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Noah’s Ark nestled on Mount Ararat
The Peninsula - Qatar's Leading English Daily ^ | January 19th, 2008 | SATISH KANADY

Posted on 05/04/2010 3:52:00 PM PDT by FootBall

Dogubayazit (Turkey’s Iran-Armenian Border) • For the first time in the seven decade-long history of the search for the legendary Noah’s Ark, a Turkish-Hong Kong exploration team on Tuesday came out with “material evidence”, to prove that the Ark was nestled on Mount Ararat, Turkey’s highest mountain peak bordering Iran and Armenia.

A panel of experts, comprising Turkish authorities, veteran mountaineers, archaeologists, geologists and members of Hong Kong-based Noah’s Ark Ministries International, also displayed an almost one-metre-long peice of petrified wood before the media and specially invited international experts.

The experts claimed it to be a part of a long structure they had unearthed during their February-August 2007 exploration. “It is for the first time in the history of the Ark search that an exploration team is getting a material evidence and graphic documentation. This makes it not only a the significant breakthrough in the Ark-search, but one that is supported with the most substantial evidence in recent history,” the panel said.

The revelation is expected to open up a fresh chapter in the ongoing debates in the scientific community on the search for Noah’s Ark.

Narrating the genesis of their exploration on Mount Ararat, the mount which has a direct reference in Holy Quran (Mount Judi) and Bible, the panel said the search team had made several foiled attempts before unearthing the evidence at an altitude of 4,500-metres of the estimated 5,165 metre volcanic mountain.

“The structure was discovered in the interiors of an unusual cave. The 11.5m wide and 2.6m high white wooden texture was revealed after removing thick layers of volcanic ash on the cave wall,” panel members said at a press conference.

One of the underlying issues in the search for the Ark is the proper identification of its wood fragments. A petrographic examination carried out by the Applied Geoscience Centre of the Department of Earth Sciences, University of Hong Kong, identified the object as a petrified wooden structure, the panel said.

“Some of the big holes found on the structure indicate the locations where branches used to grow on tree. In places, original holes are partly or completely replaced by individual minerals and crystalline materials that can be found in rock materials,” said Dr Ahmet Ozbek, a panel member, who is also a faculty of Geology Engineering Kahramanmara Suctcu Imam University.

Dismissing the possibilities of the structure being wood that could appear naturally around the discovery site, Professor Oktay Belli, director, Eurasian Archaeology Institute, University of Istanbul, said researches have proved that there was no vegetation on Mount Ararat ever since 2000BC, because of the asperities of Ararat’s climate.

Talking to The Peninsula, Cemalettin Demircioglu, Dogubayazit City Governor, under whose jurisdiction the mount is located, said the civic body will invite more international experts to conduct further scientific studies on Mount Ararat.

“History has more than one times corroborated the legendary evidence that the ark was nestled on Mount Ararat. We will introduce the latest findings to the world and continue the scientific study. All interested scientists and NGOs can join our missions” he said. However, he said, those who are involved in the project must ensure the findings are not used politically, religiously, or for any vested interest.

Located in the Far Eastern Turkey, Ararat is great prize for mountain collectors. Ark sighting has often been reported from this mountain. The observation of Vessel-shaped features in aerial photograph of Ararat had caused a stir in the late 1950’s. However, this is the first time an exploration team is coming out with “material evidence”.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: ark; chat; godsgravesglyphs; noahs; noahsark; noahsarkminitries; repost; turkey
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This is what "Noah's Ark Ministries International" came down from the mountain with on Tuesday, January 15th, 2008
1 posted on 05/04/2010 3:52:00 PM PDT by FootBall
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To: FootBall
ELVIS !!!!!
2 posted on 05/04/2010 3:53:01 PM PDT by beebuster2000
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To: FootBall

Noah’s Ark find claim a hoax...

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30/noahs-ark-hoax-claim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews


3 posted on 05/04/2010 3:56:49 PM PDT by The Magical Mischief Tour
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To: beebuster2000

Jesus just left Chicago and he’s bound for New Orleans.


4 posted on 05/04/2010 3:58:02 PM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SunkenCiv

Yet another on the Ark. It’s true! A Qatar newspaper says so.


5 posted on 05/04/2010 3:59:30 PM PDT by colorado tanker
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To: The Magical Mischief Tour
Agreed...

Scholarly Squad Debunks Biblical 'Discoveries'

6 posted on 05/04/2010 4:00:04 PM PDT by Constitution Day
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To: FootBall
My sister knows one of the Archaeologist that has been on the expedition. He has been there a couple of times and has seen the same thing in person we are now seeing in video and pictures. He and his wife has stayed over night at her house when he was in the area speaking at area Churches about the ARK exploration. He is convinced beyond a doubt that this is the real deal, and so am I.
7 posted on 05/04/2010 4:04:57 PM PDT by NavyCanDo
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To: FootBall

With todays technology, you would think they could snap a picture or 2, huh? Yeah, in other words, I’m not buying the crap they are selling.


8 posted on 05/04/2010 4:05:52 PM PDT by vpintheak (Love of God, Family and Country has made me an extremist.)
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To: cripplecreek
Jesus just left Chicago and he’s bound for New Orleans.

