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Obama Confirmed Ineligible for Office?
Canada Free Press ^ | 29 April 2010 | JB Williams

Posted on 04/29/2010 11:38:41 AM PDT by K-oneTexas

Were ANY of the Founding Fathers “natural born citizens” of the United States?

No… they were not. Not even one of the Founding Fathers was a “natural born citizen” of the United States of America, even though some of them had indeed been (native) born on what would become U.S. soil.

None of them were “natural born citizens” because all of the Founding Fathers were born prior to the existence of the United States of America. No one could be the “natural born citizen” of a nation that did not yet exist.

America declared its independent status as a sovereign nation on July 4, 1776, breaking away from England and British rule. But the United States of America was not formed until September of 1787, with the ratification of the U.S. Constitution. The Founders had no choice but to exempt themselves from Article II—Section I—Clause V of the Constitution they wrote and ratified. But there would be no other exemptions or exceptions from that moment forward.

American citizens had better wake up and take action fast, as there is little time left to right their ship!

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: birthcertificate; certifigate; naturalborncitizen; obama
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To: RoadTest

Yes, and I’ll raise with:

ILLEGITIMUS NON CARBORUNDUM - “Don’t let the bastards grind you down.”

21 posted on 04/29/2010 2:23:18 PM PDT by K-oneTexas (I'm not a judge and there ain't enough of me to be a jury. (Zell Miller, A National Party No More))
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To: meadsjn

That was a known and never in contention. Was trying to concentrate and define ‘natural born citizen’. When reading the post that started and the initial comment that started this string.

But thanks for adding it more details already known.

22 posted on 04/29/2010 2:26:32 PM PDT by K-oneTexas (I'm not a judge and there ain't enough of me to be a jury. (Zell Miller, A National Party No More))
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To: K-oneTexas
No man-made laws are needed. In every civilized nation on earth, the “natural born child” automatically inherits their father’s name and all other related birthrights upon birth, with no statute required.

Actually, man-made laws are needed if you're going to claim someone is Constitutionally ineligible. Good luck finding any court in this civilized nation that will agree that things like name and citizenship can only be patrimonial.

23 posted on 04/29/2010 2:50:42 PM PDT by Kleon
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To: Twotone; K-oneTexas; All
"After watching Glenn Beck last night I’m almost positive that the only way we’ll be able to undo the damage is by impeaching Obama as ineligible. But no one is going to pay attention to the information in this article."

Completely agree. By far the best way to UNDO the damage done by Barry....ALL of it, and not just the health care debacle, is to expose him (in the mainstream) as the usurper he is.

"On some long ago FReeper thread on the topic, I vaguely remember someone saying a specific Supreme Court ruling spelled out what Natural Born Citizen means. But I’ve never seen it mentioned again. That’s something that would be useful!"

The definition came directly from Vattel. Someone the founders were well acquainted with an relied upon for more than the NBC term. NBC = born in country, to citizen parentS.

That same definition was reaffirmed by:

Founder and Historian David Ramsay in 1789.

Many early SCOTUS cases:
"THE VENUS, 12 U.S. (8 Cranch) 253, 289 (1814) (Marshall, C.J. concurring) (cites Vattel’s definition of Natural Born Citizen)
SHANKS V. DUPONT, 28 U.S. 242, 245 (1830) (same definition without citing Vattel)
MINOR V. HAPPERSETT, 88 U.S.162,167-168 ( 1875) (same definition without citing Vattel)
EX PARTE REYNOLDS, 1879, 5 Dill., 394, 402 (same definition and cites Vattel)
UNITED STATES V WARD, 42 F.320 (C.C.S.D. Cal. 1890) (same definition and cites Vattel.)"

The New Englander And Yale Law Review, Volume 3 (1845)

And John Bingham, "father" of the 14th Amendment, the abolitionist congressman from Ohio who prosecuted Lincoln's assassins, REAFFIRMED the definition known to the framers by saying this:

commenting on Section 1992 said it means “every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen.” (Cong. Globe, 39th, 1st Sess., 1291 (1866))"

24 posted on 04/29/2010 2:55:06 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: K-oneTexas; All
How can a USURPER command our armed forces?
How can a USURPER sign any treaties with foreign governments?
How can a USURPER sign anything into law, let alone the health care monstrosity?


