Skip to comments.The Man John Jay warned About
Posted on 04/27/2010 7:07:50 AM PDT by Menehune56
I cannot think of any other subject in recent American history that has been so mired in controversy, so factually misrepresented, mischaracterized and so misunderstood than the matter of the eligibility of Barack Hussein OBAMA II to hold the office of President of the United States. Despite its importance, the topic has been summarily dismissed as fodder for conspiracy theorists by many, while others insist that the question of OBAMAs citizenship has been asked and answered. But has it really been answered, and if not, why not?
(Excerpt) Read more at canadafreepress.com ...
A Certificate of Loss of Nationality (CLN) is issued to finalize an expatriates renouncement. Anyone can renounce their U.S. Citizenship.
Copies of the CLN are sent to the IRS, FBI, and USCIS. The IRS publishes the names in the Federal Register to announce the taxpayers CLN to State tax collection authorities.
Barry Soetoros CLN wasnt published because he did not have an SSN when he renounced to become an Indonesian National.
7 FAM 1241 INTRODUCTION TO
INTERAGENCY COORDINATION AND
a. The Bureau of Consular Affairs (CA) coordinates closely with various
offices in the Department of State and other Federal agencies, and with
U.S. States, on issues related to expatriation. Much of this interagency
coordination is mandated by Federal law and policy guidelines.
CA/OCS/PRI provides copies of approved Certificates of Loss of
Nationality (CLNs) to the following Federal agencies pursuant to statutory
(1) U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS);
(2) Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI);
(3) Internal Revenue Service (IRS)
I was thinking that a minor couldn’t renounce. (Previous threads.) It would have to be confirmed as an adult.
Obama needs to be tried for treason.
From the article:
Three years after that note was written, Congress affirmed in 1790 that a person born abroad whose parents are both citizens of the U.S. is, in fact, a U.S. citizen.
I didn’t know that *both* parents had to be citizens.
And whatever point you were trying to make is lost. Unless that was the rest of what you were trying to say and someone sang that song on yesterday's episode of American Idol.
That’s John JACOB....not John Jay :)
A lot of CFP columnists are Americans. They write for CFP for reasons that should be obvious.
I believe that to be true as well.
IMHO, his birth certificate is immaterial First, because it would have his adopted name of Barry Soetoro [not Barack Obama], and secondly because of his minor status.
That's why whether or not he received funding for college as a foreign national under his alias is so important, but that, too is under lock and key.
Sorry to play thread-cop, but why can’t FREEPERs not post the whole article (with the exception being the legal excerpt requirements)?
It’s like every friggin’ post is an excerpt.
FREEPERs are friggin’ lazy.
That is correct. But given Barry’s hatred for America & peculiar trips to Indonesia, it’s certainly not impossible to imagine.
A minor cannot lose his citizenship.
If born abroad, both parents need to be citizens. If born in the USA, that isn’t true.
From the US State Department pages, a minor can’t renounce unless he convinces a consular office that he “fully understands” the consequences. I can’t see a consular officer being convinced by a young child, or probably any minor under the age of 14 or 15, and even that would be dicey.
I’ve seen this posted in several threads - how do you reconcile this assertion with the stated policy of the United States?
And why would the lack of a SSN keep something of public record from being available?
The Nigerian Observer Americans will today go to the polls to elect their next President with Democratic Party candidate, Senator Barack Obama largely favoured to win. The Kenyan-born Senator will
USAfrica Kenyan-born OBAMA makes history wins presidential nomination of U. S. Democratic party; eyes on White House
AllAfrica.com Little wonder then why Kenyan-born Barack Obama, Americas first Black President
GraphicGhana.com For Ghana, Obamas visit will be a celebration of another milestone in African history as it hosts the first-ever African-American President on this
presidential visit to the continent of his birth. The same article, with the same quote, appeared in ModernGhana.com.
The Ghana Times So far, the odds favour the once underdog in American politics, Obama, the African-American Senator from Illinois state. A Congressional Quarterly
(CQ) politics monitored on BBC put the Kenyan born American ahead of his rivel, John McCain.
From the comment section:
(AmericanDaughter) NPR.org She also describes the stories that have been exciting, including the U.S. presidential race of Kenyan-born Sen. Barack Obama.
(AmericanDaughter) AllAfrica.com Kampala Ugandans have formed a group to mobilise support for Kenyan born-senator, Barack Obama for the US presidency. "
Kenyan Historian: It's Odd that Kenyan Luo Tribe Member (Obama) Elected President in US Before Kenya (Audio)
We already knew that Barack Obama's brother Malik was a Luo activist and a militant Muslim
who argued that the black man must "liberate himself from the poisoning influences of European culture."
