Mrs. OLA driving the BBB.
Cheers,
OLA
Posted on 04/18/2010 11:18:35 PM PDT by CutePuppy
The federal government is rethinking the way to calculate fuel-efficiency ratings for electric vehicles, a move that will likely result in a significant reduction in the miles-per-gallon claims some auto makers have touted for the battery-powered cars they plan to launch later this year.
Using a preliminary formula released by the Environmental Protection Agency, General Motors Co. last year announced its Chevy Volt would be rated at 230 miles per gallon in city driving, and Nissan Motor Co. said its Leaf electric car would get the equivalent of 367 mpg.
But now the agency is in the midst of finalizing that formula in a way that will deliver more down-to-earth mileage ratings, according to several people familiar with the situation.
"We're working with EPA staff on testing of labels that will provide meaningful information to the consumer," GM spokesman Greg Martin said this week. "What we're finding is that the Volt and other electric vehicles defy conventional mileage labels."
An EPA spokeswoman said the agency hasn't made a decision on testing electric vehicles.
The mileage expectation reflected a new methodology for electric and plug-in hybrid cars that factored in electricity used to try to reach a miles-per-gallon equivalent. The intent was to allow consumers to measure the vehicles against conventional gasoline-powered autos. The final figures will do the same, but the EPA is trying to come up with better ways to compare electric power with gasoline.
To calculate a miles-per-gallon figure for a vehicle that runs either partially or fully on battery power, GM had cited an EPA formula that attempts to convert electric-energy consumption into a gasoline equivalent. The Department of Energy process cited by Nissan considers 82 kilowatt hours of electricity to be equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.
.....
Both automakers have since toned down the statements.
.....
(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...
How about energy $/mi?
That’s the correct idea!
Miles per dollar.
including taxes.
I found that quote from GM guy hilarious.
They don’t even get to $/mi and how long they will need to charge, and the entire issues with mobility (which is why they need dual-mode / backup generator or engine) though electric drive train has some advantages.
Didn’t you hear? “Electridicy is fwee.”
Greetings CutePuppy:
Dual mode is an absolute necessity. We have an rechargable 4WD ulility vehicle for our farm, a Bad Boy Buggy. We love our BBB. But given the rugged terrain, even with new batteries; the BBB was never good for the advertised travel distance/time frame between battery charges.
And we learned the hard way early on. The BBB quit in a ravine, about a mile from home. We had to tow the BBB up the hill and home to the wall outlet.
Cheers,
OLA
That is exactly my thought from the beginning of the electric car hype. The mpg ratings have been bogus and misleading, ignoring the total energy cost.
My bet is it won't look so impressive when you run the engine to charge the battery. Just like a Prius gets less than my daughters Cougar and the Cougar will blow the Prius doors off. We once took a trip to Alabama with 3 people and a full trunk and averaged 39.8 mpg. Many hybrids brag about less than 35 mpg. Even in town driving is usually over 32 mpg for her Cougar.
The Volt would be great if you live less than 20 miles from work. Otherwise the engine will charge the battery and that will be the average cost per mile with or without a charge. It will look good because you are basically "coasting" for 40 miles without gas. I figure it shouldn't cost $3-$5 for an overnight charge. At $3 a day, that could be $60 a month not counting gasoline.
They finally figured out that dualmode is a necessity (both for energy availability and redundancy, unless it’s a special purpose / light use / limited range government vehicle), but not only this adds significantly to the cost of vehicle but also puts entire all-electric idea into doubt for mass consumption.
And we are not even talking about the infrastructure and time necessary for charging the batteries. Until and unless they come up with the high capacity portable (drop-in) replacement batteries infrastructure (available in the stations and/or convenience stores) all-electrics will not become a reality in significant percentage of general consumer ownership.
Yeah, it doesn’t take too long or that much effort to figure out the real costs and understand that math just doesn’t work.
