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What About Abortion in Cases of Rape and Incest? Women and Sexual Assault
Life News ^ | 4/5/10 | Amy Sobie

Posted on 04/05/2010 3:13:26 PM PDT by wagglebee

LifeNews.com Note: Amy Sobie is the editor of The Post-Abortion Review, a quarterly publication of the Elliot Institute. The organization is a widely respected leader in research and analysis of medical, mental health and other complications resulting from abortions.

April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month. Many people, including those whose mission is to help women and girls who are victims of sexual assault and abuse, believe abortion is the best solution if a pregnancy occurs.

Yet our research shows that most women who become pregnant through sexual assault don't want abortion, and say abortion only compounds their trauma.

“How can you deny an abortion to a twelve-year-old girl who is the victim of incest?”

Typically, people on both sides of the abortion debate accept the premise that most women who become pregnant through sexual assault want abortions. From this “fact,” it naturally follows that the reason women want abortions in these cases is because it will help them to put the assault behind them, recover more quickly, and avoid the additional trauma of giving birth to a “rapist’s child.”

But in fact, the welfare of a mother and her child are never at odds, even in sexual assault cases. As the stories of many women confirm, both the mother and the child are helped by preserving life, not by perpetuating violence.

Sadly, however, the testimonies of women who have actually been pregnant through sexual assault are routinely left out of this public debate. Many people, including sexual assault victims who have never been pregnant, may be forming opinions based on their own prejudices and fears rather than the real life experiences of those people who have been in this difficult situation and reality.

For example, it is commonly assumed that rape victims who become pregnant would naturally want abortions. But in the only major study of pregnant rape victims ever done prior to this book, Dr. Sandra Mahkorn found that 75 to 85 percent did not have abortions. This figure is remarkably similar to the 73 percent birth rate found in our sample of 164 pregnant rape victims. This one finding alone should cause people to pause and reflect on the presumption that abortion is wanted or even best for sexual assault victims.1

Several reasons were given for not aborting. Many women who become pregnant through sexual assault do not believe in abortion, believing it would be a further act of violence perpetrated against their bodies and their children. Further, many believe that their children’s lives may have some intrinsic meaning or purpose which they do not yet understand. This child was brought into their lives by a horrible, repulsive act. But perhaps God, or fate, will use the child for some greater purpose. Good can come from evil.

The woman may also sense, at least at a subconscious level, that if she can get through the pregnancy she will have conquered the rape. By giving birth, she can reclaim some of her lost self-esteem. Giving birth, especially when conception was not desired, is a totally selfless act, a generous act, a display of courage, strength, and honor. It is proof that she is better than the rapist. While he was selfish, she can be generous. While he destroyed, she can nurture.

Adding to the Trauma

Many people assume that abortion will at least help a rape victim put the assault behind her and get on with her life. But evidence shows that abortion is not some magical surgery which turns back the clock to make a woman “un-pregnant.”

Instead, it is a real life event which is always very stressful and often traumatic. Once we accept that abortion is itself an event with deep ramifications for a woman’s life, then we must look carefully at the special circumstances of the pregnant sexual assault victim. Evidence indicates that abortion doesn't help and only causes further injury to an already bruised psyche?

But before we even get to this issue, we must ask: do most women who become pregnant as a result of sexual assault want to abort?

In our survey of women who became pregnant as a result of rape or incest, many women who underwent abortions indicated that they felt pressured or were strongly directed by family members or health care workers to have abortions. The abortion came about not because of the woman's desire to abort but as a response to the suggestions or demands of others. In many cases, resources such as health workers, counselors and others who are normally there to help women after sexual assault pushed for abortion.

Family pressure, withholding of support and resources that the woman needed to continue the pregnancy, manipulative an inadequate counseling and other problems all played a role into pushing women into abortions, even though abortion was often not what the woman really wanted.

