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An M-16 In Your Pocket
Strategy Page ^ | 419/2010 | Strategy Page

Posted on 04/19/2010 6:44:07 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld

One area of weapons development that has seen a lot of new, but generally unnoticed, developments in the past decade is the PDW (Personal Defense Weapon, or pistol replacement). One recent example is the Rock River Arms PPS (Performance Piston System) Pistol. This is a 5.56mm weapon that uses a new internal design. It has a short gas piston, with the recoil spring and guide rod over the 21cm (8 inch) barrel. The entire weapon (which does not have a stock) is 44.5cm (17.5 inches) long and weighs 2.2 kg (5 pounds). There are single shot and full automatic versions, each costing $1,335. If you want a smaller PDW, you often have to go with smaller ammunition. Thus a recent Chinese PDW design uses a 4.6x30mm round. The new weapon is a variant of the Type 79 PFW (which uses the old Russian 7.62x25mm round). The new weapon weighs 1.6 kg (3.6 pounds) and has a 30 round, dual stack, magazine. Rate of fire is single, 400 or 600 rounds per minute. It has a Picatinny rail on top for scopes and sights. With the telescopic stock closed, the weapon is 34cm (13.4 inches) long, and 54cm (21.2 inches) with the stock extended. The weapon is gas operated with a closed bolt.

(Excerpt) Read more at strategypage.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Technical
KEYWORDS: 556mm; automaticweapon; banglist; bullet; m16; orareyouhappytoseeme; pdw; rifle
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1 posted on 04/19/2010 6:44:07 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: sonofstrangelove

cool


2 posted on 04/19/2010 6:45:59 PM PDT by GeronL (Cargo Cult Liberalism isn't going to work.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

This thread is worthless without pics.


3 posted on 04/19/2010 6:49:01 PM PDT by Ronin
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To: sonofstrangelove

A picture would be worth a thousand words.


4 posted on 04/19/2010 6:49:36 PM PDT by VoiceOfBruck (earthlings make me very angry)
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To: Ronin

Look it up.


5 posted on 04/19/2010 6:50:02 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: sonofstrangelove

No, I’m just happy to see you...


6 posted on 04/19/2010 6:54:19 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 452 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: sonofstrangelove
pretty...


7 posted on 04/19/2010 6:54:42 PM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: Ronin

8 posted on 04/19/2010 6:56:02 PM PDT by mnehring
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To: Ronin

9 posted on 04/19/2010 6:56:12 PM PDT by Bosco (Remember how you felt on September 11?)
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To: sonofstrangelove

10 posted on 04/19/2010 6:56:28 PM PDT by HangnJudge
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To: HangnJudge

That’s gonna take a B I G Pocket.

;-)


11 posted on 04/19/2010 6:57:00 PM PDT by Halgr (Once a Marine, always a Marine - Semper Fi)
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Bundeswehr MP7
12 posted on 04/19/2010 6:58:22 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: sonofstrangelove
Do you mean This One?
13 posted on 04/19/2010 6:58:25 PM PDT by mc5cents
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To: VoiceOfBruck; Ronin

14 posted on 04/19/2010 6:58:30 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 452 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

I’ve heard good things about these, but too pricey for me.

I am a cheapskate when there is so much old Warsaw Pact stuff floating around.


15 posted on 04/19/2010 6:58:31 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (The bureaucrat is the natural enemy of liberty.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

Just “picture” the barrel length, then ask if you could hit someone 3 feet away with it.


16 posted on 04/19/2010 6:59:14 PM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag (http://www.thepatriotsflag.com - The Patriot's Flag)
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To: sonofstrangelove
It's not nice to tease.
17 posted on 04/19/2010 6:59:23 PM PDT by dangerdoc
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To: sonofstrangelove; Joe Brower; Travis McGee; Squantos; marktwain; M Kehoe; pocat; SLB; wardaddy; ...
I'm not sure about the Rock River version referred to in the article, as the architecture of the AR has been changed. Not saying it isn't a good piece, just haven't heard much about it's reliability, maintainability etc.

That said, absolutely LOVE the AR pistol concept. Beautiful looking, compact and 100% legal. Just have to be careful to have all of your ducks in a row if you build one to be sure you don't run afoul of the ATF. You also have to read up to ensure that the one you build actually works.

Sweet machines though if you do them right.


18 posted on 04/19/2010 7:00:28 PM PDT by AAABEST (Et lux in tenebris lucet: et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

“Just “picture” the barrel length, then ask if you could hit someone 3 feet away with it.”

It has a longer barrel than any pistol I own, I don’t think the kick would be worse than a 44 mag, but the flash could be interesting if shooting indoors or at night.


19 posted on 04/19/2010 7:02:30 PM PDT by dangerdoc
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To: sonofstrangelove

A bit expensive at $1,335.00, but I’ve waited long enough for an addition to my bob. At 5lbs this will fill the need. You never know when a bunch of zombies sneak up on you.


