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FBI agent short on details on militia inquiry
Toledo Blade ^ | April 28, 2010 | AP

Posted on 04/28/2010 6:09:15 AM PDT by FreedomPoster

DETROIT - An FBI agent who led the investigation of nine Michigan militia members charged with trying to launch war against the federal government couldn't recall many details of the two-year probe yesterday during questioning by defense lawyers.

Even the judge who must decide whether to release the nine until trial was puzzled.

"I share the frustrations of the defense team … that she doesn't know anything," U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts said after agent Leslie Larsen confessed she hadn't reviewed her notes recently and couldn't remember specific details of the case.

(Excerpt) Read more at toledoblade.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Politics/Elections; US: Michigan
KEYWORDS: atf; banglist; batfags; cw2; cwii; ftroop; hutaree; michigan; teapartysmearattempt; trt; waco; waco2
They got their headline.
1 posted on 04/28/2010 6:09:15 AM PDT by FreedomPoster
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To: FreedomPoster

That is all they were interested in.

Like TEA Party=violence/racist, with no facts whatsoever.


2 posted on 04/28/2010 6:13:06 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com << Get your science fiction and fiction test marketed)
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To: FreedomPoster

I guess not divulging the evidence in court is transparency


3 posted on 04/28/2010 6:13:34 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com << Get your science fiction and fiction test marketed)
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To: FreedomPoster

Once again the FBI is used as a political tool


4 posted on 04/28/2010 6:13:39 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver
Once again the FBI is used as a political tool

Tell me if their budget is increased and I'll tell you who is using whom.

5 posted on 04/28/2010 6:15:39 AM PDT by abb ("What ISN'T in the news is often more important than what IS." Ed Biersmith, 1942 -)
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To: FreedomPoster

Ask Bill Clinton!


6 posted on 04/28/2010 6:15:52 AM PDT by Dr. Ursus
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To: FreedomPoster
This statement is confusing to me.

"But the judge said the agent's appearance was appropriate because the burden is on defense lawyers to show their clients won't be a threat to the public if released."

I thought it was up to the prosecution to prove they were dangerous not the other way around.

7 posted on 04/28/2010 6:18:37 AM PDT by Dutch Boy
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To: FreedomPoster

Boy is this case thin, for a SWAT team action. Good Grief.


8 posted on 04/28/2010 6:18:59 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: GeronL

ya...i just bet there was a 2 yr investigation..how about staged


9 posted on 04/28/2010 6:21:02 AM PDT by dalebert
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To: FreedomPoster
Our entire system collapses under the weight of the immoral .. "I can't remember, I don't recall"

As I recall .. I think it was Franklin who said .. (something like), "Our Republic is designed for a truthful and moral people"


Since I've REALLY started paying attention (around 1997/8 .. ), I have been amazed at the lack of response from people that could simply and quickly right a wrong .. ie, Secret service .. CIA .. etc.

I mean ... SOMEone could have told Janet Reno to pound sand .. or even arrested her.

10 posted on 04/28/2010 6:21:04 AM PDT by knarf (I say things that are true ... I have no proof ... but they're true)
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To: FreedomPoster

I knew this was a Ruse when I first read about it, would a class action lawsuit against the FBI and whoever else helped be out of the question?


11 posted on 04/28/2010 6:22:51 AM PDT by Hillbillary (I know how to deal with Communists, I still wear their scars on my back from Hollywood-Ronald Reagan)
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To: Marty62

“Boy is this case thin, for a SWAT team action. Good Grief.”

And for such a widespread operation to arrest so few...


12 posted on 04/28/2010 6:26:32 AM PDT by smalltownslick
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To: Dutch Boy

Whatever happened to that whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing? Guess that doesn’t apply in obama’s Amerika.


13 posted on 04/28/2010 6:30:18 AM PDT by ThunderSleeps (obama out now! I'll keep my money, my guns, and my freedom - you can keep the change.)
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To: knarf

Christian terrorists? Yeah right, I’ll believe that as readily as “moral democrats”.


14 posted on 04/28/2010 6:30:48 AM PDT by Tail Gunner John
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To: Travis McGee; Jack Black; Squantos

Ping.