Further, in almost every case involving incest, it was the girl's parents or the perpetrator who made the decision and arrangements for the abortion, not the girl herself. None of these women reported having any input into the decision. Each was simply expected to comply with the choice of others. In several cases, the abortion was carried out over the objections of the girl, who clearly told others that wanted to continue the pregnancy. In a few cases, victim was not even clearly aware that she was pregnant or that the abortion was being carried out.

"Medical Rape"

Second, although many people believe that abortion will help a woman resolve the trauma of rape more quickly, or at least keep her from being reminded of the rape throughout her pregnancy, many of the women in our survey who had abortions reported that abortion only added to and accentuated the traumatic feelings associated with sexual assault.

This is easy to understand when one considers that many women have described their abortions as being similar to a rape (and even used the term "medical rape), it is easy to see that abortion is likely to add a second trauma to the earlier trauma of sexual assault. Abortion involves an often painful intrusion into a woman’s sexual organs by a masked stranger who is invading her body. Once she is on the operating table, she loses control over her body. Even if she protests and asks the abortionist to stop, chances are she will be either ignored or told that it's too late to stop the abortion.

For many women this experiential association between abortion and sexual assault is very strong. It is especially strong for women who have a prior history of sexual assault, whether or not the aborted child was conceived during an act of assault. This is just one reason why women with a history of sexual assault are likely to experience greater distress during and after an abortion than are other women.

Research also shows that women who abort and women who are raped often describe similar feelings of depression, guilt, lowered self-esteem, violation and resentment of men. Rather than easing the psychological burdens experienced by those who have been raped, abortion added to them. Jackie wrote:

I soon discovered that the aftermath of my abortion continued a long time after the memory of my rape had faded. I felt empty and horrible. Nobody told me about the pain I would feel deep within causing nightmares and deep depressions. They had all told me that after the abortion I could continue my life as if nothing had happened.2

Those encouraging, pushing or insisting on abortion often do so because they are uncomfortable dealing with sexual assault victims, or perhaps because they harbor some prejudice against victims whom they feel “let it happen.” Wiping out the pregnancy is a way of hiding the problem. It is a “quick and easy” way to avoid dealing with the woman’s true emotional, social and financial needs. As Kathleen wrote:

I, having lived through rape, and also having raised a child “conceived in rape,” feel personally assaulted and insulted every time I hear that abortion should be legal because of rape and incest. I feel that we're being used by pro-abortionists to further the abortion issue, even though we've not been asked to tell our side of the story.

Trapping the Incest Victim

The case against abortion for incest pregnancies is even stronger. Studies show that incest victims rarely ever voluntarily agree to abortion. Instead of viewing the pregnancy as unwanted, the incest victim is more likely to see the pregnancy as a way out of the incestuous relationship because the birth of her child will expose the sexual activity. She is also likely to see in her pregnancy the hope of bearing a child with whom she can establish a truly loving relationship, one far different than the exploitive relationship in which she has been trapped.

But while the girl may see her pregnancy as a possible way of release from her situation, it poses a threat to her abuser. It is also poses a threat to the pathological secrecy which may envelop other members of the family who are afraid to acknowledge the abuse. Because of this dual threat, the victim may be coerced or forced into an unwanted abortion by both the abuser and other family members.

For example, Edith, a 12-year-old victim of incest impregnated by her stepfather, writes twenty-five years after the abortion of her child:

Throughout the years I have been depressed, suicidal, furious, outraged, lonely, and have felt a sense of loss . . . The abortion which was to “be in my best interest” just has not been. As far as I can tell, it only ‘saved their reputations,’ ‘solved their problems,’ and ‘allowed their lives to go merrily on.’ . . . My daughter, how I miss her so. I miss her regardless of the reason for her conception."

Abortion businesses who routinely ignore this evidence and neglect to interview minors presented for abortion for signs of coercion or incest are actually contributing to the victimization of young girls. Not only are they robbing the victim of her child, they are concealing a crime, abetting a perpetrator, and handing the victim back to her abuser so that the exploitation can continue.