He arrived in NO yesterday.

9 posted on 05/04/2010 4:06:33 PM PDT by ColdWater ("The theory of evolution really has no bearing on what I'm trying to accomplish with FR anyway. ")
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To: FootBall

I get confused: is it Noah’s Ark, the cure for cancer, or the way to make cheap solar energy cells they find more often?


10 posted on 05/04/2010 4:08:19 PM PDT by Grut
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To: ColdWater

And Muddy Water turned to wine.


11 posted on 05/04/2010 4:11:56 PM PDT by Jewbacca (The residents of Iroquois territory may not determine whether Jews may live in Jerusalem.)
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To: NavyCanDo; Quix; TaraP
You were saying ...

My sister knows one of the Archaeologist that has been on the expedition. He has been there a couple of times and has seen the same thing in person we are now seeing in video and pictures. He and his wife has stayed over night at her house when he was in the area speaking at area Churches about the ARK exploration. He is convinced beyond a doubt that this is the real deal, and so am I.

Another very reliable and respected expert (a Christian, but also an expert in his field), who has been up there (on the expedition before) with this group and has had prior experience with the guide -- has gone on record saying that he doesn't believe that it's real and that he has questions about this guide and how he's restricting access to the area and would not allow this expert (the one speaking about it) to examine things or even go on this expedition, even though they were there on the mountain at the same time.

He says it's very suspicious... and he wouldn't trust it.

So, from even a Christian perspective, it's not a good idea to "throw in" with this particular expedition, as they may have been "bamboozled"... :-)

12 posted on 05/04/2010 4:12:57 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: NavyCanDo

One more thing ... I wanted to also make clear that I have no doubt about there having been a Noah’s Ark, exactly as the Bible describes it and this other expert has no doubt either. He has also been on expedition searching for it, but he’s fairly well convinced that “this” — is not the real thing ... (not that the Bible’s account is not the real thing, which he [and I] believe fully ...).


13 posted on 05/04/2010 4:14:46 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Constitution Day
I haven't seen evidence pro or con about this recent discovery, but reading that article makes me pretty skeptical of the author and his organization's motives.

One example:

"Now, whenever a suspect archaeological discovery hits the headlines, the committee and its associated scholars churn into action -- reaching out to journalists, writing blog posts, sending out Twitter and Facebook alerts, and dispatching op-eds to newspapers and magazines"

I don't see anything in that about examining the evidence. It sounds like they are operating from a position that any evidence is prima facie fabricated and it is beneath them to consider any discovery not from a legitimate source.

Further, "All this, Cline says, makes the lives of real scholars more challenging. "The gullible believers and evangelicals, along with other faiths, throw money at these expeditions not knowing whether they're going to produce anything," he says. "Every year we have to scrounge for money to run a real excavation that may shed some real light." "

A) I find it unlikely that evangelicals supporting biblical archeology would be sending that money to other non-biblical archeolgical digs - so none of their funding is likely affected.

B) Seeing as above, they find biblical archeology to be a waste of time, why would anyone currently supporting biblical archeology bother to put these "scholars" "in the loop"?

I'm 100% behind exposing frauds, especially if they are out to make money from believers, but I'm not sure these "scholars" are as interested in preventing fraud as they are in protecting their turf. Nothing wrong with that either, I'd just prefer they drop the faux aura of noble intent.
14 posted on 05/04/2010 4:16:15 PM PDT by chrisser (Starve the Monkeys!)
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To: NavyCanDo; Quix; TaraP; FootBall; beebuster2000; The Magical Mischief Tour; cripplecreek; ...
Here is an interview from this expert on this expedition and why it's most likely a "hoax" ...

May 1, 2010 - Hour 1

Eric Barger sits in for Jan who needed a weekend off. His guest is Dr. Randall Price who addresses the alleged recent finding of "Noah's Ark." Why is this likely bogus? Will it ever be found? Price has upcoming expeditions planned for Mt. Ararat and has made numerous attempts to find the Ark which have all failed to date. He feels he is close, however, to an amazing discovery. Would this be an end-time sign that the Bible is accurate? Remember, the "last days" are compared to the days of Noah. Find the spring conference CDs and DVDs Eric referred to here. They will be ready to ship in about two weeks. We also carry several of Barger's products in our "store." www.ericbarger.com -- www.worldofthebible.com

I would pay attention to this guy as he's been there, has been associated with that very same group, and also has been associated with that very same guide, whom he thinks is perpetrating a hoax, apparently ...

15 posted on 05/04/2010 4:22:10 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: FootBall

“displayed an almost one-metre-long peice of petrified wood before the media and specially invited international experts. . . “

Does wood petrify in 6,000 years? I think it takes a LOT longer than that.


16 posted on 05/04/2010 4:29:51 PM PDT by ModelBreaker
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To: All
Noah's Ark links (recently here on Free Republic, including this thread) ...

Noah and the Missing Link

Noah’s Ark nestled on Mount Ararat

Noah’s Ark PaleoBabble Update (hoax?)

