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DAVID KORESH: MILLENNIAL VIOLENCE
TRUTV.com - Library - Crime ^ | Date unknown | By Katherine Ramsland

Posted on 04/19/2010 1:46:54 AM PDT by Cindy

DAVID KORESH: MILLENNIAL VIOLENCE

David Koresh and the Waco Incident: Both Sides Prepare

By Katherine Ramsland

David Koresh, 1987 A number of people, both witnesses and historians, have tried to accurately document the facts of what happened on February 28th, 1993 in Waco, Texas in the clash between law enforcement and a religious group known as the Branch Davidians. No one seems able to write about those events in an unbiased manner, since it seems that the whole thing was preventable. Even the academics appear to have a cause, so it's difficult at times to piece together what actually happened and who was to blame. Was Koresh a manipulative psychopath who exploited an opportunity, as many FBI agents claim, or was he just a deluded religious leader whose private play was suddenly exposed on the world's stage? Perhaps we'll never know.

Hostage negotiator Christopher Whitcomb, writing in Cold Zero, and true crime writer Clifford Linedecker in Massacre at Waco, Texas both present a chronology of the facts on that momentous Sunday morning."

(Excerpt) Read more at trutv.com ...


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: coldzero; davidians; koresh; massacereatwaco; texas; waco
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1 posted on 04/19/2010 1:46:54 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: Cindy

link doesn’t work


2 posted on 04/19/2010 1:53:35 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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To: Steve Van Doorn

Same here. I get a “forbidden” message.


3 posted on 04/19/2010 1:55:08 AM PDT by Ronin
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Comment #4 Removed by Moderator

To: Cindy

Can’t get in to read the whole story. Maybe you could post it.
Thanks


5 posted on 04/19/2010 1:56:38 AM PDT by dixjea
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To: dixjea

It worked a few minutes ago and the url is correct.

It’s a long account.

It could be the author or site is updating right now.


6 posted on 04/19/2010 1:58:48 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: Steve Van Doorn

Thanks Mr. Van Doorn.

#

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/not_guilty/koresh/1.html


7 posted on 04/19/2010 1:59:57 AM PDT by Cindy
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To: Steve Van Doorn

This link doesn’t work for me.


8 posted on 04/19/2010 2:00:00 AM PDT by dixjea
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scroll down to David Koresh:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/notorious_murders/not_guilty/

real strange in preview the link works.

9 posted on 04/19/2010 2:02:28 AM PDT by Steve Van Doorn (*in my best Eric cartman voice* 'I love you guys')
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To: Ronin

And I am interested in this topic, as I am sure a lot of other people are, because I see a lot of Janet Reno in Janet Napolitano — with this recent “crackdown” on a “Militia-like ‘Cult’ of Religious Fanatics” as a case in point.

We have Muslim jihadis training in the woods all over the country, we have Muslim diplomats setting off smoke alarms in airplanes and laughing in our faces, we have close to full scale drug wars and other threats on our southern border — and we have a “Homeland Security” department that is convinced that the greatest threat to the country is a tiny group of loony-tunes who couldn’t plot their way out of a paper bag.

With Obama and Napolitano calling the shots, the question is not whether there will be another “Waco” massacre.

It’s when.


10 posted on 04/19/2010 2:04:45 AM PDT by Ronin
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To: Ronin
With Obama and Napolitano calling the shots, the question is not whether there will be another “Waco” massacre. It’s when.

For whatever it's worth, that is how I see it, too.

11 posted on 04/19/2010 2:22:13 AM PDT by backhoe (Just an Old Keyboard Cowboy, ridin' the trakball into America's Twilight...)
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To: Ronin
...the question is not whether there will be another “Waco” massacre. It’s when.

Yep.

12 posted on 04/19/2010 2:32:32 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Cindy

Please post link, this seems like a good article.

My daughter chose to do a report on Timothy McVeigh for school (I bet that’ll raise a few flags, LOL!) and in helping her research him, I’m finding out a lot about Waco that the main stream news didn’t report.