For example, the parents of three teenaged Baltimore girls pleaded guilty to three counts of first-degree rape and child sexual abuse. The father had repeatedly raped the three girls over a period of at least nine years, and the rapes were covered up by at least ten abortions. At least five of the abortions were performed by the same abortionist at the same clinic.3

Sadly, there is strong evidence that failing to ask questions about the pregnancy and to report cases of sexual abuse are widespread at abortion clinics. Undercover investigations by pro-life groups have found numerous cases in which clinics agreed to cover up cases of statutory rape or ongoing abuse of minor girls by older men and simply perform an abortion instead.

In 2002 a judge found a Planned Parenthood affiliate in Arizona negligent for failing to report a case in which a 13-year-old girl was impregnated and taken for an abortion by her 23-year-old foster brother. The abortion business did not notify authorities until the girl returned six months later for a second abortion. A lawsuit alleged that the girl was subjected to repeated abuse and a second abortion because Planned Parenthood failed to notify authorities when she had her first abortion. The girl's foster brother was later imprisoned for abusing her.4

Finally, we must recognize that children conceived through sexual assault also deserve to have their voices heard. Rebecca Wasser-Kiessling, who was conceived in a rape, is rightfully proud of her mother’s courage and generosity and wisely reminds us of a fundamental truth that transcends biological paternity: “I believe that God rewarded my birth mother for the suffering she endured, and that I am a gift to her. The serial rapist is not my creator; God is.”

Similarly, Julie Makimaa, who works diligently against the perception that abortion is acceptable or even necessary in cases of sexual assault, proclaims, “It doesn't matter how I began. What matters is who I will become.”

That’s a slogan we can all live with.


Citations

1. Mahkorn, "Pregnancy and Sexual Assault," The Psychological Aspects of Abortion, eds. Mall & Watts, (Washington, D.C., University Publications of America, 1979) 55-69.

2. David C. Reardon, Aborted Women, Silent No More (Chicago, IL: Loyola University Press, 1987), 206.

3. Jean Marbella, "Satisfactory explanations of sex crime proved elusive," Baltimore Sun, Oct. 31, 1990; M. Dion Thompson, "GBMC, doctor suspected nothing amiss," Baltimore Sun, Oct. 31. 1990; "Family Horror Comes to Light in Story of Girls Raped by Father," Baltimore Sun, November 4, 1990; Raymond L. Sanchez, "Mother Sentenced in Rape Case," Baltimore Sun, Dec. 6, 1990.

4. "Planned Parenthood Found Negligent in Reporting Molested Teen's Abortion," Pro-Life Infonet, attributed to Associated Press; Dec. 26, 2002.



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; moralabsolutes; prolife; rape
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Similarly, Julie Makimaa, who works diligently against the perception that abortion is acceptable or even necessary in cases of sexual assault, proclaims, “It doesn't matter how I began. What matters is who I will become.”

Amen!

1 posted on 04/05/2010 3:13:26 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: cgk; Coleus; cpforlife.org; narses; Salvation; 8mmMauser

Pro-Life Ping


2 posted on 04/05/2010 3:13:52 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: 185JHP; 230FMJ; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; An American In Dairyland; Antoninus; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
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3 posted on 04/05/2010 3:14:24 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Amen!

You bet! How can infanticide ever be an acceptable answer to our own failings?

4 posted on 04/05/2010 3:15:58 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama: Hokus Pokus POTUS)
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To: wagglebee

Capital punishment for the rapist, not the baby. Adoption is always an option if the mother doesn’t want the baby.


5 posted on 04/05/2010 3:16:09 PM PDT by Domandred (Fdisk, format, and reinstall the entire .gov system.)
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To: wagglebee

April is Sexual Assault Awareness Month?

Seems like we should be aware of it every month. Geez.