Evangelists claim Noahs Ark Found

Evangelical Explorers Claim To Have Found Noah's Ark


17 posted on 05/04/2010 4:31:47 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: ModelBreaker; FootBall
You were saying ...

Does wood petrify in 6,000 years? I think it takes a LOT longer than that.

This is not necessarily in support of this article... but just for some "info" on the subject.... yes, you can petrify wood in a short amount of time under the right conditions and those conditions have been found to have taken place in nature... not only the lab.

But, in the lab, you can apparently petrify wood in a very short time (can't remember exactly how long right now, but I'm going to say in about an hour, or, at the very least, in no longer than one day).

18 posted on 05/04/2010 4:34:20 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: FootBall
Not that not finding Noah's ark proves anything, but ...

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/latest_ark_finding_is_a_fake.php

19 posted on 05/04/2010 4:34:26 PM PDT by Salman
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To: Star Traveler
This isn't the only trip up to Mt Ararat. Some people have found something and some have not. Price sounds like sour grapes and wants $100,000. Many groups have gone up as far back as the crusades. It is muslem territory now and few are allowed in and some are robbed by bands of rebels so they don't make it. It will probably take years to see just what they have found. There is something there we just have to wait to find out just what.
20 posted on 05/04/2010 4:35:13 PM PDT by mountainlion (concerned conservative.)
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To: mountainlion

Well, Dr. Price has an excellent reputation and he’s not one who is known to “hype” anything. He’s cautious and although he’s convinced the ark is somewhere up there, he’s not going to just go “willy-nilly” and verify anything without rigorous testing and ample evidence. When he verifies something — it’s going to be “absolutely sure” and scientifically done. That’s the kind of reputation he has — and that’s exactly the kind of “reputation” that all Christians need to have in looking at this sort of thing.

It sounds like (from what the information is, that is given) that the guides and others who “control” the situation have “bamboozled” some “media guys” (the expeditionary team) and have excluded “experts” who are qualified to make scientific determinations ... for the purpose of perpetrating a hoax, more than anything else.

I wouldn’t be dismissing that expert’s valid information and experience, from what I’ve seen from him over the years, and I’ve been familiar with him from long before anything here ever came up. He’s well qualified and respected in Christian circles and is in no way minimizing the existence of the Ark, as we are told, in the Bible.


21 posted on 05/04/2010 4:40:17 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

How would one “ verify” or “authenticate” this?


22 posted on 05/04/2010 4:48:03 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops....and vote out the RINOS!)
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To: Star Traveler
There was another article where Price, It could have been someone else, wanted $100,000 and seem to say there was a hoax. I suppose that some would take people up the mountain for a large sum of money. There is defiantly something in the ice.
23 posted on 05/04/2010 4:52:45 PM PDT by mountainlion (concerned conservative.)
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To: ColdWater

So when the three men I admire most took the last train for the coast, it was the Gulf Coast?


24 posted on 05/04/2010 4:53:27 PM PDT by sportutegrl
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To: FootBall

What a bullshit article passing for “journalism”.......and too many of y’all are biting (and you damned well should know better).

This piece doesn’t say jack-squat to prove this is a “hoax”. All it does is trot out a bunch of “skeptics” (gee golly, what a shock).

Yet, you all join the chorus.

What in the hell are you all afraid of? Jeez Louise. The Bible says the Ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat. Where the hell else would you expect it to be found? Why the knee-jerk reaction and all the sarcasm on this thread?

Just pisses me off. Closed minds always do that to me.


25 posted on 05/04/2010 4:58:13 PM PDT by RightOnline
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To: stephenjohnbanker
You were asking ...

How would one “ verify” or “authenticate” this?

The first thing you do to verify or authenticate that -- is you let experts in their fields (regarding archeology and/or testing methodologies) get in there and have free reign to examine and test things ... plus be able to examime the overall location and see if it's something consistent with a big boat being there... (namely, you don't find it inside of a cave on the side of a mountain, as it seems that the guide is trying to "show" to others).

Experts have been excluded from the expedition and just the "media guys" (that's who is in that expedition). And you don't let the "guide" keep control over all materials (from the supposed site) and keep it locked up and only show it when he says so and not let the experts get their hands on it. And you don't keep these experts exluded from examining the actual location.

You "start" with a good methodology ... and then you "work it through" and examine all the details of the site and see if it's "consistent" with an ark being there.

You look for the things that negate that this particular site is the actual location of the ark and see if those facts and reasons are valid. You work from the negative and see if any are valid and hold up to scrutiny.

When you find people restricting access, keeping out the experts, using only "media people" and these same media people have an "investment" in the expedition and especially in showing it on their media outlets -- it's not too good of a methodology for getting the right information about it.

That's a start... and that is not what is being done here...

26 posted on 05/04/2010 4:59:19 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

I agree.


27 posted on 05/04/2010 5:02:52 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (Support our troops....and vote out the RINOS!)
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To: mountainlion
You were saying ...

There was another article where Price, It could have been someone else, wanted $100,000 and seem to say there was a hoax.

There are a lot of people who have attempted this. I would double-check the guy you're talking about. If you want to see more about this particular guy I'm talking about -- you can see some prior reports he's had on that ... at his website (which contains a lot more than just something about Noah's Ark, by the way). You can see some prior newsletters he's had, plus one webpage where he posts a statement.

