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US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills
US rifles not suited to warfare in Afghan hills ^ | May 21, 2010 | AP

Posted on 05/22/2010 11:58:33 AM PDT by too_cool_for_skool

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To: EGPWS

One expensive accident. I’ve got an Aimpoint knockoff on mine.


51 posted on 05/22/2010 2:49:41 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: Ken522
I thought the M-14 was a great rifle as long as it wasn't used in full automatic.
However, the M-4 is a variant of the M-16 it fires semi auto, or 3 round burst.
Personally, I like the 6.8mm round in the M-4 configuration. It shoots longer, more accurately and has more punch.
52 posted on 05/22/2010 3:13:34 PM PDT by Doc91678 (Doc91678)
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To: Jack Black
I think this advantage outweighs any other mechanical cycling advantage the Garand may have.

A sniper convinced me that the time it took to lock the magazine slowed the M14. The M14 did come out full auto but it was almost uncontrollable. Open sighs in a fast match type shootout the M1 Garand wins.

53 posted on 05/22/2010 3:55:57 PM PDT by mountainlion (concerned conservative.)
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To: West Texas Chuck

LOL...I like the sound too. I have a Garand, and two friends who do as well, and when we went together to the range a few months back, a lot of people were poking their heads over to look. Lotsa Kaboom!


54 posted on 05/22/2010 3:58:55 PM PDT by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: too_cool_for_skool

I read a very good book a while back, Robert Kaplan’s “Imperial Grunts”, a very well written book and flattering to our military.

In it, an officer deployed in some Godforsaken part of the Horn of Africa was describing to the author the difference between an AK47 and an M16. A lot of stuff about the way they are manufactured and how that affects their accuracy. I kind of figured on that, but he made a point-even the way the magazines are constructed is very different and telling. An AK magazine must be removed with the hand by grasping it and pulling it so it doesn’t fall on the ground and get lost, while and M16 mag can be dropped out and a fresh one inserted without touching it. The officer (I think he was a USMC Major) opined that it highlighted the Soviet approach to soldiering...the magazine was more valuable than the life of the person firing the weapon...it was more important not to lose the magazine than it was to enable the soldier to reload faster.

I don’t know if this is true, but it was what the guy said...:)


55 posted on 05/22/2010 4:07:08 PM PDT by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: too_cool_for_skool

I believe you can count the Talibans still using Enfields on the fingers of one hand. During the Russian war it made much more sense to equip your side with a rifle that could use the magazines and ammunition of the enemy.

In Steve Coll’s “Ghost Wars” he writes that in the eighties the Chicoms were making money hand-over-fist manufacturing their Type 56 AK clone to be purchased with CIA money and shipped to the Muj.


56 posted on 05/22/2010 4:10:18 PM PDT by sinanju
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To: Ken522
Just read an account by a mother who briefly spoke to her newly deployed son. She said he asked for three things and ten M14 clips were on the list: "the new style (2-point plastic slides) - the old ones jam (1-point metal slide)". She was confused by it and wondered if she heard correctly. He trained on the M-4.
57 posted on 05/22/2010 4:15:07 PM PDT by Brugmansian
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To: Iron Munro

You’ve obviously have never tried your magic M14 inside a building or a vehicle, or tried to get it to hold zero after jumping it.


58 posted on 05/22/2010 4:30:20 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: rlmorel
I have an M-1 that was rechambered in 7.62 by the Navy. It has one little stamp to tell you it is 7.62 and a plastic block in the front of the magazine well to keep you from putting a clip of 30-06 into the gun.

It's a lot of fun to shoot, much tamer recoil than a 30-06 Garand.

59 posted on 05/22/2010 4:36:52 PM PDT by USNBandit (sarcasm engaged at all times)
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To: Iron Munro

If the M-16 family was so bad with it’s 5.56 round, how come the Kalashnikov eventually went down to a similarly small round? I think Eugene Stoner knew a thing or 3 about ballistics and the terminal effects of the 5.56. The early M-16’s were plagued by changes wrought by Army Ordnance Bureau.


60 posted on 05/22/2010 5:22:32 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: JayVee
The old BAR was capable of select fire but tipped the scales at 20 lbs.

The select-fire feature was dropped from the BAR design fairly early. My Father-in-Law carried one in the Marines in Korea. Full-auto only.