20 posted on 04/19/2010 7:05:16 PM PDT by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

mmmmmmm.........Rock River.........


21 posted on 04/19/2010 7:05:51 PM PDT by onona (dbada)
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To: Psalm 144

Put a Tech-Site rear sight on the rear receiver T-slot just forward of the butt-stock on your folding stock AK, you double the sight radius and you have a serious round that isn’t `spray & pray.’


22 posted on 04/19/2010 7:05:58 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's 57 militias: armed and dangerous)
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To: Psalm 144

I paid for my M1-A rifle $1300


23 posted on 04/19/2010 7:06:28 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: dangerdoc

The recoil is negligible, but the noise and concussion is substantial. I was on a range with about 20 ARs firing, most had 16” bbls one had a 10” bbl. You could pick out every shot the 10” fired among the noise of all the rest. A LeVang compensator helps direct the noise downrange, with the regular birdcage flash hider it’s bad.


24 posted on 04/19/2010 7:11:48 PM PDT by E.Allen
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To: sonofstrangelove

I paid for my M1-A rifle $1300

******

The Garand is a sweet weapon.


25 posted on 04/19/2010 7:13:14 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (The bureaucrat is the natural enemy of liberty.)
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To: ThePatriotsFlag
Just “picture” the barrel length, then ask if you could hit someone 3 feet away with it.

No offense, but you really need to buy a clue. A 4 inch pipe at 200 yards = SUPERB ballistics.

Here's the chart considering a 7 inch barrel:


26 posted on 04/19/2010 7:14:06 PM PDT by AAABEST (Et lux in tenebris lucet: et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt)
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To: sonofstrangelove; All

For up close work I got my Glock

For a little further away, I gotsa Mini-14

;-)


27 posted on 04/19/2010 7:14:33 PM PDT by Halgr (Once a Marine, always a Marine - Semper Fi)
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To: sonofstrangelove
Kel-Tec PLR


28 posted on 04/19/2010 7:15:19 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: Psalm 144

I like the Garand too


29 posted on 04/19/2010 7:16:33 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: umgud; papertyger

Yep, you can buy two Keltec PLR’s for the cost of one of those others. And do anything they’ll do.....twice.


30 posted on 04/19/2010 7:18:07 PM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: sonofstrangelove

That's my idea of an ultimate semiauto pistol i.e. the Wildey 475mag. Rifle type mechanism, and anything that gets shot with the thing is gonna KNOW it's been shot...

31 posted on 04/19/2010 7:18:39 PM PDT by wendy1946
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To: tumblindice

Thank you for that heads up, but I am at best an SKS kind of guy.

I am the only one I know who is an enthusiast for the Moisin-Nagant.

Durable and idiot proof are big pluses for me.


32 posted on 04/19/2010 7:21:04 PM PDT by Psalm 144 (The bureaucrat is the natural enemy of liberty.)
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To: sonofstrangelove
Is Obama going to issue one to each Head of Household like they do in Switzerland?
33 posted on 04/19/2010 7:26:21 PM PDT by Art in Idaho
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To: ThePatriotsFlag

3 feet and 30 rounds. More than likely.


34 posted on 04/19/2010 7:29:15 PM PDT by rawcatslyentist (And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, John 1:14)
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To: Psalm 144

I think if I had to choose between my AK and my SKS, which
is a former military carbine, I’d have to go with the SKS.


35 posted on 04/19/2010 7:29:17 PM PDT by tumblindice (America's 57 militias: armed and dangerous)
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To: Travis McGee

Full auto with this thing? You might get the first round on target. After that it’s an anti-aircraft piece.


36 posted on 04/19/2010 7:31:23 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

$1400 for a .223?? I think I’ll pass...


37 posted on 04/19/2010 7:31:32 PM PDT by Bean Counter (My name is Obammymandius, King of kings: look upon my works ye mighty, and despair...)
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To: Bean Counter

It is probably the best rifle I have ever owned. I have five 20 round box magazines.


38 posted on 04/19/2010 7:34:34 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: sonofstrangelove
Now THIS is a PDW.


39 posted on 04/19/2010 7:39:43 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: Bean Counter; Psalm 144

Springfield M1A is based upon the military M14 and is chambered in .308 caliber or 7.62 mm NATO. An even sweeter version of the M1A is the M25 Whitefeather tactital rifle, also by Springfield Armory. If you can get ahold of one, it’s about $4,000, about the same price as my over/under Beretta shotgun but a lot more fun!


40 posted on 04/19/2010 8:05:17 PM PDT by 12Gauge687 (Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice)
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To: umgud
That is exactly what I thought, too... the Kel Tec PLR-16:

18.5" long with 9.2" barrel, and a 3 pound weight (there are many 1911s and revolvers that weigh more). And costs about 1/3rd the price!