“When Barack Obama Jr. was born on Aug. 4,1961, in Honolulu, Kenya was a British colony, still part of the United Kingdom’s dwindling empire. As a Kenyan native, Barack Obama Sr. was a British subject whose citizenship status was governed by The British Nationality Act of 1948. That same act governed the status of Obama Sr.‘s children. goes on to say this about Obama Sr., Jr. and the British Nationality Act of 1948:

In other words, at the time of his birth, Barack Obama Jr. was both a U.S. citizen (by virtue of being born in Hawaii) and a citizen of the United Kingdom and Colonies (or the UKC) by virtue of being born to a father who was a citizen of the UKC.


Even the modern day State Department rules discusses the problems associated with dual citizenship:

7 FAM 081: U.S. Policy on Dual Nationality:

(e)While recognizing the existence of dual nationality, the U.S. Government does not encourage it as a matter of policy because of the problems it may cause. Dual nationality may hamper efforts by the U.S. Government to provide diplomatic and consular protection to individuals overseas. When a U.S. citizen is in the other country of their dual nationality, that country has a predominant claim on the person.


the U.S. Supreme Court has stated that dual nationality is a "status long recognized in the law" and that "a person may have and exercise rights of nationality in two countries and be subject to the responsibilities of both." See Kawakita v. United States, 343 U.S. 717 (1952).

It can't. Of course not. Yet, right there, on his campaign web site F.T.S., it's stated that a foreign government "governed" Barry from birth and the reason it did, was that Barry inherited that foreign citizenship by way of his foreign national father (no matter where he was born), a fact backed up by Assuming, of course, that Sr. was his legal father at birth.
How, then, could he possibly be a "Natural Born Citizen" of the U.S.?
Barry Soetoro, the divided citizen at birth!

Barack Obama a/k/a Barry Soetoro * NOT Obama / Soetoro
* This assumes HI birth.
A citizen of 2 countries at birth.

Furthermore:  Hawaii's Territorial Law, Chapter 57 - "VITAL STATISTICS, I", shown beginning pg 23 of 29, (the law in effect in 1961) allowed the parents (or grandparents or other relative) of baby's born anywhere in the world to be eligible to apply for a Hawaiian birth certificate. A mailed-in form (without mention of a hospital, doctor, or midwife) signed by one of his grandparents (who forged the parent signature(s)) would have been enough to set up a birth record and a birth certificate at the Dept of Health. The Dept of Health would (presumably) then have automatically sent the names of the parents, their address as given on the mailed-in form , the gender of the child, and the date of birth to the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin. The address given for the parents in the newspaper announcements is actually, however, the August 1961 home address of Obama’s maternal grandparents Stanley and Madelyn Dunham [6085 Kalanianaole Highway], and not the 1961 home address of Barack Obama, Sr. [625 11th Ave].) This notification would then have automatically generated the newspaper announcements. (This was the practice of the Honolulu Advertiser and Star-Bulletin at the time).

Bottom line: Even IF (big IF) he was born in HI, he inherited his father's foreign citizenship as well, making him a US citizen by US law and a subject to the crown of her majesty the Queen of England by inheritance and England's law. He could not be considered a Natural Born Citizen as known by and as intended by the framers.

25 posted on 04/29/2010 2:55:48 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: Kleon

That is true. However in the day and age the Constitution was written that was the way it worked.

Today, no judge would agree. So, is that a deviation from original intent?

26 posted on 04/29/2010 2:56:19 PM PDT by K-oneTexas (I'm not a judge and there ain't enough of me to be a jury. (Zell Miller, A National Party No More))
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To: rxsid

It worked! Great!

27 posted on 04/29/2010 3:10:03 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: jamese777; K-oneTexas; Red Steel; El Gato; LucyT; BP2; STARWISE; pissant; Fred Nerks; ...
"Schneider v. Rusk, 377 U.S. 163 (1964) ...We start from the premise that the rights of citizenship of the native born and of the naturalized person are of the same dignity, and are coextensive. The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the “natural born” citizen is eligible to be President. Art. II, § 1."