6 posted on 04/05/2010 3:21:05 PM PDT by Retired Greyhound
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To: wagglebee

Sadly, the moral question is a mute one, since at this time, our tax dollars can and will be used to fund aborting 3rd trimester babies for the purpose of birth control.


7 posted on 04/05/2010 3:21:42 PM PDT by MNDude (The Republican Congress Economy--1995-2007)
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To: All

If that ever happened to me, I could not kill the baby, but neither could I keep it.
I do believe abortion is murder, but I just could not raise that baby.


8 posted on 04/05/2010 3:22:29 PM PDT by patriot08 (TEXAS GAL- born and bred and proud of it!)
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To: wagglebee

Sorry, but you will encourage sexual assault without a rape exception... encourage people to choose life, but don’t dare make it the law to carry a rapists child...


9 posted on 04/05/2010 3:24:10 PM PDT by bahblahbah
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To: Retired Greyhound

Not only we should we aware of it, we should be armed against it! If you’re able to kill the sob, you’ll probably be saving more women, too.


10 posted on 04/05/2010 3:26:33 PM PDT by basil (It's time to rid the country of "Gun Free Zones" aka "Killing Fields")
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To: wagglebee

A big reason not to vote dor RINO Romney the abortion pusher...

His religion allows for abortion when its rape of incest...


11 posted on 04/05/2010 3:26:54 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: bcsco

“You bet! How can infanticide ever be an acceptable answer to our own failings?”

If something is right, it is right. It is not necessary to tell lies if you are defending the truth. Apparently you do not believe what you defend is the truth, else you would not tell the lie that a fetus is and infant.

I despise abortion, but I despise liars more, because they harm every true purpose.

Hank


12 posted on 04/05/2010 3:29:04 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: bahblahbah; wagglebee
Sorry, but you will encourage sexual assault without a rape exception...

How?

There is such a mind boggling huge disconnect there that I can't for the life of me see how not allowing abortion even for rape VICTIMS, could have any influence on the RAPIST.

Not allowing abortion for rape victims is going to make rape more likely to happen? Or is going to encourage more men to rape women?

Please explain what passes for reasoning in your brain.

13 posted on 04/05/2010 3:42:03 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: wagglebee
“Sadly, however, the testimonies of women who have actually been pregnant through sexual assault are routinely left out of this public debate.”

This is the main problem I have with the pro abortion folks. They lie, distort and leave out vital information. If they are so confident that women want their deadly service then give all the facts, good or bad.

Don't they know that this is such a life altering decision that will forever be with these women the rest of their lives? The cold reality of the truth is the very least that they deserve. These women are treated like pawns instead of intelligent women who are under a great deal of stress. They are used and their emotional state is taken advantage of.

14 posted on 04/05/2010 3:43:22 PM PDT by c21sac ( Aspire to Inspire before you Expire)
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To: Hank Kerchief
If something is right, it is right. It is not necessary to tell lies if you are defending the truth. Apparently you do not believe what you defend is the truth, else you would not tell the lie that a fetus is and infant.

I despise abortion, but I despise liars more, because they harm every true purpose.

Hank

What the hell are you talking about?

15 posted on 04/05/2010 3:44:23 PM PDT by bcsco (Obama: Hokus Pokus POTUS)
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To: wagglebee

Reagan’s position was to allow women who did not enter into the act of sex willingly to be allowed to terminate any pregnancy that resulted.

It still kills a life.

But I’d accept that, if it prevented the other 98 or 99% of the abortions.


16 posted on 04/05/2010 3:52:33 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: aMorePerfectUnion

I agree, it’s not optimal, but it would save millions of lives.


17 posted on 04/05/2010 3:54:05 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

It embarasses me to admit this, but I am one Catholic who would be willing to stipulate for “choice” in cases of rape and incest, if that meant we could save the other millions that were “inconvenient.” I expect that this will be what happens in a lot of states when the issue eventually goes back to them.