15 posted on 04/28/2010 6:30:55 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (No Representation without Taxation!)
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To: FreedomPoster
FTA:

She [the lead FBI agent] said that because they were still being examined, she didn't know if weapons seized by investigators last month were illegal.

OMG, how dumb. It only takes a quick look at the receiver to see if a weapon is capable of full auto fire. For barrel length, it just takes a tape measure. This monstrosity is turning into a modern vesion of a typical Janet Reno mass satanic child sex abuse case, where there was no abuse at all.

16 posted on 04/28/2010 6:37:31 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: Marty62
-- Boy is this case thin, for a SWAT team action. Good Grief. --

I don't think the SWAT team apprehension was inappropriate, per se. Good on the part of the law to avoid a barricaded-in situation.

But I still have a major problem with the government action. The charge that justified the raid in the first place is sedition, making war against the United States. The charge is based on an alleged plot to kill local law enforcement. The issue I have is based on the simple fact that getting over on local law enforcement is emphatically NOT waging war against the United States.

Not that I'm defending plans to get over on local law enforcement by way of deadly force, etc. - that sort of attitude is a problem, not uncommon among criminal gangs, etc. And even against federal agents, for example in the international narco-trade, or moonshining - none of those are elevated to the level of "waging war against the United States."

And that headline is the one sought. That "right wing militias aim to topple the US government by use of force."

17 posted on 04/28/2010 6:38:19 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: FreedomPoster
"She said that because they were still being examined, she didn't know if weapons seized by investigators last month were illegal. "

Failure to do those simple steps = incompetence or obstruction.

18 posted on 04/28/2010 6:41:51 AM PDT by TXnMA ("Allah": Satan's current alias...)
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To: FreedomPoster
Prosecutors fought to keep Ms. Larsen off the witness stand, saying the defendants had no legal right to question her. The nine lawyers asked specific questions about each defendant. Ms. Larsen said she had not listened entirely to certain recordings made by an undercover agent who infiltrated the group. She said that because they were still being examined, she didn't know if weapons seized by investigators last month were illegal. At other times, Ms. Larsen couldn't answer questions because she said she hadn't reviewed investigative reports.

Federal law enforcement appears to be as decrepit and incompetent as government in general.

19 posted on 04/28/2010 6:42:43 AM PDT by throwback ( The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid)
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To: TXnMA

Yes, those are the two obvious things to check. If neither was mentioned as a violation, that means one of two things: the BATFE hasn’t yet succeeded in their usual efforts to cause a slam-fire - or they’re planning on using some other “gotcha” such as 922r parts count compliance.


20 posted on 04/28/2010 6:59:14 AM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: Charles Martel
Also, now that they have the weapons in their custody their is no end to the hijinks the FBI can pursue, like trading out certain key parts to cause a slamfire. How will the defendants say "hey, that is not the firing pin that I originally installed in that weapon"?

All firing pins from for the same model gun look the same to my eyes.

21 posted on 04/28/2010 7:34:51 AM PDT by I Buried My Guns (Novare Res!)
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To: libstripper

“OMG, how dumb. It only takes a quick look at the receiver to see if a weapon is capable of full auto fire. For barrel length, it just takes a tape measure.”

Hmmmn... I’m not sure if I should get into this because my mind is still being made up about the organization that I am about to reference. However, Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (JPFO), have asserted in many of their podcasts that the ATF’s protocols for inspecting firearms are undocumented and politically motivated. As one example, the ATF has repeatedly “proven” that common semi-automatic AR-15s are “assault weapons” capable of fully automatic fire. They do this by “inspecting/test firing” the weapon using ammunition with soft primers. This is known to make the AR-15 fire automatically as the firing pin coincidentally hits the primer on each newly chambered round. As with many semi-automatic firearms, this minor primer hit by the firearms is normal and should not ignite the primer. Using soft primers is also dangerous to the operator, dangerous to bystanders, illegal (only in this case because it causes full-auto fire) and tactically stupid so don’t even try it.

I believe there has been some attempt in congress to force the ATF to publish and follow their protocols during testing but I have no idea where that is. If you own an AR-15 and the ATF decides to send you to prison, make sure you don’t drop the soap.


22 posted on 04/28/2010 7:51:58 AM PDT by Brouhaha
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To: Cboldt

‘The charge that justified the raid in the first place is sedition, making war against the United States. The charge is based on an alleged plot to kill local law enforcement. The issue I have is based on the simple fact that getting over on local law enforcement is emphatically NOT waging war against the United States.”

