare bill after 2010 defund the EPA


28 posted on 04/04/2010 5:42:28 AM PDT by ronnie raygun (Cool heads prevail)
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To: himno hero
I believe you are mis informed or ill informed on this matter. IT is real and quantifiable.

Got link?

29 posted on 04/04/2010 6:11:56 AM PDT by magslinger (Cry MALAISE! and let slip the dogs of incompetence.)
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To: tatown

Bookmark


30 posted on 04/04/2010 6:16:02 AM PDT by tatown (Obama is Kenyan for "turd")
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To: Scanian

A stern shot across the EPA’s bow should be fired by prominent conservatives with a voice. YOU in the EPA play around skirting the Constitution, the EPA will be de-funded in 2011.


31 posted on 04/04/2010 6:22:01 AM PDT by Michael Barnes (Call me when the bullets start flying.)
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To: Michael Barnes
A stern shot across the EPA’s bow...

Make up your mind, stern or bow. Or are you advocating splitting the difference? I could get behind that. :)

32 posted on 04/04/2010 6:28:47 AM PDT by magslinger (Cry MALAISE! and let slip the dogs of incompetence.)
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To: 6SJ7
I'd love to know...

A. How CO2 can be "absorbed" by water B. How CO2 can be an acid

Water can absorb CO2.That's exactly what happens when they make carbonated beverages. The bubbles that come from the drink and bubbles of CO2 being released.

While the CO2 is dissolved in the water it becomes a weak carbonic acid solution.

But none of this is happening to the degree they claim it is and the and while in the ocean, the CO2 becomes part of carbonates (seashells, etc.) and makes life possible for seaweed and phytoplankton, both of which would cease to exist without the CO2.

33 posted on 04/04/2010 6:29:20 AM PDT by capt. norm (Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.)
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To: magslinger
I could get behind that.=I could support that.

Sorry.

34 posted on 04/04/2010 6:30:25 AM PDT by magslinger (Cry MALAISE! and let slip the dogs of incompetence.)
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To: Scanian

Lies, lies, and more lies.


35 posted on 04/04/2010 6:33:16 AM PDT by abclily
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To: capt. norm

Thank you, Capt.
Glad to see someone around here has taken organic chemistry...


36 posted on 04/04/2010 7:12:34 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Impeachment !)
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To: magslinger

I saw a presentation on TV a couple of weeks ago where they made quantitative comparisons over an area they had been monitoring for 10 years and couldnt readily find anything on the net. The program also had Dr David Suzuki as a co narrator, so I searched on the Dr. (and carbonic acid) and found only references again. The closest I could come up with is

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

which offers some comparisons....


37 posted on 04/04/2010 7:30:21 AM PDT by himno hero
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To: Venturer
Everything Obama has done is about control.

The definition of tyranny.

38 posted on 04/04/2010 7:33:35 AM PDT by sionnsar (IranAzadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5:SONY|Remember Neda Agha-Soltan|TV--it's NOT news you can trust)
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To: himno hero

“The program also had Dr David Suzuki.”

Get lost troll.


39 posted on 04/04/2010 7:47:48 AM PDT by BenKenobi ("we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be")
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To: 6SJ7

The reaction is:
CO2 (carbon dioxide) + H2O (water) = H2CO3 (carbonic acid)

This is one of the more common chemical reactions in nature. It is needed for life itself.
As soon as H2CO3 is available, plants and algae convert it to O2, sugars and other needed biological organic compounds (amino acids, proteins, etc.)


40 posted on 04/04/2010 8:01:52 AM PDT by BuffaloJack ("When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty." - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: BenKenobi

Thats very tangential and myopic.


41 posted on 04/04/2010 8:16:50 AM PDT by himno hero
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To: Scanian; Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ..

The list, ping


42 posted on 04/04/2010 9:51:19 AM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: himno hero
As far as I can tell on reading the article is that they are basing the acidification of the ocean on one data point, one guesstimate and models projecting points into the future based on those two points. Pretty thin stuff to base programs that will cost us $billions and set our economy back to about that of a third world nation.

And that is without going into Wikipedia not being the most reliable of sources.

43 posted on 04/04/2010 10:52:29 AM PDT by magslinger (Cry MALAISE! and let slip the dogs of incompetence.)
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To: himno hero

“...I saw a presentation on TV a couple of weeks ago...”
-
Are you for real?
Surely (and stop calling me Shirley),
you do you base your core beliefs on what you see on a TV show.
wiki says:
“...In recent years, Suzuki has been a forceful spokesperson on global climate change, not always without controversy. In February 2008, he urged McGill University students to speak out against politicians who fail to act on climate change, stating “What I would challenge you to do is to put a lot of effort into trying to see whether there’s a legal way of throwing our so-called leaders into jail because what they’re doing is a criminal act.”...”


44 posted on 04/05/2010 4:13:43 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th (Greetings, and how are you today, comrade?)
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To: himno hero

“...That’s very tangential...”
-
Tan genitals...isn’t that what you see at a nudist colony?


45 posted on 04/05/2010 4:16:02 PM PDT by Repeal The 17th (Greetings, and how are you today, comrade?)
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