Article in Nairobi Paper June 2004 - Barack born in Africa
An ongoing poll by AOL News currently shows that 58% of Americans have doubts
about Obamas citizenship. The poll was started on July 28 and continues you can go
here to vote. And lest you think that this survey is being conducted in a very anti-Obama
venue, the title of the article is Birthers, Beer and Stuck on Stupidly it is an
environment contemptuous of skeptics. So we can conclude that the results of their poll
are not what they were hoping for.
A scant five years ago, Barack Obama was a little known Illinois state politician, aspiring
to move up to the United States Senate. Undoubtedly, the Marxist handlers behind this
Manchurian candidate had long range plans to capture the US presidency since he was
groomed as a youth by Frank Marshall Davis. But the general public and the press were
not privy to this information.
At that time, there would have been no reason to fabricate a story about Obamas birth
that would disqualify him for the highest US office. This would be especially true for an
African paper that was simply proud of their native son. So it is reasonable to take the
press clippings of the day at face value. The following item has been on the web all
along, but apparently did not get much attention. It is a June 2004 article from the online
version of the East African Standard, an English-language paper published in Nairobi,
Kenya, titled Kenyan-born Obama all set for US Senate.
Br> US Presidential Polls:Obama, McCain slug it out today
WASHINGTON Americans will today go to the polls to elect their next President with
Democratic Party candidate, Senator Barack Obama largely favoured to win.
The Kenyan-born Senator will, however, face a stiff competition from his Republican
counterpart, John McCain who has taken the presidential battle to the finishing line with
vigorous campaign strategies.
Americans Decide Today - go Obama (this site hasn't been scrubbed yet)
So far, the odds favour the once underdog in American politics, Obama, the African-American Senator from Illinois State .
A Congressional Quarterly (CQ) politics monitored on BBC put the Kenyan born American ahead of his rival, Senator McCain.
D.C. Tech Official Is Accused of Bribery(Birth Certificate Forgery)
A D.C. government official and a business executive were arrested yesterday on bribery
charges involving city technology contracts that included "ghost" workers and
kickbacks, federal authorities said. Until recently, the technology office was headed
by Vivek Kundra, who has taken a job as President Obama's chief information officer.
A White House official confirmed last night that Kundra has taken a leave of absence.
Yusuf Acar, 40, who has worked in the technology office since 2004, was charged with
bribery, conspiracy, money laundering and conflict of interest.
Assistant U.S. Attorney Thomas Hibarger told a federal judge that Acar is a flight risk because agents
seized $70,000 in cash in his house and because in recorded conversations, he boasted that he could easily flee to his native Turkey.
Acar also told the informant that he could use
computers to create fake D.C. birth certificates, Hibarger said.
"Security Breach May Lead To Obama Natural Born Status
A series of 2008 security breaches at the US State Department may indicate that someone knows Barack Obamas true status as a natural born citizen - and is waiting for the right time to reveal it. The breaches, which occurred on January 9, February 21 and March 14 of 2008, were done by two low level contractors and another in a mid-level position with no management role.
... An investigation of the incidents revealed that all three major presidential candidates - Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, and John McCain - had their passport files compromised.
... News of the security breaches prompted a statement from then-Senator Joseph Biden, who had not yet been chosen as Obamas running mate. Biden, who was chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, had oversight of the Foreign Service and the passport office.
I am deeply troubled that State Department contract employees sought access to Sen. Barack Obamas passport files, the statement from Biden read. Firing or disciplining those responsible is an important first step. But we need to understand why these employees had access to this information in the first place, why they sought the information, and why it took over two months for this matter to come to light. I urge the Secretary of State to promptly refer this matter to the State Department Inspector General for investigation.
... On April 5, 2008, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Passport Services Ann Barrett resigned from her post after a credit card scheme using US passport date was uncovered by the security probe. State Department Spokesman Tom Casey told The Washington Times that 24-year-old Lieutenant Quarles Harris Jr. told federal authorities he obtained passport information from a co-conspirator who works for the U.S. Department of State.
From The Washington Times report:
The investigation began after Metropolitan Police on March 25 pulled over Mr. Harris in Southeast on suspicion that the windows of his vehicle were tinted too darkly.
After searching Mr. Harris and his vehicle, police found marijuana and 21 credit cards that were not issued in his name or the name of a female passenger with him. Police also found eight printouts of State Department passport applications, and four of the names on the applications matched four of the credit cards.
Upon questioning by agents from the U.S. Secret Service, U.S. Postal Service and State Department, Mr. Harris admitted he obtained the passport information from a State Department employee, court documents say.