.................
According to this piece the Agent can’t even remember the facts of the case AND didn’t even listen to all the tapes.
Seems a case of profiling was in effect. If I had heard such threats being made I would REMEMBER THAT.
You are assuming the headline is factual. We shall see. The Judge seems to be suspecious.


23 posted on 04/28/2010 10:13:34 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: Marty62
-- Seems a case of profiling was in effect. If I had heard such threats being made I would REMEMBER THAT. --

My take comes from reading the indictment. The facts stated in the indictment, even if they are true, don't seem to support the charge. And then, as you point out, the actual contents of the tape may be "watered down" from what the indictment claims.

24 posted on 04/28/2010 10:25:53 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: FreedomPoster
I guess these poor people are lucky Holder didn't yell, "FANATICS!!!!" and send in the tanks.

Its going to become obvious that the only threatening words were those spoken by the FBI undercover agent. Bet ya.

25 posted on 04/28/2010 10:30:44 AM PDT by Deb (Beat him, strip him and bring him to my tent!)
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To: Cboldt

I agree with your assesment. Also the reference to Swat action was a metaphor for calling camera crews to a RAID is well distasteful to say the least. Does not help the credibility of the Supervising agent.


26 posted on 04/28/2010 10:32:01 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: FreedomPoster; Black Agnes
"They got their headline."

Exactly.

27 posted on 04/28/2010 10:35:52 AM PDT by Travis McGee (---www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com---)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

Ohio Ping


28 posted on 04/28/2010 10:44:51 AM PDT by Whenifhow
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To: Brouhaha
It takes more than just soft primers. I use "soft" primers while reloading as one of my AR's only has a 4lbs hammer spring. Never gone full auto in any of my other AR's using the same ammo.

Now... If you have a whole bunch of other factors as well, you can end up with a condition called "hammer follow". It's a malfunction that will allow more than one shot, but it will also destroy your trigger group in the process as it puts a lot of stress on the sear catch where the selector cam rides. For the record, I've never tried to induce this condition in any of my rifles as they are worth more to me in a fully functional and safe condition.

This is what got that po'bucker in Wisconsin sent up the river last year. He loaned it to a buddy who took it to a range that just happened to have a Feebie at it. Buddy malf'ed the rifle, and the rest is history.

The Feebies have a long and notorious history of fudging their "test" results. Even Randy Weaver's debacle may have started because of Feebie tampering. Randy insists to this day that the shotgun he cut down was cut to 18" legal minimum. What got him was the Length over all by a half-inch. Someone had sawn off part of the stock. Before or after he cut the barrel is unknown.

If you bet on the F-troop lying to make a case, you won't go broke any time soon.

29 posted on 04/28/2010 10:52:07 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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To: cripplecreek

militia bump. I know you were on this.


30 posted on 04/28/2010 11:38:26 AM PDT by the crow (If I don't have a right to play defense, then I'll go on offense. - Enterprise)
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To: FreedomPoster
They surely did get their headline.

Man these people are corrupt.

Most likely, there was some bar room tough talk to impress someone, then the black clads grabbed hold and pumped it up into seditious conspiracy.

31 posted on 04/28/2010 11:40:38 AM PDT by servantboy777
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To: Dutch Boy

The seriousness of the charge means you are guilty until proven innocent today regarding DWI, Olympic Park bombings, American Anthrax mailings, and lacrosse team rapes.


32 posted on 04/28/2010 11:47:47 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (The hysteria of Matthewsism and Andersonism has led to a Tea Party Scare that is unAmerican.)
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To: FreedomPoster

Exactly. All they wanted was the headline. So far absolutely no proof has been given that these people were anything but a bunch of somewhat inbred survivalists; they may have had a wacky ideology, but they don’t seem to have been planning anything violent.

It strains credulity that the FBI agent didn’t bother to review her notes even though she knew that she was going to be called upon by the court. But what could she say? Clearly there was nothing in them that justified the charges.

Curiously absent, also, is the Muslim individual who claimed to be a member of the Michigan militia and was the one who called the Feds on this Huttaree group (which was not affiliated with but was known to the Michigan militia).