13 posted on 04/19/2010 3:11:40 AM PDT by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the chariot wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: Cindy

14 posted on 04/19/2010 4:24:09 AM PDT by FReepaholic (I'm in my head and can't get out.)
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To: Ronin
"And I am interested in this topic, as I am sure a lot of other people are, because I see a lot of Janet Reno in Janet Napolitano — with this recent “crackdown” on a “Militia-like ‘Cult’ of Religious Fanatics” as a case in point. "

This resurgence of old news about WACO and about Timothy McVeigh are just back door attempts by the left to tie the TEA party movement to such fanatics.

The TEA party movement are the "langoliers" chomping their way over the hill towards the commie left and they see their world being eaten away little by little and they are "shared skitless".

Now, here's the thing, the TEA party movement is not a cult, it's not a militia, and it's not a band of nuts; it is American citizens fed up with "Washington reborn."

There is not use for them to keep up the "incrimination by association" with the Wacos and Oklahoma bombings of the world, because there isn't any association with those nutballs and the TEA party movement.

The TEA party movement are not "government haters", as the bent on, bill clinton, is trying to portray. They just think that government has overstepped the bounds of the Constitution and is starting down a tyrannical path to socialism...which is by definition, "communism-lite".

But the left and their adoring media have taken on the job of exposing the TEA party movememt...but here's my question...EXPOSE IT TO WHOM?

Conservatives, and moderates already know what the TEA party movement is...hell, 30% of TEA partiers are democrats, for crying out loud.

So basically, the obamabots and the media (but I repeat myself) are in a big circle jerk trying to convince each other of the same thing...and the funny part is, THEY'RE FALLING FOR IT.

Everyday some greenhorn columnist comes out with new revelation that the TEA party movement is "racist". Well, we've only heard that a few million times in the past few months, but so far even a $100,000 guaranteed reward for proof of such has failed to flush out a winner.

The left has played a whole deck of race cards and nothing has come of it. The days of the "casual" use of the race card, are over. It's now "prove it" time...it's "walk your talk, or shutup" time.

They ARE a little slow on the left, but they will soon discover that the more they discredit the TEA party movement, the more people join it. People who are not yet on the TEA party wagon will soon figure out that for something to be so feared, there must be something good about it, and for the left to fear it so, they must be doing something pretty bad.

The millions of people who showed up at the nation's many TEA party movement events this past year were not dressed in camoflauge, there were no weapons, there were no militants. There were men, women, and children of all ages and races, dressed in red, white, and blue.

The diseased hatred for the TEA party movement is based on the left's fear and ignorance, and their guilty consciences knowing what their socialist agenda is foisting upon the heads of present and future Americans.

They can call it what they want, but we will KEEP ON COMING. The TEA party movement will never end; this charade that has invaded Washington has shown people what can happen if we go to sleep at the wheel, and I think after this is fixed, Americans will be more viligent than ever concerning the government, and the democrat party will have suffered a blow that will take a long time to overcome, if ever.
15 posted on 04/19/2010 6:19:56 AM PDT by FrankR (Those of us who love AMERICA far outnumber those who love obama - your choice.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Doubt it...not because Owe-bama and Napolitano wouldn’t ‘go there’ but because we won’t see another idiot refuse to come out when given the chance, and thereby save his followers.

The simple truth is Koresh was a whack job, and in that regard was no different than Jim Jones. Had Koresh surrendered, every one of those that died in that inferno would be alive today, and he’s be out of jail.


16 posted on 04/19/2010 7:37:37 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
"Had Koresh surrendered, every one of those that died in that inferno would be alive today, and he’s be out of jail."

There were 16 ATF agents wounded and 4 killed. Koresh would have been held responsible for them. I think he would have gotten life w/out parole. However, besides the nutjob Koresh we had a federal agency (ATF) that was out to prove something. Instead of taking him into custody when he was out in town or something, they had to confront him in his compound knowing that he had a stockpile of weapons. I think there were some Rambos in the ATF that wanted an armed conflict. They got more than they bargained for.
17 posted on 04/19/2010 7:59:51 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Badeye
...Had Koresh surrendered, every one of those that died in that inferno would be alive today...

Had the ATF arrested Koresh in town when they had the chance instead of staging a raid for the TV cameras and had the FBI not attacked the church with tanks, they might be alive today.