Mr. Harris also said the fraud ring submitted credit-card applications using the names and identifying information of the persons listed on the passport applications, and that a postal service employee then would intercept the cards before they were delivered to the appropriate residences.
Then, on April 17, 2008, Lt. Harris was found fatally shot dead slumped over the steering wheel of his car in front of the Judah House Praise Baptist Church in Northeast DC."
Key Witness in Presidential Passport Tampering Case Murdered in 2008, No Arrests
On April 8, 2008, Obama confessed to having taken a trip to Pakistan in 1981. Here is what Obama said - Jake Tapper was there:
"So when I speak about having lived in Indonesia for four years, having family that is impoverished in small villages in Africa --knowing the leaders is not important -- what I know is the people...I traveled to Pakistan when I was in college -- I knew what Sunni and Shia was [sic] before I joined the Senate Foreign Relations Committee."
... Much speculation has been made about what national passport Obama used when he traveled to Pakistan in 1981.
So Obama confessed to this trip two weeks after his passport was tampered with.
.... A key witness in a federal probe into passport information stolen from the State Department was fatally shot in front of a District church, the Metropolitan Police Department said yesterday. Lt. Quarles Harris Jr., 24, who had been cooperating with a federal investigators, was found late Thursday night slumped dead inside a car, in front of the Judah House Praise Baptist Church in Northeast, said Cmdr. Michael Anzallo, head of the department's Criminal Investigations Division.
Cmdr. Anzallo said a police officer was patrolling the neighborhood when gunshots were heard, then Lt. Harris was found dead inside the vehicle, which investigators would describe only as a blue car."
"Mysterious Dead Person Connected To 2008 Elections
The Washington Times reported April 5 that contractors for the State Department had improperly accessed passport information
for presidential candidates Sens. Hillary Rodham Clinton, Barack Obama and John McCain, which resulted in a series of firings that reached into the agency's top ranks."
Clearing the Smoke on Obamas Eligibility: An Intelligence Investigators June 10 Report
"The Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii
In the State of Hawaii, back in 1961, there were four different ways to get an original birth certificate on record.
BC1. If the birth was attended by a physician or mid wife, the attending medical professional was required to certify to the Department of Health the facts of the birth date, location, parents identities and other information. (See Section 57-8 & 9 of the Territorial Public Health Statistics Act in the 1955 Revised Laws of Hawaii which was in effect in 1961).
governor, or his secretary, or such other person as he may designate or appoint from his office §338-41 [in 1961]).
In 1982, the vital records law was amended to create a fifth kind of original birth certificate. Under Act 182 H.B. NO. 3016-82, Upon application of an adult or the legal parents of a minor child, the director of health shall issue a birth certificate for such adult or minor, provided that the proof has been submitted to the director of health that the legal parents of such individual while living without the Territory or State of Hawaii had declared the Territory or State of Hawaii as their legal residence for at least one year immediately preceding the birth or adoption of such child.
In this way state policies and procedures accommodate even children born out of State (this is the actual language of Act 182) with an original birth certificate on record.
“This is not to say that the publication of the COLB document is unimportant. In fact, quite the opposite is true if the matter of legal eligibility is ever properly and thoroughly investigated by a legitimate court of inquiry within the United States. As agents, representatives or the assigns of Barack Hussein OBAMA have publicly asserted that the question of eligibility has been officially answered by the publication of the COLB as listed on officially sanctioned web sites, and it is ultimately proven that the document is deliberately deceptive by any means, an inquiry into violations of the United States Crimes Code, 18 USC Section 1028 encompassing fraud and other related activity involving identification documents might apply.”
Thank you for the clarification.
“Since the initial COLB was first published in June 2008, there have been at least two additional incarnations of the document, each containing revisions that bear additional information allegedly supporting its authenticity. Accordingly, the Certificate of Live Birth is consistently cited by individuals, the media and others to prove the constitutional eligibility of Barack Hussein OBAMA. Nonetheless, even an authenticated and genuine Certificate of Live Birth is legally insufficient for the purpose of proving eligibility, as it merely represents that OBAMAs birth record is on file in the state of Hawaii. It falls short of providing the information necessary to determine constitutional eligibility in at least two areas: it does not offer any information regarding who supplied the information, nor does it confirm the authenticity of the information provided. Again, it merely indicates that the information is on file.
Really great article.
Actually, the above is just exactly backwards. When Obama was born, the US code said that if the mother was NOT 18, she could not confer citizenship based on her birth status. That was later changed.
“Obama needs to be tried for treason.”