That’s probably one reason they keep trying to sell the hybrids and alternative-fuel vehicles on the “save the planet” argument. Of course, that’s because electricity and alternative fuels are “clean” and “green” and are generated “somewhere else” (but not in Saudi Arabia, Iraq or other “evil oil countries”) so it doesn’t cause “pollution” or “global warming”.
I know it was not a funny situation, but this would be my luck. It’s like my cell phone, many times I have forgotten to charge it and dropped a call. Not cool to drop a ride though.
You forgot to add the “unexpectedly lower” MPG tag. Remember it’s not lying or statistical manipulation if you just add that phrase. We all know the EPA is our friend and would never engage in bad science.
Mrs. OLA driving the BBB.
Cheers,
OLA
Not much good at math but an energy dollar isn’t a constant, is it?
On the highway, I can get nearly 30mpg in my 2003 Cadillac DeVille DHS and 24mpg around town. Tell me, who wants to drive cross country in a Cadillac vs a Volt, or a Prius, or a Smart Car? And that’s with a fully loaded trunk, 2 people, and large dog!
I got to see my Volt Engr-ing "gnome" @ a tea party rally on the 15th. Yes it is getting close to a go.
This is a knife in Bob Lutz's heart after he leaves.
It was Lutz's goal to esentially show the stupidity in the EPA/Joan Claybrook system by obliterating it with a paradigm changing drivetrain. The EPA eventually had to agree with their request for a waiver for how the mileage was to be calculated because the way the driveline works is so different it didn't fit in their narrow minded fedzilla mindset boxes.
Like Pelosi's comback after the Scott Brown Victory, it is becoming obvious we are dealing with a different vampire here....
A gasoline pump transfers energy at about 10 Megawatts, a 25 AMP/220 Volt circuit a much more modest 0.0055 Megawatts.
I wonder how many people are going to be electrocuted or die in fires resulting from automobile recharging systems. The electric car is the most hair brained idea of this century. Or as President Obama would phrase it, the beginning of good, sustainable green jobs.
I have a friend who got laid off at 64 from HP (he worked for a unit acquired from DEC). For a retirement job he's working pro-bono for a company that does photovoltaic installations. The cost of a home system is about $35,000 dollars. About $14,000 can be recovered as a tax credit. That means that the home owner is still on the hook for $21,000. For that $21,000 the home owner has the opportunity to generate some of his own electricity, worth about $0.16/kW-hr and to wholesale some electricity to the power company at $0.08/kW-Hr. For a typical home owner whose electric bill is about $80/month the payback period would exceed well over 20 years (he's only able to generate some of his own electricity and then only when the sunshines) assuming that he can borrow money interest free, and there are no associated maintenance costs. One other offset is that the electric companies are compelled to pay $0.50/kW-HR for "carbon credits"!, which still doesn't make this scheme economically viable, or as as President Obama would phrase it, these are good, sustainable green jobs. Photovoltaics are the second most hairbrained scheme of this century.
Thats the right idea, except that the value ($) is not constant. They need to come up with some kind of rating, say, based on 2010 (at a specific date) average cost per kilowatt-hour, and price per gallon of regular gas, and keep that unchanged.
It’s like bragging that an electric water heater is 100% efficient since 100% of the fuel energy goes to heating water. ZERO pollution too! WHAT A DEAL!
How about charging the batteries of the toy car with a gas generator and then see how far it will go?
www.aptera.com
A friend of mine has one on order. Looks like a Stemme motorglider from the front.
At what wattage? How do we calculate cost of consumption? Assuming that of a standard appliance like a window a/c at .15 cents per khw we get a cost of $12.3 per gallon of gas.
I know I'm probably doing something wrong here, help?