World of the Bible

I would also listen to his interview on Jan Markell's Olive Tree Ministries program ...

May 1, 2010 - Hour 1

Eric Barger sits in for Jan who needed a weekend off. His guest is Dr. Randall Price who addresses the alleged recent finding of "Noah's Ark." Why is this likely bogus? Will it ever be found? Price has upcoming expeditions planned for Mt. Ararat and has made numerous attempts to find the Ark which have all failed to date. He feels he is close, however, to an amazing discovery. Would this be an end-time sign that the Bible is accurate? Remember, the "last days" are compared to the days of Noah. Find the spring conference CDs and DVDs Eric referred to here. They will be ready to ship in about two weeks. We also carry several of Barger's products in our "store." www.ericbarger.com -- www.worldofthebible.com


I suppose that some would take people up the mountain for a large sum of money.

Yeah, if you listen to the interview by Dr. Randall Price, you'll find out that it's the guide who is controllling all the artifacts and access to the site ... that's one culprit I would put the finger on ... :-)


There is defiantly something in the ice.

Perhaps, and Dr. Randall Price thinks there's something up there, too... but he's not saying that it's Noah's Ark. He'll be verifying it first before saying so.

And so, the question is not so much that there "is something up there" -- but rather -- "What is it, that is up there?" ... :-)

28 posted on 05/04/2010 5:07:48 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Grut

I think it’s proof of life on other planets.


29 posted on 05/04/2010 5:08:18 PM PDT by Richard Kimball (We're all criminals. They just haven't figured out what some of us have done yet.)
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To: FootBall

“Ararat is great prize for mountain collectors”

huh?

I would very much like an Ararat first edition in my collection...it’d go quite well with my Rockies (Canadian and American), my Unaka from the Great Smokies, and my Mt Dora from Florida...next on my list though, is an Ande...


30 posted on 05/04/2010 5:10:27 PM PDT by stefanbatory (Weed out the RINOs! Sign the pledge. conservativepledge.org)
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To: RightOnline
You were saying ...

This piece doesn’t say jack-squat to prove this is a “hoax”. All it does is trot out a bunch of “skeptics” (gee golly, what a shock).

Well, there's an expert in archeology who has been up there, and is going up again, who pretty much says this sounds like a hoax. And he's one of those who is actually looking for Noah's Ark ... :-)

So, this idea that it's a "hoax" is not something that is being perpetrated by skeptics in the Bible, but also it's being said by those who have been on expeditions looking for Noah's Ark on that very mountain and who believe exactly what the Bible says and still "sees" the hoax being perpetrated here...

See Post #28 ...

Also, see Post #17 for other FReeper articles on the subject.

31 posted on 05/04/2010 5:12:31 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
I have reread the article that I read and it was poorly written and misleading. I think the guide are making the money and probably the muslms don't want it to be found. I have seen a couple of good tv shows on the Ark and find it most interesting.
32 posted on 05/04/2010 5:22:11 PM PDT by mountainlion (concerned conservative.)
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To: ModelBreaker
..Does wood petrify in 6,000 years? I think it takes a LOT longer than that...

I used to say the exact same thing because that was the mantra in science class. But then I started asking if there was any experimental or emperical evidence that verified these statements. To my surprise, I have yet to find any. All sources I have found seem to take this "long time to fossilize" as a given, with no need to verify.

if you find any verification of this oft-repeated "fact" I would love to see it.

33 posted on 05/04/2010 5:29:29 PM PDT by poindexters brother
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To: poindexters brother; ModelBreaker
You were saying ...

if you find any verification of this oft-repeated "fact" I would love to see it.

There's evidence to the contrary ... namely being able to petrify wood in just a few days (there may even be quicker methods, as I seem to remember a day or less..., too...).

Petrified Wood in Days
January 25, 2005

Petrified wood is a type of fossil, in which the tissues of a dead plant are replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, like quartz). The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood or woody materials suddenly become buried under sediment. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant's cells and as the plant's lignin and cellulose decays away, a stone cast is left in its place.

Shin's petrified wood journey began in a less dramatic fashion, a few minutes away at Lowe's, Shin's group reports in the current issue of the journal Advanced Materials, in the do-it-yourselfer chain's lumberyard,. There they picked up their raw material: pine and poplar boards. Back at PNNL, they gave a 1 centimeter cube of wood a two-day acid bath, soaked it in a silica solution for two more (for best results, repeat this step up to three times), air-dried it, popped it into an argon-filled furnace gradually cranked up to 1,400 degrees centigrade to cook for two hours, then let cool in argon to room temperature. Presto. Instant petrified wood, the silica taking up permanent residence with the carbon left in the cellulose to form a new silicon carbide, or SiC, ceramic. The material "replicates exactly the wood architecture," according to Shin.

34 posted on 05/04/2010 5:37:15 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: poindexters brother; ModelBreaker
Here's a Wikipedia article on the subject ...