I would settle for a SCOTUS ruling that he is not constitutionally qualified followed by a successful impeachment and trial in Senate. If the SCOTUS rules he is eligible, then I will accept that....but they need to make a definitive ruling.
The persons that knowingly allowed him to take office contrary to the Constitution, IF the SCOTUS so rules, are the ones that should be tried for treason.
You're not buyin it huh? And now for an important public service announcement in regards to my mistake....
"I'm Troy McClure. You may remember me from such films as "Lead Paint: Delicious but Deadly," and "Buck Henderson, Union Buster." Today I'm here to talk to you about posting on Free Republic. The above referenced post is an artist's depiction of similar events. The names have been changed to protect the innocent."
An investigative report detailing the Obama eligibility controversy
Well researched and well argued. Thanks for posting.
An investigative report detailing the Obama eligibility controversy
To be more exact, the image purports to be a "Certification of Live Birth".
Also two things to note: (1) the image also clearly says that any modification renders it invalid, and the image is clearly modified on the "fightthesmears" website since the certification number has been redacted and (2) the race of the father is listed as "African", a thoroughly dubious term to find on any birth certification from 1961.
The Kenyan Clown should release all of his vital records, all of his passports past and present, and also show his visa or citizenship status for his long sojourn as a foreign-born child living in Indonesia.
“In particular, it is not only the absence of authenticated evidence regarding OBAMAs citizenship status at birth that cause rational people to question his eligibility status under Article II, Section I of the United States Constitution, but the manner in which OBAMA and those in positions of government oversight have responded to legitimate inquiries. It is also how some members of the media have chosen to report on this issue, misreport or otherwise distort the issue, or not report on it at all.
Whatever arguments are used to understate or even mock the importance of this matter, it cannot be denied that the rule of law is being ignored and as a result, the Constitution of the United States is being trampled.”
This article should be sent to Rush, Coulter, Malkin, Levin, Beck, O’Reilly etc. They have been a disgrace regarding this issue.
The foreign press - - doing the job the American press won’t do.
Yeah....I just hate having to direct my mouse to a link and click the button.
once you renounce it can you get it back? would you have a green card or be counted as an immigrant, or how does that work??
I would settle for a SCOTUS ruling that he is not but they need to make a definitive ruling.
One of the roadblocks set up by those who wish to circumvent the Constitution is that this is a very difficult issue that will require years to resolve; the best we can do is to prevent it from happening in the future.
Meanwhile, of course, the “remaking” and “transformation” continues.
In the first instance, USSC involvement is unnecessary. A 2011 Congressional committee with subpoena power could examine the original birth documents now held by Hawaii and determine the threshold element of eligibility: whether O was born in the USA.
If it is determined O was born in the US only then might it be necessary for the USSC to again determine whether the two-parent element recognized by earlier court rulings and historical writings was indeed required by the founders to be a part of NBC.
The persons that knowingly allowed him to take office contrary to the Constitution...are the ones that should be tried for treason.
Unfortunately, for our nation, that would include the members of the 2009 Congress, each of whom had a sworn duty to defend the Constitution.
Each member had an obligation at the 2009 Joint Session of Congress which was called for the sole purpose of certifying the work of the Electoral College to challenge any irregularity in that work (3 USC 15).
Each member knew prior to 2009 that a) Os father was not a US citizen, b) there wasa substantial amount of public information that O was born elsewhere; and c) most of the members were aware of the controversy over the sloppy fabrication of the June 2008 COLB.
Any person, including a minor, can renounce their US citizenship when expatriate themselves.
7 FAM EXHIBIT 1292
A SAMPLE LETTER TO ACCOMPANY CLN FOR MINOR RENUNCIANTS
Post Letterhead Date
Every U.S. Citizen has the right to renounce voluntarily and intentionally his or her citizenship, as you have done. Because this is a very serious decision with consequences that may not have been apparent to you at the time, the law gives persons like yourself who renounced under the age of 18 an opportunity to reevaluate your decision when you reach the age of 18.
Section 351(b) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S. Code 1483) allows you to reclaim your U.S. citizenship within 6 months ...
The rest of the sample letter can reviewed on the internet after a simple search.
Barry Soetoro recieved such a letter and would not have been allowed to become an Indonesian National if he had not received his CLN from the US.
The courts have made this declaration, and the law was modified in 1986 in accordance, however the law in place at the time Obama was in Indonesia did not specifically prevent a minor from renouncing his own citizenship.