It also creates no pollution (ignore that smokestack behind the curtain}
The Department of Energy process cited by Nissan considers 82 kilowatt hours of electricity to be equivalent to one gallon of gasoline.A kWh is 1000 watts for one hour, so your answer is essentially there above (82,000 watts for one hour, or more likely 1000 watts for 82 hours). My gut says you'll need 220VAC to charge these vehicles (I'll admit ignorance on this topic). However, the cost of having an electrician wire in a new electrical panel and a receptacle to handle charging these vehicles would be cost prohibitive to most people (something I would hope the vehicle manufacturers would take into account). I don't think the idea is viable unless owners of these vehicles are able to charge from a standard 15 amp 110 wall outlet. Of course all of the vehicles I have seen with this type of technology cannot recoup the cost of the initial outlay (original purchase of the vehicle from the dealer) over the reasonable life of the car.At what wattage?
The federal government is rethinking the way to calculate fuel-efficiency ratings = Now that we own Gm and MoPar how can we take over Toyota ans Honda tax the hell out of them?.
Many moons ago, one of my science professors said that there is a tremendous efficiency loss in changing one form of energy to another.
Furthermore the infrastructure requirments and power grid are going to be tremendous. The Green Jobs newly legalized illegal immigrant day laborers are going to have to crank those generators really really fast to spit out trillions of megawatts to the local Exxon, Shell, Chevron stations so Al Gore can fill up his Chebby Volt.
I've always believed that energy sources that are not economically mobile such as nuclear, and coal, should be used for powering things that don't move: buildings.
Gasoline, propane, etc. for cars, trucks, buses, trains, airplanes, fork lifts...
Don't ferget yer extension cords either.
Invest in copper!
I wish I knew where you were getting your information about the Cougar. What year are you talking about? Motor Trend doesn't give any Cougar model an EPA rating of better than 29 highway.
In the real world, my family of 4 vacationing in a Prius often averages over 45mpg, at 70+mph speeds. My wife easily does over 50mpg because she drives the speed limit.
I'm dissappointed when my Prius gets below 40mpg, which it sometimes does in the cold of winter.
Read the post again......I OWN ONE! I personally drove it on vacation to Alabama. I got 39.8 mpg. It is the 4 cyl 5 speed stick. That IS REAL WORLD.
The reason I bothered to post was to show that if the Volt comes out with 300 mpg, it will NOT be real world. Mine was a real world suggestion. The government says the Health care bill will save us money, do you really trust the EPA numbers?
You can compare the long curves of energy dollar for each “fuel” and especially the ones that include another “fuel” (like coal or oil used to generate electricity) as their components. And electricity is mostly controlled by government regulated monopolies so its cost and the rise in cost curve are somewhat more predictable, while oil / gasoline prices are still driven by relatively free, though highly regulated in other respects, market.
That’s one reason corn ethanol was almost immediately found to be uncompetitive as the components and process of its production were more expensive, not to mention found to be harmful to environment and the vehicles themselves as well as lower effective energy output.
Exactly. Stationary energy sources for stationary things / structures; mobile / portable and quickly refillable / replaceable energy sources such as gasoline or natgas, should be used for mobile things that move over distances.
Invest in copper!
Might also consider zinc and lithium, though no commodity is a sure thing as an investment.
Miles per BTU of energy burned... that’s a true comparison.
Whether the BTU is burned in an internal combustion engine, or at a power plant down grid somewhere.
That’s the only apples to apples comparison I can think of.
I found the official EPA ratings notoriously unreliable, and usually on conservative side of actual, real life driving experience, both in city and highway driving.
Though recent ethanol additions to gasoline mix have noticeably reduced effective mileage and resulted in higher maintenance costs.
Interesting if can be made practical. $/mi or mi/$ are essentially the same idea and can be easily tested practically, while BTU still relies on a formula and depends on efficiency and effective output of the plant, i.e. has an element and margins of a guess.
While the numbers vary depending on the energy conversion involved (elements and process), from the numbers I saw over time I usually apply average of about 30%-35% loss for conversions. That seriously skews the efficiency and price curves, and competitiveness given the rise in total cost.
Furthermore the infrastructure requirments and power grid are going to be tremendous.
And we don't have overcapacity of electricity now, and can hardly cope with the increase in electricity consumtion during summer (AC's) or winter (heaters). Additional demand from plug-ins, even at night, is not going to be painless or inexpensive.