33 posted on 04/28/2010 12:03:30 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius

We have a mosque in Virginia with some real graduates who have killed thousand of innocent people and military personnel at Ft Hood. . We have illegal alien gangs (M13) who commit murder and heinous crimes all over the USA. We have liberal throwing bottles at police in Phoenix and the FBI is hassling White Christian guys who shoot guns at rabbits on s Saturday. This stinks.


34 posted on 04/28/2010 1:12:33 PM PDT by rogertarp
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To: FreedomPoster

/


35 posted on 04/28/2010 2:27:58 PM PDT by happinesswithoutpeace (1.416785(71) x 10^32)
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To: Whenifhow; ADemocratNoMore; Akron Al; arbee4bush; agrace; ATOMIC_PUNK; AdvisorB; Badeye; ...

Toledo Blade pings..


36 posted on 04/28/2010 3:23:54 PM PDT by Las Vegas Dave (To anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a Liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: grellis; AdmSmith; Berosus; bigheadfred; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; Ernest_at_the_Beach; ...
An FBI agent who led the investigation of nine Michigan militia members charged with trying to launch war against the federal government couldn't recall many details of the two-year probe yesterday during questioning by defense lawyers. Even the judge who must decide whether to release the nine until trial was puzzled. "I share the frustrations of the defense team … that she doesn't know anything," U.S. District Judge Victoria Roberts said after agent Leslie Larsen confessed she hadn't reviewed her notes recently and couldn't remember specific details of the case.
Thanks FreedomPoster.
37 posted on 04/28/2010 3:59:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: Whenifhow

Thanks Dave! I read this this morning, and was flabbergasted! Sent it to several of my friends.


38 posted on 04/28/2010 4:27:42 PM PDT by Dr. Bogus Pachysandra ( Ya can't pick up a turd by the clean end!)
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To: Springman; sergeantdave; cyclotic; netmilsmom; RatsDawg; PGalt; FreedomHammer; queenkathy; ...

If you would like to be added or dropped from the Michigan ping list, please freepmail me.


39 posted on 04/28/2010 5:34:11 PM PDT by grellis (I am Jill's overwhelming sense of disgust.)
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To: Las Vegas Dave

No surprise.


40 posted on 04/29/2010 7:15:55 AM PDT by Badeye (I can see NOVEMBER from My HOUSE.)
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To: Cboldt

Some more on the tape content may be found at freep.com at the URL I indicate below. The conversation does sound like folks just talkin’ ~ not an organized plan of action ~ and is remarkably like discussions here over the years about the way Eric Rudolph did “twofers” ~ first do a little blow up, or shooting, attract one or more cops, and then do a big blow up, or shooting. He got away with that technique repeatedly. I suppose it does work on some police agencies ~ FBI appears to be among those who act as though they are amazed someone could think up such a thing. http://www.freep.com/article/20100429/NEWS06/100429035/1320/Judge-Prove-Hutaree-planned-attack


41 posted on 04/29/2010 5:27:52 PM PDT by muawiyah ("Git Out The Way")
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To: Dutch Boy

I was going to mention that but you beat me to it, innocent until proven guilty and all that. The defense simply has to establish reasonable doubt. I don’t understand how it is incumbent upon them in any way to “prove” that their clients won’t be a threat if released. And the agent in charge doesn’t even know if the seized weapons are illegal are not? I’ll tell you what that means, they weren’t illegal and I called that back in march right here at FR when this started. They got NUTHIN!


42 posted on 04/30/2010 6:32:55 PM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: Dead Corpse

most any semi-auto can fire full auto if you utilize the bump fire technique. You allow the recoil of the weapon to “bump” the trigger repeatedly inducinga high rate of fire. There’s tons of videos on Youtube show how it is done. It’s bad ass but pointless IMO, real rifleman fire semi-auto.


43 posted on 04/30/2010 6:37:55 PM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: RC one
Yep. I've done that.

Although, I'm fairly certain that BATFE regs state that the belt-loop would become a part of an "unregistered" machine gun while doing so.

I sh*t you not. They once ruled that a shoestring wrapped around the grip of an M1 would be a "conversion device" producing a machine gun.

"Real" riflemen know that suppressive fire has it's place, but "one shot, one kill" is still a mantra that works wonders.

44 posted on 04/30/2010 8:52:25 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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