Petrified wood

Petrified wood (from the Greek root "petro" meaning "rock" or "stone", literally "wood turned into stone") is a type of fossil: it consists of fossil wood where all the organic materials have been replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, such as quartz), while retaining the original structure of the wood. The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood becomes buried under sediment and is initially preserved due to a lack of oxygen. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant's cells and as the plant's lignin and cellulose decay away, a stone mould forms in its place.

In general, wood takes less than 100 years to petrify. The organic matter needs to become petrified before it decomposes completely. A forest where the wood has petrified becomes known as a petrified forest.

[ ... ]

Artificial petrified wood

Artificial petrified wood has been produced in a Washington laboratory. In the process small cubes of pine were soaked in an acid bath for two days, then in a silica solution for another two. The product was then cooked at 1400 °C in an argon atmosphere for two hours. The result was silicon carbide ceramic which preserved the intricate cell structure of the wood. Soaking in a tungsten solution produced a tungsten carbide petrified wood.


35 posted on 05/04/2010 5:53:31 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

“Petrified wood

Petrified wood (from the Greek root “petro” meaning “rock” or “stone”, literally “wood turned into stone”) is a type of fossil: it consists of fossil wood where all the organic materials have been replaced with minerals (most often a silicate, such as quartz), while retaining the original structure of the wood. The petrifaction process occurs underground, when wood becomes buried under sediment and is initially preserved due to a lack of oxygen. Mineral-rich water flowing through the sediment deposits minerals in the plant’s cells and as the plant’s lignin and cellulose decay away, a stone mould forms in its place.

In general, wood takes less than 100 years to petrify. The organic matter needs to become petrified before it decomposes completely. A forest where the wood has petrified becomes known as a petrified forest.”

That Wiki article attributes the 100 year timeframe to the source “Petrified Forest National Park - Frequently Asked Questions from the U.S. National Park Service”

But if you look at that reference it says “How long does it take wood to petrify? Until we build that time machine, we probably will never know. It is thought by researchers that it took a relatively (geologically) short time due to some features of the logs. There are certain types of petrified wood in the park that actually still contain organic material, including lignin”

There is no mention at all of that 100 year timeframe.


36 posted on 05/04/2010 6:32:49 PM PDT by AussieJoe
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To: AussieJoe; poindexters brother; ModelBreaker
You were saying ...

There is no mention at all of that 100 year timeframe.

What we do know for sure... is that it can happen in a mere few days ... that part is known for sure.

Now, I'll have to look up some more information on it, that I know I've read before, but there may be some indication of a time-frame in some natural setting (but mind you, this lab situation could have also happened in a natural setting during some cataclysmic event, too...).

I'll see if I can find that other article.

The main thing to know right now -- is that you can petrify wood in as little as a few days ... and that's pretty significant, all by itself.

37 posted on 05/04/2010 6:38:01 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: RightOnline
The Bible says the Ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat. Where the hell else would you expect it to be found?

It's wood that came to rest on the top of a mountain after a great flood. It won't ever be found because it rotted away thousands of years ago.

38 posted on 05/04/2010 6:45:14 PM PDT by plain talk
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To: plain talk

Obviously not. Not the first account of an expedition finding such wood....not to mention an entire ship....in that area. Check out the early 20th century Russian expedition and other eyewitness accounts. That is WELL above the tree line, friend.

Now tell me how a wooden boat got up there. I’ll wait.


39 posted on 05/04/2010 6:55:59 PM PDT by RightOnline
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To: Star Traveler
Another article, but not the one I was looking for specifically. However, I thought it was very useful and interesting about the subject ...



‘Instant’ petrified wood

by Andrew Snelling
September 1995

‘Instant petrified wood’ — so ran the heading to the announcement in Popular Science, October 1992.1 It’s also the reality of research conducted at the Advanced Ceramic Labs at the University of Washington in Seattle (USA).

Researchers have also made wood-ceramic composites that are 20–120% harder than regular wood, but still look like wood. Surprisingly simple, the process involves soaking wood in a solution containing silicon and aluminium compounds. The solution fills the pores in the wood, which is then oven-cured at 44°C (112°F). According to the lab’s research director, Daniel Dobbs, such experiments have impregnated the wood to depths of about 5 millimetres (0.2 inches). Furthermore, deeper penetration under pressure and curing at higher temperature have yielded a rock-hard wood-ceramic composite that has approached petrified wood.

Patent 'recipe' for petrification

However, priority for the discovery of a 'recipe' for petrification of wood must go to Hamilton Hicks of Greenwich, Connecticut (USA), who on September 16, 1986 was issued with US Patent Number 4,612,050.2 According to Hicks, his chemical 'cocktail' of sodium silicate (commonly known as 'water glass'), natural spring or volcanic mineral water having a high content of calcium, magnesium, manganese, and other metal salts, and citric or malic acid is capable of rapidly petrifying wood. But in case you want to try this 'recipe,' you need to know that for artificial petrification to occur there is some special technique for mixing these components in the correct proportions to get an 'incipient' gel condition.