Nukes would go a long way to help with the grid issues, but that's long way off, and doesn't solve the mobility problems.
Thank you very much for the clarification.
$$ per Mi is impossible to do, as rates for electrical generation and gasoline are not constant, that’s got far more SWAP in it that Miles per BTU.
I meant where you got the information that your 4-cylinder 5-speed stick would “blow the doors off” the Prius.
The 6-cylinder would do so, handily, but it gets poorer gas mileage.
Anyway, I do miss shifting.
I am not that surprised, especially considering additional significant loss of efficiency in the process of DC [re]generation.
I also suspect that there is inherent relative inefficiency of DC compared to AC (besides long distance transmission) which helped Tesla and Westinghouse prevail over Edison.
I had a 67 Camero 327 4 speed that would barely get into the 14's. This is about that quick off the line. I could catch it in the long run, but it wouldn't be embarrassing for the little 4 cyl. I've done my share of racing and a Prius wouldn't be my first choice. I bought the Cougar for my daughter with 19k miles on it for $10k in 2001. The Prius would be at least twice that amount and she would have to drive it a long time to pay the difference in gas mileage, not to mention, the embarrassment of driving a Prius. She has 130k miles on it and she has replaced the brakes and 2 sets of tires,...that's it! We are waiting for a clutch to be needed, but I bet a clutch is cheaper than a battery pack.
The Prius has a very firm top speed at about 100 mph. Since the speed is entirely controlled by the electronics driving the electric motor, it’s set in the software. The max speed corresponds to the limit of the rotation speed for the electric motor, since the Prius has no transmission. The electric motor can rotate to provide speeds from 0 to 100.
Electric motors have good instantaneous response, but the entire motor/engine combination has a pretty small total horsepower. But it’s total HP is now 134 (for 2010 — my version is 110 hp), and can to 0-60 in 10.6 seconds (the 2010 model is 9.8).
Edmunds says the 2004 Prius quarter-mile is 17.7, compared to a 16.5 for a Jetta TDI. If so, your Cougar would beat it, assuming you shifted well (again, the Prius has no “shifting”, which means it is very smooth on acceleration, and pretty boring to drive).
But what I like is the instantaneous acceleration, say from 60-70mph, which the electric motor is good at.
FOX NEWS
The Futility of Hybrid Cars
Thursday, February 05, 2009
By Steven Milloy
Could plug-in hybrid cars actually increase greenhouse gas emissions? Is energy efficiency being oversold as a greenhouse gas reduction measure? A new report from the research arm of Congress raises troubling questions about the direction in which President Obama is taking us.
Produced by the Congressional Research Service (CRS), Carbon Control in the U.S. Electricity Sector: Key Implementation Uncertainties provides the lowdown on a variety of carbon control options for the electric power sector, including energy efficiency
, renewable energy, nuclear power, advanced coal technology, carbon capture and sequestration, plug-in hybrid vehicles and small-scale power generation technologies.
President Obama has proposed that we reduce our CO2 emissions to 1990 levels by 2020. For the electric power sector, this goal translates to reducing what is projected to be 2.6 billion metric tons of CO2 emitted in 2020 to approximately the 1.8 billion metric tons of CO2 that were emitted in 1990 — a more than 30 percent reduction in emissions over a period of about 10 years.
Could this goal be achieved through gains in energy efficiency? Numerous private and government sources have claimed, after all, that 25- to 30-percent gains in efficiency are possible over a 5- to 15-year time horizon. But according to the CRS, “the diffuse nature of efficiency opportunity and the economic complexity of decision making” has historically made moving beyond the 5 percent to 7 percent electricity savings range “a persistent challenge to conservation proponents.” Although more aggressive policies could be attempted, the CRS says, there is “little track record upon which to base projections of future effectiveness.”
Excerpt
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,488546,00.html
That makes it just plain dumb.
The immutable laws of nature, physics and economics will never stop liberals from trying to change them through tyranny of legislation, mandates or regulation.
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