Again, your own quote from that case:

The only difference drawn by the Constitution is that only the “natural born” citizen is eligible to be President.

The court CLEARLY states there is a difference in that only the "natural born citizen" is eligible to be President. yes, both are "citizens" but the "native" born citizen is NOT eligible because only the "natural born" citizen is.

"“Young Steinkauler is a native-born American citizen. There is no law of the United States under which his father or any other person can deprive him of his birthright. He can return to America at the age of twenty-one, and in due time, if the people elect, he can become President of the United States;”—Perkins v. Elg, 307 US 325 – Supreme Court 1939"

The court found that Ms. Elg was found to be a "natural born citizen" because she was born in the mainland USA (New York) of TWO US citizen parents. And the "Young Steinkauler" that they mention in Elg's case was ALSO a Natural Born Citizen as his parents were citizens at the time of his birth in St. Louis in 1855 (1 year after his father from Germany became a naturalized US citizen).

You see....A "Natural Born Citizen" is a "citizen" as well as a "native" born citizen. Obviously.

But, a "native" born citizen (while a citizen, yes) is not necessarily a Natural Born citizen. The perfect example in these modern times are so called anchor babies. They are "native" born citizens by being born here, but they are not Natural Born citizens as they don't have 2 parents who were US citizens at the time of their birth.

28 posted on 04/29/2010 3:18:41 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: rxsid
But, a "native" born citizen (while a citizen, yes) is not necessarily a Natural Born citizen.

So easy even a cave man could understand it, yet....

29 posted on 04/29/2010 3:20:23 PM PDT by Las Vegas Ron ("Because without America, there is no free world" - Canada Free Press - MSM, where are you?)
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To: All
Regarding the "young Steinkanler." He was a "Natural Born Citizen" because he was born in the U.S. to 2 (two) citizen parents. Obviously, he is ALSO as "native" born citizen.

THE recent case of one Steinkanler, who, being a resident of Germany, was called upon to do military duty in that empire, but who appealed to the United States authorities for protection, on the ground that he was born In the United States, of naturalized parents
The Albany law journal, Volume 12 (From July 1875 to January 1876 - page 22).
30 posted on 04/29/2010 3:45:38 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: philman_36

Yeah! Thanks again for the formatting (centering) suggestion.

31 posted on 04/29/2010 3:53:14 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: rjsimmon
The term "United States" existed long before the Constitution was ratified. Article II Section I Clause V states:

And indeed, there were two Presidents who were born after the United States came into existance, but before the Consittution was ratified. Presidents Martin Van Buren, born in December of 1782 and Zachary Taylor, born in November 1784.

But the period was not really all that long. July of 1776 (at the earliest, some might date the existance from ratification of the Ariticles of Confederation (March 1781), or the Treaty of Paris(signed September 1783, ratified in January 1784) to June 21, 1788 when the Constitution was ratified. I used the 1776 date, but you'd get the same result if you used the 1781 date of the Articles. I would not use the Treaty of Paris, since that was only getting the Brits to aknowledge what had already been created.

But it really doesn't matter because both were Natural Born Citizens of the United States and were also citizens at the time of the Adoption of the Constitution, as was everyone then living in the United States that did not choose to evacuate to Canda or England.

But other than those two, who could hardly be considered founders, the rest of the first 12 Presidents, where not natural born citizens of The United States. They were natural born subjects of King George of England, Although all were born in the King's American colonies, it would have been possible for an immigrant from either another British colony, like Alexander Hamilton who was indeed a founder, to have become President during that period, as long as he was living in the US at the time of the adoption of the Constitution. So could Friedrich von Stueban,a Prussian by birth, but who was the first Drillmaster of what was then the Continental Army. He became a citizen in 1783, before adoption of the Constitutioin. (But virtually no one wanted him to be President, probably not even himself)

32 posted on 04/29/2010 3:55:26 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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To: El Gato

Regarding Friedrich von’s amazing what he did to help the troops, especially while at Valley Forge!