Hicks wrote:

'When applied to wood, the solution penetrates the wood. The mineral water and sodium silicate are relatively proportioned so the solution is a liquid of stable viscosity and is acidified to the incipient jelling [gelling] condition to a degree causing jelling [gelling] after penetrating the wood, but not prior thereto. That is to say, the solution can be stored and shipped, but after application to the wood, jells [gels] in the wood. When its content is high enough, the penetrated wood acquires the characteristics of petrified wood. The wood can no longer be made to burn even when exposed to moisture or high humidity, for a prolonged period of time. The apparent petrification is obtained quickly by drying the wood.'3

The patent indicates that the amount of acid in the solution appears to have a critical effect on the production of the gel phase within the cell structure of the wood, although evaporation also plays its part. Wood thoroughly impregnated, even if necessary by repeated applications or submersions of the wood in the solution, after drying evidently has all the characteristics of petrified wood, including its appearance.

Both Hicks and the researchers at the University of Washington lab have suggested potential uses for such 'instant' petrified woods:

Rapid natural petrification

The chemical components used to artificially petrify wood can be found in natural settings around volcanoes and within sedimentary strata. Is it possible then that natural petrification can occur rapidly by these processes? Indeed! Sigleo4 reported silica deposition rates into blocks of wood in alkaline springs at Yellowstone National Park (USA) of between 0.1 and 4.0 mm/yr.

From Australia come some startling reports. Writing in The Australian Lapidary Magazine, Pigott5 recounts his experiences in southwestern Queensland:

'. . . from Mrs McMurray [of Blackall], I heard a story that rocked me and seemed to explode many ideas about the age of petrified wood. Mrs McMurray has a piece of wood turned to stone which has clear axe marks on it. She says the tree this piece came from grew on a farm her father had at Euthella, out of Roma, and was chopped down by him about 70 years ago. It was partly buried until it was dug up again, petrified. Mac McMurray capped this story by saying a townsman had a piece of petrified fence post with the drilled holes for wire with a piece of the wire attached.

'Petrified wood thousands of years old? I wonder is it so?'

Several months later Pearce6 added further to these amazing stories of woods rapidly petrified in the ground of 'outback' Queensland:

'. . . Piggott writes of petrified wood showing axe marks and also of a petrified fence post.

'This sort of thing is, of course, quite common. The Hughenden district, N. Q. [North Queensland], has . . . Parkensonia trees washed over near a station [ranch] homestead and covered with silt by a flood in 1918 [which] had the silt washed off by a flood in 1950. Portions of the trunk had turned to stone of an attractive colour. However, much of the trunks and all the limbs had totally disappeared.

'On Zara Station [Ranch], 30 miles [about 48 kilometres] from Hughenden, I was renewing a fence. Where it was dipped into a hollow the bottom of the old posts had gone through black soil into shale. The Gidgee wood was still perfect in the black soil. It then cut off as straight as if sawn, and the few inches of post in the shale was pure stone. Every axe mark was perfect and the colour still the same as the day the post was cut . . . .

'I understand that down in the sandhill country below Boulia [south-western Queensland], where fences are often completely covered by shifting sand, it's a common thing for the sand to shift off after a number of years, leaving stone posts standing erect.'

From the other side of the world comes a report of the chapel of Santa Maria of Health (Santa Maria de Salute), built in 1630 in Venice, Italy, to celebrate the end of The Plague. Because Venice is built on watersaturated clay and sand, the chapel was constructed on 180,000 wooden pilings to reinforce the foundations. Even though the chapel is a massive stone block structure, it has remained firm since its construction. How have the wooden pilings lasted over 360 years? They have petrified! The chapel now rests on 'stone' pilings!7

Experimental verification

Of course, none of these reports should come as a surprise, since the processes of petrification of wood have been known for years, plus the fact that the process can occur, and has occurred, rapidly. For example Scurfield and Segnit8 had reported that the petrification of wood can be considered to take place in five stages:

  1. Entry of silica in solution or as a colloid into the wood.
  2. Penetration of silica into the cell walls of the wood's structure.
  3. Progressive dissolving of the cell walls which are at the same time replaced by silica so that the wood's dimensional stability is maintained.
  4. Silica deposition within the voids within the cellular wall framework structure.
  5. Final hardening (lithification) by Drying out.

Furthermore Oehler9 had previously shown that the silica minerals quartz and chalcedony critically important in the petrification of wood, can be made, rapidly in the laboratory from silica gel. At 300°C (572°F) and 3 kilobars (about 3,000 atmospheres) pressure only 25 hours was required to crystallize quartz, whereas at only 165°C (329°F) and 3 kilobars pressure the same degree of crystallization occurred in 170 hours (about seven days).

Similarly, Drum10 had partially silicified small branches by placing them in concentrated solutions of sodium metasilicate for up to 24 hours, while Leo and Barghoorn11 had immersed fresh wood alternately in water and saturated ethyl silicate solutions until the open spaces in the wood were filled with mineral material, all within several months to a year. Likewise, as early as 1950 Merrill and Spencer12 had shown that the sorption of silica by wood fibres from solutions of sodium metasilicate, sodium silicate and activated silica sols (a homogeneous suspension in water) at only 25°C (77°F) was as much as 12.5 moles of silica per gram within 24 hours--the equivalent of partial silicification/petrification. As Sigleo concluded,

'These observations indicate that silica nucleation and deposition can occur directly and rapidly on exposed cellulose [wood] surfaces.'13

Conclusions

The evidence, both from scientists' laboratories and God's natural laboratory, shows that under the right chemical conditions wood can be rapidly petrified by silicification, even at normal temperatures and pressures. The process of petrification of wood is now so well known and understood that scientists can rapidly make petrified wood in their laboratories at will.