41 posted on 04/19/2010 8:07:47 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: Psalm 144; Bean Counter
I am a cheapskate when there is so much old Warsaw Pact stuff floating around.

$1400 for a .223?? I think I’ll pass...

Agreed on both counts.

42 posted on 04/19/2010 8:12:27 PM PDT by DTogo (High time to bring back the Sons of Liberty !!)
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To: Psalm 144

I’m kinda fond of the old SKS and Mosins too.

If you are not familiar with “Gunboards”, then go to:

http://www.gunboards.com/forums/

And check it out. Lots of good stuff on lots of military, antique & collectible guns as well as a good gunsmithing forum. I lurk there a lot.

I wish the SKS had a bolt hold open catch other than the mag follower - would make it easier to load with a clip I think.

Have a Yugo that I rigged a 30 rd. TAPCO duckbill to and it works pretty well. The sights leave some to be desired however.

I notice mention of the old 7.62 X 25mm / .30 Tokarev round for some of these super-pistols; that is, IMHO, one of the most under appreciated rounds going, and often overlooked because it’s so old. It goes back to the C-1896 Mauser “Broomhandle” pistol/carbine, only slightly modified by the Russians for the TT-33 Tokarev pistol which they abandoned during the Cold war for the 9X18mm Makarov because the .30 Tok was “too powerful”. Apparently the KGB and Russian Mafia (not sure how much difference there is) still fancy the TOK as a very effective close range killer that can defeat most soft body armor.

At around 1650FPS for an 85-90gr. bullet it gives around 550 ft.Lbs of ME and penetrates like an icepick.
I don’t know if there is much that this fancy 5.7 FN round can do that the old .30 TOK can’t do darn near as well if not better.

If you have an FFL (C&R included) you can score a Romanian or Polish Tokarev for around $200 these days, and corrosive milsurp ammo is still a relative bargain. Just flush it out after firing and it’s good.
Commercial ammo is also available for it.

The TOK is a lot of pistol for the bux. I’m not sure I’d carry it as my primary street piece (although I have) due to the funky aftermarket safety (they were not originally made with a safety at all). It would make a dandy woods gun though. People take feral hogs down with the X25 and I’m confident that it would penetrate a bear’s skull if you hit it square on. There are not many handguns that will penetrate a kevlar helmet, but tests have shown that a 7.62X25 will, out of a Czech CZ-52 pistol.


43 posted on 04/19/2010 8:12:37 PM PDT by George Varnum (Liberty, like our Forefather's Flintlock Musket, must be kept clean, oiled, and READY!)
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To: GeronL
An M-16 In Your Pocket

Nah, I'm just happy to see you!

44 posted on 04/19/2010 8:14:14 PM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

It’s amazingly accurate too. Not to mention, a blast to shoot.


45 posted on 04/19/2010 8:16:15 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: sonofstrangelove
You can get a Romanian AK Draco a lot cheaper - for $350.00


46 posted on 04/19/2010 8:36:43 PM PDT by smokingfrog (Free Men will always be armed with the Truth.)
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To: smokingfrog

That is very cool.


47 posted on 04/19/2010 8:42:54 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ("I have learned to use the word "impossible" with the greatest caution."-Dr.Wernher Von Braun)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier; umgud; All
That is exactly what I thought, too... the Kel Tec PLR-16:

Thanks very much for the link and the pic!

They have a downloadable video of the weapon being fired available at the Kel Tec site, and there are also quite a few videos of it being fired on YouTube

YouTube - PLR-16

Also:

Carbine-Pistol_Rigs

 

 


48 posted on 04/19/2010 9:00:05 PM PDT by Stoat (If you want a vision of the future, imagine a Birkenstock stamping on a human face... forever)
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To: sonofstrangelove

” but generally unnoticed, “

thanks to 922(o), prohibition on post-’86 machineguns. You need full auto to make the paltry PDW rounds add up to something effective.


49 posted on 04/19/2010 9:07:48 PM PDT by ctdonath2 (+)
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To: Psalm 144

I hear you, mate. I am currently in the market for a ‘carbine’ - type of firearm because I am getting preparing for an extended amount of time in the woods, and hereabouts there are a lot of bear and cougar wandering about so I need some sort of ready responce handy. Has to be a carbine-type since a longarm-type of weapon would simply get caught up in all the dense foliage, but pistols would not do I believe so recommendations for a good weapon (Please, nothing of 5.56 or lower) with good stopping power would be appreciated.

Bears just shrug off anything below .30 cal, in My experience, so something up there in calibre -but nowhere near the 1k tag as far as the firearm is concerned- is what I am looking for.


50 posted on 04/20/2010 1:39:52 AM PDT by Utilizer (What does not kill you... -can sometimes damage you QUITE severely.)
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