The not-so-unforseen consequence of this, of course, will be a rise in false accusations of rape.

If my own daughter was raped, I would hope that I had taught her well enough to make the correct the decision, I would do what I could to support her. Having known a few rape victims in my life, I can say for sure that there are more than a few women who would take their own (and their child’s) lives rather than give birth to their attacker’s baby.


18 posted on 04/05/2010 3:54:23 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: bahblahbah

Why should the child die for the sins of it’s father? The baby is also an innocent victim of the rape. If you can not raise the child, give it up for adoption so that it can be a blessing for a childless couple.


19 posted on 04/05/2010 3:59:54 PM PDT by Do the math (Doug)
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To: Tennessee Nana

Isn’t there a difference between pushing something and allowing it?

God allows a lot of things that He certainly doesn’t encourage.

But since God doesn’t prevent abortions does that make him pro abortion, too? Hey, he allows them to happen so why not?


20 posted on 04/05/2010 4:01:49 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Eagle Eye; Tennessee Nana
But since God doesn’t prevent abortions does that make him pro abortion, too? Hey, he allows them to happen so why not?

I always find it interesting when people find a way to compare God or His Son to certain mormons in defense of mormon doctrines and practices, but this one pretty much takes the cake on the "man can become god" blasphemy.

21 posted on 04/05/2010 4:07:21 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (ObamaLand: Ignore the inner-city minority gangs, send the FBI after white Christian militia.)
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To: presidio9

Not only that, but forcing someone by law to bear the result of an injustice doesn’t ring well with me in a free country. If the girl in that situation had an illegal abortion of a rape/incest baby, what would we do, throw her in jail?

I haven’t even speculated the unintended consequences of liberals twisting such a law to their ends.

I hope she’d keep the baby, encourage her to do so, and provide her adoption options, but I wouldn’t make a law mandating her to do so.


22 posted on 04/05/2010 4:09:11 PM PDT by Free Vulcan (No prisoners, no mercy. 2010 is here...)
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To: bahblahbah
....but don’t dare make it the law to carry a rapists child...

How does one distinguish between a real rape and a "oops, I got pregnant the guy raped me" defense?

Even thought it would be very difficult to carry a child produced from a rape, you should always side on the side of life.

Also I might add the actual statistics on women getting pregnant from a rape is almost non-existent. I said almost, not never, but under 1% of rapes result in a pregnancy

23 posted on 04/05/2010 4:11:03 PM PDT by Popman (Balsa wood: Obama Presidential timber)
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To: Hank Kerchief; bcsco; metmom; presidio9; Coleus; narses; BykrBayb; floriduh voter; Lesforlife; ...
I despise abortion, but I despise liars more, because they harm every true purpose.

Many of us are well aware that you claim to despise abortion, but oppose any laws to end the American Holocaust.

What is it that you and others like you say? Oh yeah, you want abortion to be "safe and legal and rare."

24 posted on 04/05/2010 4:11:08 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: presidio9

Hope you have your flame retardant undies on.

Some will call you pro abortion and a baby killer even though you could be 100% against abortion but because you fail to effectively impose your will on others then you will be a baby killer and pro abortion.


25 posted on 04/05/2010 4:11:10 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Hank Kerchief; wagglebee
I despise abortion, but I despise liars more, because they harm every true purpose.

*every true purpose*?

Just what is that gobblity gook supposed to mean?

What exactly is *every true purpose*?

26 posted on 04/05/2010 4:14:36 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: greyfoxx39

I find it interesting when someone types gibberish to me and expects me to decipher.

It sounds to me like you have a problem with Mormons.

Is that the case you Mormon hater?

If you aren’t 100% pro Mormon then you are simply anti Mormon, right?


27 posted on 04/05/2010 4:14:56 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: Free Vulcan
I haven’t even speculated the unintended consequences of liberals twisting such a law to their ends.