Unfortunately, most people still think, and are led to believe, that fossilized wood buried in rock strata must have taken thousands, if not millions, of years to petrify. Clearly, such thinking is erroneous, since it has been repeatedly demonstrated that petrification of wood can, and does, occur rapidly. Thus the timeframe for the formation of the petrified wood within the geological record is totally compatible with the biblical time-scale of a recent creation and a subsequent devastating global Flood.


References

  1. Phil McCafferty, 'Instant petrified wood?', Popular Science, October 1992, pp. 56-57.
  2. Hamilton Hicks, 'Mineralized sodium silicate solutions for artificial petrification of wood', United States Patent Number 4,612,050, September 16,1986, pp. 1-3. As cited by: Steven Austin, CatastroRef--'Catastrophe Reference Database: Catastrophes in Earth History, Geologic Evidence, Speculation and Theory', Institute for Creation Research, San Diego. Entry no. 267.
  3. Hicks, Ref 2.
  4. A.C. Sigleo, 'Organic geochemistry of silicified wood, Petrified Forest National Park, Arizona', Geochimica et Cosmochimica Acta, Vol. 42, 1978, pp. 1397-1405.
  5. Roy Piggott, The Australian Lapidary Magazine, January 1970, p. 9.
  6. R.C. Pearce, 'Petnfied wood', The Australian Lapidary Magazine, June 1970, p. 33.
  7. Segment on 'Burke's Backyard', Channel 9 TV, Sydney, June 1995.
  8. G. Scurfield and E.R. Segnit, 'Petnfication of wood by silica minerals', Sedimentary Geology, Vol. 39, 1984, pp. 149- 167.
  9. John H. Oehler, 'Hydrothermal crystallization of silica gel', Geological Society of America Bulletin, Vol. 87, August 1976, pp. 1143-1152.
  10. R.W Drum, 'Silicification of Betula woody tissue in vitro', Science, Vol. 161, 1968, pp 175-176.
  11. R.E Leo, and E.S. Barghoorn, 'Silicification of wood', Harvard University Botanical Museum Leaflets, No. 25, 1976, pp. 1-47.
  12. R.C. Mernll and R.W. Spencer, 'Sorption of sodium silicates and silicate sols by cellulose fibers', Industrial Engineering Chemistry, Vol. 42, 1950, pp. 744-747.
  13. Sigleo, Ref 4, p. 1404.

40 posted on 05/04/2010 7:00:03 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: AussieJoe; poindexters brother; ModelBreaker
Ooops... was supposed to ping to Post #40 ... :-)
41 posted on 05/04/2010 7:01:33 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

” What we do know for sure... is that it can happen in a mere few days ... that part is known for sure.

Now, I’ll have to look up some more information on it, that I know I’ve read before, but there may be some indication of a time-frame in some natural setting (but mind you, this lab situation could have also happened in a natural setting during some cataclysmic event, too...).

I’ll see if I can find that other article.

The main thing to know right now — is that you can petrify wood in as little as a few days ... and that’s pretty significant, all by itself.”

Yes it has been demonstrated possible following a specific process in a lab. What needs to be demonstrated next is that shot timeframe petrification has actually happened anywhere in nature, what the natural conditions/processes are that cause it, and that those conditions actually existed on Mt Ararat at at the right time, in the right place.

That’s one challenge. In addition, there’s the issues of the complete lack of technology at the time to build a wooden ship of the required size with the required structural integrity, the housing and feeding of the number of animals, collecting the vast array of species from around the entire world and the lack of genetic diversity to repopulate them back into their specific geographic locations, and the requirement for an immense amount of water to cause the flood... but lets just stick to just one challenge for now.


42 posted on 05/04/2010 7:02:39 PM PDT by AussieJoe
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To: RightOnline; plain talk
You were saying ...

The Bible says the Ark came to rest on Mt. Ararat.

Ooops... I just caught this one ... go back and take a look again... it does not say Mt. Ararat... :-)

What is does say is very significantly different, enough so that other searchers for Noah's Ark are looking elsewhere...

43 posted on 05/04/2010 7:04:18 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: RightOnline

“Now tell me how a wooden boat got up there. I’ll wait.”

What wooden boat? there is as yet no confirmation of a wooden boat, only of petrified wood (maybe), which by *natural* processes takes long geologic time periods to form, time enough to account for climate and geological changes that make the existence of trees on that mountain not only possible but probable.

You can stop waiting now.


44 posted on 05/04/2010 7:07:48 PM PDT by AussieJoe
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To: AussieJoe
You were saying ...

What needs to be demonstrated next is that short timeframe petrification has actually happened anywhere in nature, what the natural conditions/processes are that cause it, and that those conditions actually existed on Mt Ararat at at the right time, in the right place.