18 posted on 04/19/2010 8:06:14 AM PDT by FReepaholic (I'm in my head and can't get out.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden
For Bill Clinton to lecture anyone on violence is
staggering:

He supports the murder of 50 million young Americans

It has been testified to that he has violently raped
and/or murdered woman.

Bill Clinton should be seeking the face of YHvH
for being the Butcher of Mount Carmel Texas.

He burned down a Church and murdered 85
men women and children in a manner that the
ACLU will not permit for our most heinous killers.

The Murders of Waco Texas was a watershed
of loss of G-d given liberties to our Government.

He also murdered four of his former Arkansas
State Patrollers who knew too much about
his perversions.


19 posted on 04/19/2010 8:08:10 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: UriĀ’el-2012
PERJURY !


20 posted on 04/19/2010 8:09:37 AM PDT by timestax (The so called news media is the enemy of freedom....timestax)
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To: FReepaholic

bttt


21 posted on 04/19/2010 8:10:34 AM PDT by ConservativeMan55
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To: Badeye
The simple truth is Koresh was a whack job, and in that regard was no different than Jim Jones. Had Koresh surrendered, every one of those that died in that inferno would be alive today, and he’s be out of jail.

The simple truth is that the BATF were doing the typical loose cannon gambit. When you can inspect arms, and are invited to, refuse and have a grandstand raid later, then blame the people you attack. Alone, perhaps you could blame Waco on a "whackjob", but there had been a string of escalating, violent, encounters between federal agents and people they allegedly wanted to arrest, from Randy Weaver, to Gordon Kahl, to Koresh, and all could have been arrested alone in a relatively peaceful operation. Instead, Weaver and Kahl were bushwhacked, and Koresh, instead of being arrested outside the Mt. Carmel facillity, was atacked by nearly 100 federal agents in a 'surprise' operation which had been blown over a half hour before. BTW, Koresh is dead, not in jail.

Federal excess led to slaughter in each instance.

22 posted on 04/19/2010 8:15:24 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

I don’t dispute the government screwed up big time that first day.

What I am stating is Koresh could have walked out at any time, received excellent legal representation, and would be alive, and out of prison today. And every one of those that died in the inferno would also be alive.

The simple truth is Koresch was a very very poor ‘leader’, and sorry, claiming he was ‘rise from the dead’ ala Jesus Christ makes him a certifiable whack job.

Randy Weaver? Feds screwed that man big time.

don’t know about Kahl.


23 posted on 04/19/2010 8:24:10 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: FReepaholic

I don’t dispute what you say here.

My point is Koresh could have surrendered at any point, choose not to, and as a direct result of THAT DECISION at the End was the final mistake that cost all those lives.

He had 52 days. He made a decision, and we know the result.


24 posted on 04/19/2010 8:30:06 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
"What I am stating is Koresh could have walked out at any time, received excellent legal representation, and would be alive, and out of prison today. And every one of those that died in the inferno would also be alive."

You are attributing sane and rational decisions to someone who was clearly not sane and rational. The BATF (as known back then) knew that he was a whackjob. Instead of arresting him, they chose to escalate the incident.

Sure, Koresh was responsible, however it is mitigated by the fact that he was a nutjob with a messiah complex. The sane and rational ones (agents in the BATF) could have avoided all of this to begin with. They have the greater responsibility and greater sin in this whole tragic affair.
25 posted on 04/19/2010 8:33:26 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

I agree with most of what you wrote. I will however, disagree with the assertion he would have been found guilty related to those wounded and killed, personally. The fact is we’ll never know who inside was firing rounds ‘out’ at the ATF, because there are no forensics available to analyze, such as GPR on hands, fingerprints to match up with specific weapons fired that first day, or in the days and weeks after. Given that, its unlikely prosecutors would have tried to get convictions for murder, or attempted murder against Koresh...just my opinion on that specific aspect.


26 posted on 04/19/2010 8:34:38 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye

We can certainly disagree with how a trial would have turned out. It would have been as big as the OJ trial. Of that I’m sure. Someone like him would have represented himself. After all, God doesn’t need a lawyer, right? He would have gotten up in court and made rambling speeches. Perfect for TV.