Actually, they've been doing just that for over thirty years now. Rape and incest has been pretty much their only justification in the abortion debate for decades. They conveniently for get to add that rape and incest make up less than two percent of all abortions. Obviously the majority of rapes do not result in pregnancy, and many victims choose to carry the baby to term. I suspect, but don't know, that a few years later 100% of them report that the baby (not the rape of course) was the best thing that ever happened to them.

NARL and others used to wave wire hangers, scream about the all the teenagers who died in botched abortions (never significant figures in the abortion dabate). Now, they've so completely won that argument that (if you live in some states) your 13 year-old can walk in a clinic and get a free abortion and the people involved risk going to jail if they do the right thing and let you know.

28 posted on 04/05/2010 4:15:29 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
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To: wagglebee

I am really struggling with something about abortion...

I think abortion is wrong. Rape, incest... it is wrong to kill an innocent baby.

But what about the cases of horrifically damaged fetuses? I don’t mean like Trig Palin, I mean fetuses that have no brain or no spine or a rare disease something horrific like that which would mean a painful life and early death. If medical science can show these things... well, I am really caught there. That would mean a woman carrying and delivering a baby to term just to suffer and/or die? How do we deal with that?

It is just something that I struggle with and would appreciate opinions on.


29 posted on 04/05/2010 4:22:53 PM PDT by KarenMarie (NEVER believe anything coming out of DC until it's been denied.)
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To: bcsco
What the hell are you talking about?

I was wondering the same thing.

30 posted on 04/05/2010 4:24:22 PM PDT by houeto (Get drinking water from your ditch - http://www.junglebucket.com/Jungle-Bucket-1.htm)
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To: KarenMarie
I mean fetuses that have no brain or no spine or a rare disease something horrific like that which would mean a painful life and early death

At what point would you euthanize your child?

31 posted on 04/05/2010 4:27:20 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: KarenMarie

Children are created by God and EACH ONE is created the way they are for a reason. He knows what He is doing and there is a purpose for all of His creation.

I had a cousin born with severe birth defects 27 years ago. He survived less than four days and his mother held him in her arms as he died. My aunt and uncle have said that they wouldn’t trade those few hours for anything in the world.


32 posted on 04/05/2010 4:30:15 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: KarenMarie
I mean fetuses that have no brain or no spine or a rare disease something horrific like that which would mean a painful life and early death.

There are some on this thread that would prefer to force you at gunpoint and under strict supervision to force you to carry this to full term without regard to what anyone else thinks. They would make that choice for you under penalty of law.

You can't be truly pro life if you don't, don't you know?

33 posted on 04/05/2010 4:30:49 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: bahblahbah
Sorry, but you will encourage sexual assault without a rape exception... encourage people to choose life, but don’t dare make it the law to carry a rapists child...

Allowing a rape exception would equally likely encourage false reports of rape.

The issue is a tough one, with no really good answers. The notion that a child should have to suffer for the sins of a parent is hardly unknown in the Bible, and the sin of a rapist should be considered grave indeed. I am unaware of anything biblically that would require that a pregnant adulteress be allowed to live long enough to give birth; killing the adulteress before she bears a child avoids any risk that the child might challenge the legitimate heirs of the woman's husband. Religiously, I thus think there's room for argument. I really don't see any resolution to the problem of false accusations, though.

34 posted on 04/05/2010 4:33:54 PM PDT by supercat (Barry Soetoro == Bravo Sierra)
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To: metmom
"What exactly is *every true purpose*?"

American Heritage Dictionary

Purpose: noun

1. The object toward which one strives or for which something exists; an aim or a goal: "And ever those, who would enjoyment gain/Must find it in the purpose they pursue" (Sarah Josepha Hale).
2. A result or effect that is intended or desired; an intention. See Synonyms at intention.
3. Determination; resolution: He was a man of purpose.
4. The matter at hand; the point at issue.

In this case the purpose would be to discourage or eliminate abortion, as method of birth control for example, or a convenient way to avoid the consequences of ones choices and actions.