33 posted on 04/29/2010 3:59:00 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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To: jamese777; rxsid; All


Here's my rebuttal to your Post 12, broken down by Subpoint:

1) Stop being a douchebag.

2) The Hughes SCOTUS Court was NOT talking about the Constitutional definition of “natural-born Citizen” as it pertains to the President and CinC. NO OTHER OFFICE IN THE LAND as specified in the Constitution or elsewhere has the UNIQUE “natural-born Citizen” requirement in Art II, § 1, Clause 5. Deconstruction of the Constitutional definition of “natural-born Citizen” was NOT the charge of the Hughes Court in Perkins v. Elg (1939), and you know it.

3) The Hughes Court gave us all kinds of crappy rulings, INCLUDING the poorly-written US v. Heller (1939) opinion ... which gave us nearly 70 years of bad Local, State and Federal laws relating to "to keep and bear arms", until it was overturned by the DC v. Heller opinion (2008).

4) As Minor v. Happersett (1874) CLEARLY instructs: "The Constitution does not, in words, say who shall be natural-born citizens. Resort must be had elsewhere to ascertain that."
This Court STANDARD of deducing ANY Constitutional-meaning and definition refers to the texts used by the Framers at the time in 1787. In this case, it would refer to Vattel's Law of Nations, Blackstone's Commentaries and perhaps Locke ... NEITHER a 1869 Naturalization Treaty with Sweden, NOR a smattering of various 20th Century Immigration Laws.

If you're lost on any of these four major arguments, just refer back to Subpoint 1 as it addresses the impetus of your confusion and motivation on this issue.

34 posted on 04/29/2010 4:28:15 PM PDT by BP2 (I think, therefore I'm a conservative)
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To: BP2


35 posted on 04/29/2010 4:35:04 PM PDT by tutstar (Baptist Ping List-freepmail me to be included or removed. <{{{><)
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To: rxsid; bushpilot1
The quality of the dialog has been increased enormously by your essays rsxid, and by Bushpilot1’s, on natural law, the significance of which is beginning to dawn on me. I have not had time to pursue a pointer at Apuzzo’s site to Aristotle discussing citizenship, preceding the Roman adoption of varients of jus soli and jus sanguinis, but these are ideas common to civilizations and thus the notion of natural law. I especially appreciated the idea Bushpilot1 illuminated that some concepts are intuitively accepted because we feel they are correct. It is not unlike the realization, which is explained by Descartes, that truth as used in mathematics is ultimately based upon the “feeling” that some concept is as clear as it can be “clear and distinct to the human reason”. (That is illustrated by the Peano Axioms, which would be too much a diversion to try to explain, but some of you will have seen them.)

I am still amazed, and a little saddened, that the author of the decision in Perkins v. Elg, Charles Evans Hughes, confirmed Vattel in 1936, but ran for president in 1916, after resigning as an associate justice. He was appointed chief justice by Harding, even after the publicized opinion by future Sec of State Breckenridge Long that he, Hughes, was clearly ineligible having been born of a British father.
A justice and chief justice of the supreme court must have known he was ineligible, and risked becoming a usurper.

We are doing our parts here to share the results of our efforts to find the truth. The problem now is a marketing and sales problem. “Conservative” media have succombed to the name calling, and perhaps also to the threat of legal retribution (thinking of the ethics charges which appeared when Georgia Congressman politely asked the White House to quel public questions by providing a modicum of information). Free Republic is read by lots who won't admit to it, but not nearly as many as watch Oprah or read tabloids (I'll guess that circulation approaches that of many of the dying “mainstream” newspapers.) WorldNet Daily gets more hits as a rumor mill, and pumps the sensationalist aspects. How do we reach smart, but otherwise too occupied voters to convey the meaning of the framers?”

Apuzzo, Kerchner, and their contributors are often superb, but not likely to be read accept by the left, and by those of us who have become Constitutional legal history fans. I've wondered if a concise tea party tea shirt wouldn't help. It would identify those who are confident of their grasp of the facts both to the Obots and the sincerely puzzled. Those of us who have read know most all the Obot diversions, and, as rsxid just did, will explain them to the less informed. Truth is strength, but comes at the price of having to be prepared. Ridicule requires little preparation, but most adults recognize it. Ridicule can be turned to our advantage as people, hearing an apparent disagreement, will listen more carefully. There is simply no legal doctrine contrary to the affirmations of four chief justices and six or seven associate justices.