It would have also put the ATF and its senior agents on the scene on trial along with him. At least in the court of public opinion. Another reason why the ATF did not want a living Koresh to come out of there. They were pushing to raid that compound for a long time during the standoff while the FBI negotiators were holding them back. Then they bulldozed the compound later, thus erasing any evidence of anything. That “crime scene” was not properly investigated...


27 posted on 04/19/2010 8:39:52 AM PDT by Old Teufel Hunden
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

I don’t see us being ‘very apart’ in our view of this tragedy.

I’m certainly not giving a pass to the government for their role.


28 posted on 04/19/2010 8:42:44 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Old Teufel Hunden

I’ll just note OJ walked, and the evidence against him was crystal clear.


29 posted on 04/19/2010 8:43:31 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye

Lots of people made bad decisions in that deal.


30 posted on 04/19/2010 9:42:32 AM PDT by FReepaholic (I'm in my head and can't get out.)
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To: FReepaholic

True, but the last one Koresh made got all his remaining followers incinerated. THAT was completely, totally, avoidable.


31 posted on 04/19/2010 10:29:52 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
True, but the last one Koresh made got all his remaining followers incinerated. THAT was completely, totally, avoidable.

Many of Koresh's followers survived. At least one testified before Congress about the raid. From what I've read none of those Davidian survivors were ever convicted any of the allegations that the government accused them of.

32 posted on 04/19/2010 12:14:37 PM PDT by Ajnin
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To: Badeye

I was wrong on my last post, several Davadians were actually convicted of various charges.


33 posted on 04/19/2010 12:21:25 PM PDT by Ajnin
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To: Ajnin

Minor charges resulted in convictions, but they are all out of jail today from what I understand.


34 posted on 04/19/2010 12:43:08 PM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Ajnin

Yep.


35 posted on 04/19/2010 12:43:23 PM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
"Had Koresh surrendered, every one of those that died in that inferno would be alive today, and he’s be out of jail."

If the BATFE had arrested Koresh on one of his many excursions out of the compound, none of this would have happened at all. But the BATFE was looking for a propaganda coup, so went with the "dynamic entry" assault, and it backfired big time.

Koresh may have been a whackjob, but even whackjobs are supposed to have rights under our Constitution.

36 posted on 04/19/2010 3:02:41 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Badeye
What I am stating is Koresh could have walked out at any time, received excellent legal representation, and would be alive, and out of prison today.

Koresh met them at the door and spoke with them. Who started shooting? Who came with 100 pumped up agents, armed to the teeth?

Nope.

Even when they knew the operation was blown, that the Davidians had notice, (yes, the lines were tapped), they went ahead and did the raid anyway.

If there was no desire for bloodshed, they would have postponed the grandstand op and picked up Koresh in town.

The BATF just bit off more than they could chew.

Still, there were more decisions, among them to pump the building full of CS, carried in methylene chloride. Keep in mind, that this building is full of women and children, and then go look up the MSDS on Methylene Chloride. (Just in case you don't, it's in carburettor cleaner, and it's nasty stuff--inhaled, worn, or burned up in.)

You obviously are not familliar with the events of that day if you think the Davidians were going to get off without getting their dogs shot and their kitties stomped.

37 posted on 04/20/2010 3:06:02 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

“Koresh may have been a whackjob, but even whackjobs are supposed to have rights under our Constitution.”

Bears repeating. And I might add that being in the right is a dangerous place to be when the government is wrong.


38 posted on 04/20/2010 3:41:34 AM PDT by Badray (sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Smokin' Joe

You ignore my point completely. Why?

My point is Koresh would be ALIVE today had he walked out and surrendered. So would the 80 plus that died with him, including all those children.

You state ‘keep in mind this building was full of women and children’. Indeed.

Didn’t stop Koresh from insisting they die ‘in place’ did it?

A good ‘leader’s’ first responsibility is to those that follow him. Koresh was a nutcase, and as a result of his insane messiah complex over 80 people died that horrible day.