A phony purpose would be to use abortion as an issue to put over one's political agenda, which I suspect ninety percent of those who claim to be against abortion most vociferously are doing. You are a good example, I think. But that's only my opinion.

Hank

35 posted on 04/05/2010 4:34:20 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Hank Kerchief
else you would not tell the lie that a fetus is and infant.

There is no practical difference between the value of a fetus and the value of an infant. If the fetus had no human value I would not oppose abortion. God is quoted that he knew someone BEFORE he was born. John the baptist leaped in the womb when he heard Mary's voice. God is very clear that the unborn are precious to Him and we should have no less respect and honor for the unborn than we do for an infant.

Even if you are an atheist, you must agree that a fetus is not merely a bunch of unorganized worthless flesh.

36 posted on 04/05/2010 4:35:32 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: Raycpa

Are you asking me that as a personal question or a rhetorical one? Are we going to discuss theories/beliefs or is this going to turn into a argument? I would love to have a discussion about this, I truly struggle with it... but I won’t have a argument or or use personal attacks or turn it into anything personal.


37 posted on 04/05/2010 4:43:15 PM PDT by KarenMarie (NEVER believe anything coming out of DC until it's been denied.)
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To: KarenMarie

The answer to that question is meant to be a personal one. It is one that I thought would help you with your own question because it helped me on this. I have no desire to argue it with you, only to give you what I found to be one of many helpful tools when I struggled with various abortion questions including the big one of imposing abortion restrictions on others.

I could share with you my changes on the issue over time but they would not be relevant to your own work on it.


38 posted on 04/05/2010 4:58:03 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: Hank Kerchief; wagglebee

You’re still talking in circles. What you posted did NOT answer the question.

Did it ever occur to you that people can be opposed to abortion for the simple fact that it’s a hideously barbaric method of execution?

If anyone killed a child or adult by hacking them apart limb from limb without anesthesia, or scalding them to death by dumping them in a vat of lye, you’d find out just how many people REALLY oppose the death penalty.

What political agenda would someone being advancing by using abortion as the issue?Instead of vaugue innuendos, why don’t you just out with it and tell us what you’re accusing us of?


39 posted on 04/05/2010 5:33:51 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Raycpa

thanks for the reply and please accept my apologies. I have seen ppl get blasted for having differing opinions. I do not ever want to go there.

As for me, personally, I don’t know. I would probably chose when I realized that the baby would not live long and would suffer. Then I would probably hate myself for it. But if I carried to term knowing that the baby would suffer before dying, I would hate myself for that too.

My grandson spent almost 6 week in PICU, twice on life support. While on life support he was on morphine. Yet, he still pulled away when the incompetent jr doctor tried to get a cannula into the vein he had just collapsed. They did many things to hurt that baby, due to their negligence and incompetence (I have a thread on the whole thing) ... and sitting there, wondering if he was in pain, if it would be long term pain, if he would recover or suffer before dying... really made me ponder a lot of things.

Watching other mothers ... one in particular, whose child had to have both legs, one arms and the finger on the remaining hand amputated, brain damage and organ failure... the boy wase hooked up to all sorts of things and kept on high level of pain meds the whole time I was there. I did not dare ask her, but I did wonder if she knew this would be the outcome would she still carry and birth. If, God forbid, I was in a position where I knew that carrying to term would result in that kind of pain and suffering... I don’t know what i would do. But I don’t know that I can see this type of thing the same as abortion as birth control.

Dunno, I just struggle with that.


40 posted on 04/05/2010 5:35:48 PM PDT by KarenMarie (NEVER believe anything coming out of DC until it's been denied.)
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To: Hank Kerchief; bcsco
Apparently you do not believe what you defend is the truth, else you would not tell the lie that a fetus is and infant.

You're making a distinction without a difference. An infant is just as much a human being as a fetus.