The rsxid phrase taken from Leo Donofrio’s site, “How can a British Citizen ...” is a bit long for a tea shirt, but that is the idea. I'm partial to “Born on the soil of citizen parents”, but suspect too few would know what it means. Tea Party Tea Shirts is just one suggestion, one which we could each do for ourselves, but if Free Republic were to offer such shirts, and order them in quantities, I know I would pay a premium price for a shirt with the appropriate message knowing the differential would support FR.

How about a set of Chief Justice Shirts, perhaps including a 14th Amendment Shirt, each one with the Vattel definition? How about an Obama shirt quoting his “I am a Native Born U.S. Citizen” followed by the Wong Kim statement defining their uniqueness? How about the Obama “...born a subject of the British...” quote followed by any of a half dozen quotations about sole allegiance, Waite's for example? Roadside signs are impersonal, and can't explain or argue back. Tea shirts usually have people in them. How about a set of Constitutional Tea Shirts?

36 posted on 04/29/2010 6:52:17 PM PDT by Spaulding
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To: Spaulding


“Where’s the Birth Certificate?” is good, but your idea is better. There could be a few varieties of them, with pithy, informative short messages.

37 posted on 04/29/2010 7:18:07 PM PDT by little jeremiah ( - Good herb formulas made by a friend)
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To: Spaulding; El Gato; BuckeyeTexan; BP2; Mr Rogers; Beckwith; jamese777; rxsid; Red Steel; gunnyg; ...

The laws of nature(God), which all nations observe alike, being established by a divine providence, remain ever fixed and immutable.

But the laws(laws by men) which every state has enacted, undergo frequent changes, either by the tacit consent of the people, or by a new law being subsequently passed. Justinian.

Natural born citizen cannot be changed or amended it is a natural law.

This changes everything..

38 posted on 04/29/2010 8:30:54 PM PDT by bushpilot1
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To: meadsjn

Your addition “and born to parents (plural) who are citizens of the United States” is not found in the Constitution. It is your definition. It is not everybody’s.

I suspect the concern over both parents is a very modern concern. Until the early 1900s, women were generally assumed to be the same citizenship as their husband. I seriously doubt anyone at the Constitutional Convention asked themselves, “But what if the mother was an American, and the bigamist father but not legally husband was a foreigner who then abandoned the child and mother both...”

In the latter half of the 20th century, it seems to have been accepted law that NBC included anyone born in the USA. The only controversy was over those born outside the USA.

That may or may not have been the original intent, but the original intent wasn’t written down. Some said one, some said the other. But the SCOTUS had a chance to weigh in before Obama was certified, and they declined. They won’t weigh in now...

39 posted on 04/29/2010 8:47:39 PM PDT by Mr Rogers
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To: bushpilot1
Natural born citizen cannot be changed or amended it is a natural law.

That's true, but the law is that the child follows the condition of the parents, with birth on US soil. It doesn't matter how the parents got to be citizens, They do not need to be natural born. If they did, no one woudl be a natural born citizen. The people born before the revolution weren't, and any new immigrants, like my my great grand parents Harrison, or my Great Great Grandparents Kunz, would also not be natural born, and so I would not natural born. But since my great grandfather Kunz was born in the US, he was at least a citizen, and may have been natural born if his parents were naturalized before he was born. Meanwhile, even if my great grandparents Harrison were never naturalized, unlikely though that is, my grandmother Gato, their daughter, was born in the US and was thus a citizen. But bothe my parents were born in the US, and thus at minimum were citizens, and I know my mother was natural born, since I know her parents were both born in the US.

I think you are working under the misunderstanding that to be natural born, your parents must be natural born. Or you just want "those people" not to be natural born. But they are, despite what you might prefer.

40 posted on 04/29/2010 9:40:16 PM PDT by El Gato ("The second amendment is the reset button of the US constitution"-Doug McKay)
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