I do not dispute the government screwed this up. I know why they went in the way they did, it was because they needed a PR win to fight expected budget cuts. I know as much about the ‘details’ of this mess as anyone. Including the more ridiculous claims which I just shake my head at.

But the fact is Koresh had over 50 days to save his followers. His choice was no different than the one Jim Jones made.

btw, I’m still waiting for him to ‘rise from the dead’. Are you?


39 posted on 04/20/2010 6:43:26 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Wonder Warthog

I don’t dispute the the government screwed up big time on the day this began.

My point is Koresh was a nutcase that got all his followers killed for no reason other than his megalomania. As I just noted, he could have walked out at any time during the standoff, they’d all be alive today.

His choice in the end was no different than Jim Jones.


40 posted on 04/20/2010 6:46:21 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
My point is Koresh would be ALIVE today had he walked out and surrendered.

My point is that there should have been no confrontation. BTW, the only people we have to testify as to who shot first aren't exactly impartial. The BATF knew the raid had been compromised at least a half hour before.

You don't mount a raid with 100 armed agents unless you are expecting a gunfight.

If you are expecting a hostile reception and know the raid has been compromised, you either call the raid off, or find another way unless it is absolutely essential the raid happen.

It wasn't.

They didn't.

No one, once fired upon, harrassed, etc. is going to just run out the door. The gentleman who tried to get into the facility was gunned down and left to hang on the fence.

Would you think you were going to just be allowed to surrender?

Blame who you will, but the people who could have prevented unnecessary deaths in all of the examples I cited were the Feds.

Different and less confrontational tactics might not have made grandstand video for the six o'clock news, but the job would have been done without unnecessary bloodshed, even if it made for a less spectacular story.

41 posted on 04/20/2010 7:06:56 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Again, I acknowledge your viewpoint it never would have happened if the government hadn’t screwed up in the first place.

But the end game remains Koresh was insane, and he got his followers killed for no gain whatsoever.


42 posted on 04/20/2010 7:21:49 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2496450/posts
43 posted on 04/20/2010 7:35:35 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: Badeye
"My point is Koresh was a nutcase that got all his followers killed for no reason other than his megalomania. As I just noted, he could have walked out at any time during the standoff, they’d all be alive today. His choice in the end was no different than Jim Jones."

Your point is irrelevant. The BATFE is the guilty party here. Koresh "might" have been guilty of some firearms technicality, which might have been a misdemeanor or a very low grade felony. The BATFE escalated it into mass murder. The BATFE had NO reason whatsoever for the tactics used, none, other than chest-thumping glory-hounding agency pride.

And no, it's not the same as the Jim Jones case. Jones wasn't under military assault (or at least not yet).

44 posted on 04/20/2010 7:40:13 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Badeye
The very first person shot that day was Koresh. He was not armed at the time. The government agents were already shooting the penned up dogs.

I can't blame him for not surrendering. He was likely a nutjob, but we have laws and due process. None of those things were respected by those who were sworn to uphold them.

45 posted on 04/20/2010 7:41:45 AM PDT by ex 98C MI Dude (Alea Iacta Est)
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To: Wonder Warthog

‘Your point is irrelevant.’

Tell that to the dead.


46 posted on 04/20/2010 8:25:15 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: ex 98C MI Dude

Again, I don’t dispute the government screwed up.

Koresh, however, got those last 80 plus holdouts killed by his decision not to surrender at some point during the 50 plus day standoff.

They’d all be alive today if he had not made that insane decision.


47 posted on 04/20/2010 8:26:42 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Smokin' Joe

Thanks for the link, I’m familiar with it.


48 posted on 04/20/2010 8:27:25 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Badeye
"Tell that to the dead."

The fault lies with those who initiated the confrontation, which was not Koresh. You can beat the point to death, it won't make you right. ALL lives lost sit at the doorstep of the BATFE, not David Koresh.

49 posted on 04/20/2010 9:06:44 AM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: Wonder Warthog

My ‘point’ is Koresh was a nutcase and a poor leader. And on that one point, I’m 100% correct.

I have yet to dispute any claim about the government screwing this up, from start to finish.

But hey, build a strawman to knock down if you really feel the urge, no problem here.


50 posted on 04/20/2010 9:27:49 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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