A baby born two months premature, at 7 months gestation is at the same level of development whether in utero or not. But if it's preborn, it's called a fetus. After delivery it's called an infant.

So how is bcsco lying by calling abortion infanticide?

41 posted on 04/05/2010 5:40:30 PM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
I've noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.

~Ronald Reagan, quoted in New York Times, 22 September 1980
42 posted on 04/05/2010 5:53:20 PM PDT by Issaquahking (Help Sarah Palin! go to - http://www.conservatives4palin.com - You know what to do!)
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To: Issaquahking

“I’ve noticed that everybody that is for abortion has already been born.”

~Ronald Reagan, quoted in New York Times, 22 September 1980

I love Ronald!

I have Reagan in His Own Hand, where he explains his decision to allow abortion in the case of rape and incest. I didn’t realize he had that position until I read it “in his own hand”.

ampu


43 posted on 04/05/2010 6:02:11 PM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: Raycpa

“There is no practical difference between the value of a fetus and the value of an infant.”

See how you people obfuscate everything. The practical difference is between a fetus and an infant, is not their “value,” but the fact a fetus is not yet born. A fetus is not an infant. You cannot go into a store and find clothing marked “fetus.” Why is that? You not only defy reason, you want to destroy the English language.

I know you have no interest in the fate of the unborn, and are only interested in putting over your political agenda to control others. Why in the world would you want to put the fate of the unborn in the hands of government—and not God? Whose agent are you anyway?

Hank


44 posted on 04/05/2010 6:10:50 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: aMorePerfectUnion
Can't believe that I'd that I'd be to the right of Reagan. All things are possible. It's to bad the whole thing is just a "what if" coughed up by the far left. The numbers are not there, but the left likes to keep the door open to justify partial birth abortions murders.
45 posted on 04/05/2010 6:14:43 PM PDT by Issaquahking (Help Sarah Palin! go to - http://www.conservatives4palin.com - You know what to do!)
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To: metmom

“What political agenda would someone being advancing by using abortion as the issue?”

You don’t know? (I do not believe you for a minute.) So you do not want to put the fate of the unborn in the hands of the government? A government that one day can make all abortions illegal and the next day demand anyone with more than two children abort all future pregnancies. You really do not see that abortion must not be a government or political issue, because once your say a government ought to be the agency that decides such things, it will surely decide them against you.

Hank


46 posted on 04/05/2010 6:17:23 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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To: Free Vulcan; presidio9
throw her in jail?

Since abortion is a species of murder, it remains murder even when the murderer is a victim of another crime herself.

However, victims of rape who commit an abortion have reason to expect clemency. I believe they should be dealt with very leniently.

47 posted on 04/05/2010 6:18:32 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: Hank Kerchief
you people obfuscate everything

The point is that a fetus is an innocent living human being. There are indeed distinctions between babies before their birth,-- fetuses,-- and babies that are already born, but neither kind is killable.

To insist on the clinical "fetus" is obfuscation; "baby" simply drives down the salient fact that they are innocent and human, and alive.

48 posted on 04/05/2010 6:24:23 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex

Do you get your definitions from Biblical sources?


49 posted on 04/05/2010 6:35:05 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (The last thing I want to do is hurt you, but it is still on my list.)
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To: metmom

“You’re making a distinction without a difference. An infant is just as much a human being as a fetus.”

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean or how it is germane to the discussion. I certainly would regard an infant a human being, because it is born. All human beings are born. A fetus is not born and is not regarded as a human being either legally or Biblically. Notice that all ages are from the date of birth, not conception.

An infant has been born, and fetus has not. I think even you can understand that.

I am opposed to abortion and am very alarmed by those who claim to be opposed to it but use lies and obfuscation to promote their views, because it has the opposite result and cancels the efforts of those of use who honestly oppose abortion.

Hank


50 posted on 04/05/2010 6:41:16 PM PDT by Hank Kerchief
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