From Immigration and Nationality Act of 1952: "A person who is a national of the United States whether by birth or naturalization, shall lose his nationality by voluntarily performing any of the following acts with the intention of relinquishing United States nationality -
"(1)obtaining naturalization in a foreign state upon his own application, upon an application filed in his behalf by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, or through the naturalization of a parent having legal custody of such person: Provided, That nationality shall not be lost by any person under this section as the result of the naturalization of a parent or parents while such person is under the age of twenty-one years, or as the result of a naturalization obtained on behalf of a person under twenty-one years of age by a parent, guardian, or duly authorized agent, unless such person shall fail to enter the United States to establish a permanent residence prior to his twenty-fifth birthday: And provided further That a person who shall have lost nationality prior to January 1, 1948, through the naturalization in a foreign state of a parent or parents, may, within one year from the effective date of this Act, apply for a visa and for admission to the United States as a nonquota immigrant under the provisions of section 101 (a) (27)(E); or
"(2) taking an oath or making an affirmation or other formal declaration of allegiance to a foreign state or a political subdivision thereof;"
This was amended in 1986 to say: "or upon an application filed by a duly authorized agent, after having attained the age of eighteen years" in part 1 and "after having attained the age of eighteen years" in part 2. So, when Obama would have been in Indonesia, U.S. law didn't not specifically prevent him from renouncing his citizenship, and it only prevented his loss of citizenship if his parents naturalized. Keep in mind, that Lolo Soetoro did not need to naturalize and in Indonesia, citizenship by adoption is considered the same as citizenship at birth (not naturalization). At a state department site on intercountry adoption it notes for outgoing adoptions to Hague convention countries, that children retain their U.S. citizenship. Indonesia is not one of the countries (and did not recognize dual citizenship), so there's a question as to whether U.S. citizenship is retained.
"A child being adopted from the United States to another Convention country retains his/her U.S. citizenship. He or she may also acquire the citizenship of the prospective adoptive parents depending on the citizenship status of the parents and the laws of the other Convention country.
The Foreign Affairs Manual has some great information in it.
Check out this link for information on a minor renouncing his citizenship ...
Be sure and look at page 10, 7 FAM EXHIBIT 1292, A SAMPLE LETTER TO ACCOMPANY CLN FOR MINOR RENUNCIANTS
You assume he formally renounced his US citizenship (before the age of 10!). Not very likely, is it?
Nor have you proof he became an Indonesian citizen. Nor would the Supreme Court uphold the idea that a child 10 years or less could effectively renounce his citizenship in the USA.
Further, you have no proof he returned to the US at the age of 10 as an Indonesian with an Indonesian passport. Even if he had, by living in the US from age 10 on, he would have reclaimed his US citizenship - see the case in the thread I posted to you...
Indonesia is non-Hague Convention country.
Indonesia was ruled as a dictatorship when Barry was living there. He absolutely would not have been allowed to become an Indonesian National if he had not renounced his US citizenship first.
He could have recovered his US citizenship at any time before he reached the age of 18 years and 6 months, but he would not have been able to attend college as a foreign national if he had done that.
The law in 1961 was such that if the mother had spent 5 yeras in the US after the age of 14, US citizenship would be automatic upon a child born out of the country if she was married to a foreigner.
She would have had to be 19 for him to automatically become a US citizen, if born in Kenya.
And that would have been a citizen, not a Natural Born Citizen.
The proof is in his Indonesian school record where is identified as an Indonesian national.
Additional evidence is derived from the fact that as an Indonesian refugee, Barry had a sponsor control his legal paperwork. Thus, the reason he has a Connecticut return address on his SSN application. Legal Aliens can apply for a SSN card.
Barry would have had his US passport canceled when he renounced his citizenship, so he returned to the US as an Indonesian refugee.
You, and no one else, has any proof he didn’t.
Plus, just because proof is not offered on this thread, doesn’t mean someone somewhere doens’t have proof.
0bama’s team probably was not able to scrub all evidence when they messed around in the passport office, whatever it’s called. State department. And of course one of the breakers-in was shot to death the day before he was to testify.
So the 0-team is taking the removal or scrubbing or hiding of evidence of his passport/s quite seriously.
What’s interesting is the myth about how old Obama was when he would have become Barry Soetoro. The ‘official’ story is that SAD married Lolo in 1967, when Obama would have been 6 years old and too old to become an automatic Indonesian citizen by adoption. But, if you look around, some stories say earlier, such as in 1965, when Obama would have been 3 or 4 and definitely young enough for Indonesian citizenship by Indonesian law. IOW, it looks like the official story was changed to suggest this couldn’t have happened.
Yes, that’s it. I couldn’t remember what it was. It was something funky like you just mentioned. In other words, she was not 19 and her husband was not a citizen. So that is why the question remains if he was born outside the country or not. Hence the Hawaii birth certificate issue.