Ummm..., I should say something "first" here, as you seem to have mistaken the reason why I posted information about wood being petrified relatively quickly. I was not bringing this up in connection with the supposed find on Mt. Ararat.

I was just answering someone else's post about wood being petrified slow or fast... that's all. There's no bearing of "petrified wood" to "Noah's Ark" as far as I'm concerned. I'm not making any connection here.

So, when you say start to get into something about "those conditions actually existed on Mt. Ararat" ... that doesn't mean anything to me. I hope you understand what I'm saying here.

NOW... what I was going to say. I think you've already seen this (as I pinged you a few minutes ago) ... but my Post #40 answers what you're talking about in a "natural setting" ... I would say ... :-)

45 posted on 05/04/2010 7:11:13 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: AussieJoe; RightOnline
You were saying to another FReeper ...

What wooden boat? there is as yet no confirmation of a wooden boat, only of petrified wood (maybe), which by *natural* processes takes long geologic time periods to form, time enough to account for climate and geological changes that make the existence of trees on that mountain not only possible but probable.

You need to go back to Post #28 ... and see what Dr. Randall Price has to say about that. He puts the idea of having petrified wood as a "detriment" to any proof that Noah's Ark has been found.

I think you may be misreading some Christians in what they say about this particular find, and how it's probably a hoax and not the "real thing" while they are still looking for the "real thing". That's the case with Dr. Randall Price ... listen to his detailed interview on the subject ... :-)

46 posted on 05/04/2010 7:15:06 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

Understood, thanks.

It’ll take some time to go through that article in detail to know if the evidence does in fact support the conclusions, but on the face of it the claims for rapid petrification appear to be anecdotal or hearsay, and some of those references are definitely not authoritative.


47 posted on 05/04/2010 7:21:12 PM PDT by AussieJoe
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To: stephenjohnbanker
“The structure was discovered in the interiors of an unusual cave. The 11.5m wide and 2.6m high white wooden texture was revealed after removing thick layers of volcanic ash on the cave wall,” panel members said at a press conference.

How did a ship the size of an aircraft carrier end up in a cave?

48 posted on 05/04/2010 7:31:31 PM PDT by gitmo ( The democRats drew first blood. It's our turn now.)
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To: gitmo; stephenjohnbanker
You were saying to another FReeper ...

How did a ship the size of an aircraft carrier end up in a cave?

Well, that's one of the problems that Dr. Randall Price brings up, which presents a problem in his way of thinking about it. He doesn't believe it's going to end up in a cave. The problem is, that the guide (whom he thinks is perpetrating a hoax) seems to like "caves" in terms of the artifacts that he says belongs to Noah's Ark.

From what I hear (of his interview), Dr. Randall Price... "isn't buying it" ... :-)

See Post #28 ...

49 posted on 05/04/2010 7:43:15 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: FootBall; NavyCanDo; mountainlion; RightOnline
The same dubious claims seem to come up from time to time. This is an article from a Christian organization that very strongly supports the Genesis account of the Creation and the Flood, along with the reality of Noah's Ark. Note that they are not in the business of falling for hoaxes, even though they know that the Bible's account is true and accurate.

So, Christians need to be discerning and stop falling for hoaxes... :-) This article was from another "episode" of false claims, too..., back in 2002.



Ark discovered! … again?

Dubious claims by Christians

19 April 2002

It is with great sadness that, from time to time, we need to make our supporters aware of disreputable claims ‘doing the rounds’ in Christian circles.  Recently the dubious claims of Ron Wyatt and Jonathan Gray surfaced once again in Australia.

At great expense (and no doubt funded by the donations of sincere people), an eight-page newspaper insert recently appeared in the major newspapers in Australia — the Gold Coast Mail and the Melbourne Herald Sun.

Between them Gray and Wyatt (the latter now deceased) have claimed to have discovered Noah’s Ark, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Ark of the Covenant, and the grain pits of Joseph.  Other sensational claims include the discovery of Christ’s actual blood cells and the Ten Commandments on stone tablets—held together by gold chains no less.

We would be excited, along with all Christians, if these claims were true.  Unfortunately, when asked to produce the artifacts, the discovers give only excuses.  Checks on some of their claims have produced a trail of falsehood after falsehood.  (See ‘Has the Ark of the Covenant been found?’)

An old article in Creation magazine (September-November 1992), ‘Could this be Noah’s Ark’, laid to rest the Wyatt rumors about discovery of Noah’s Ark.

The main claims at a glance

Why do we mention these articles on our Web site again?  Gray’s advertising insert Discovery Times has appeared in major secular newspapers in Australia and may appear in other newspapers, increasing the likelihood that Christians will be asked questions about these claims.

Being tarred with the same brush

A lack of integrity causes great damage to the Christian cause, especially when people are ‘immunized’ against the Gospel upon discovery that such claims are false.

Believers need to be wary of rumors and claims without evidence.  There are many Bible-believing scientists and archeologists who would love to help verify finds of this nature, if they were genuine.  We are commanded to ‘prove all things’ (1 Thessalonians 5:21).

50 posted on 05/04/2010 8:06:52 PM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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