61 posted on 05/22/2010 5:25:38 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: rlmorel
The officer (I think he was a USMC Major) opined that it highlighted the Soviet approach to soldiering...the magazine was more valuable than the life of the person firing the weapon...it was more important not to lose the magazine than it was to enable the soldier to reload faster.

What get's lost on threads like this about the virtues of this combat rifle or that round, is that the soldier and his rifle, combined with the training, makes for a complete weapons system.

We seem to accept this in more mechanized weaponry, but when the main component is flesh & blood we tend to forget.

62 posted on 05/22/2010 5:30:52 PM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: Screaming_Gerbil

SCAR in 6.8.

That’s all you need.


63 posted on 05/22/2010 5:44:07 PM PDT by ImJustAnotherOkie (zerogottago)
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To: too_cool_for_skool
Designated marksmen in each SQUAD with one of these babies in semi auto: HEAD SHOTS AT 600 METERS all day long...
64 posted on 05/22/2010 6:20:07 PM PDT by ExSoldier (Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on dinner. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.)
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To: SF_Redux
give them Napalm, and the delivery system for it
let them have BBQ’s

“Tough sh*t, pagans, BarBQ rules!”

hinckley buzzard; May 18, 2010
(http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2516164/posts)

Although the comment was not originally made in reference to jihadis, I would have to suggest that it applies...

;>)

65 posted on 05/22/2010 7:25:32 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
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To: JayVee
The M-4 is a cut-down M-16. In making it more compact for urban warfare, a good deal of velocity was sacrificed, further reducing the effectiveness of a marginally effective round.

Excellent point! If I remember correctly, the current 62 grain bullet will fracture at the cannelure if it impacts with enough velocity, which at least gives you two wound tracks from each hit. The M-16 will therefore have a better chance of getting the job done (in terms of terminal ballistics) in any given situation. Maybe we should at least look at putting M-4 buttstocks on flat top M-16s and split the difference (the Canadians have or had a model like that)...

66 posted on 05/22/2010 7:41:36 PM PDT by Who is John Galt? ("Sometimes I have to break the law in order to meet my management objectives." - Bill Calkins, BLM)
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To: All

Israel is transitioning over to their new Tavor rifle. It’s a bullpup configuration so it’s short enough for urban combat, but still has the longer barrel for accuracy. The interesting thing about it is the sight, which is built into the barrel. The sight and barrel are one unit. Haven’t seen one up close.

The Tavor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vj5Z5e8CUUM


67 posted on 05/22/2010 8:13:58 PM PDT by Walvoord
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To: All

Longer clip:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N7X0pvhQ4w


68 posted on 05/22/2010 8:43:29 PM PDT by Walvoord
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To: Jack Hydrazine

Precision with a stock AK is not going to happen.


69 posted on 05/22/2010 8:56:55 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: The Comedian
I really don't understand the mentality of people who buy AR-15 variants.

It's a decent platform IMO and with the right ammo it's plenty lethal out to 600 yards. The problem in the sandbox is our guys aren't using the correct ammo.

A 62 grain soft point bullet moving at 2000 fps makes a hell of a mess. The nice thing about being a civilian is that one isn't constrained by those stupid JAG rules that say only FMJ ammo can be used.

Is the .308 superior? No question it is. There are two .308 platforms in my safe. But I sure as hell wouldn't want to have to hump one up and down the mountains of Afghan land.

IMO, and no one listens to the likes of me, platoons and squads should carry a mixed bag of weapons. The majority of rifleman could have that M-4, but there should be at least a couple of 7.62 platforms on hand for designated marksmen.

And we have to get away from those stupid rules about the bullet. Replace that crappy SS-109 'penetrator' round with a soft point or hollow point. Screw the Hague Convention....

70 posted on 05/22/2010 8:58:44 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: rlmorel

You want Ka-Boom!?

Moisin Nagant. 7.62 x 54.

Ka-Boom!


71 posted on 05/22/2010 8:59:35 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: too_cool_for_skool
For later read.

Never understood the wisdom in using a round considered underpowered for deer.

72 posted on 05/22/2010 9:56:37 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: too_cool_for_skool

When did an AK-47 develope a greater effective range than an M-4?


73 posted on 05/22/2010 9:56:44 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: Lurker
IMO, and no one listens to the likes of me, platoons and squads should carry a mixed bag of weapons.

I agree but the Loggies hold all the cards. They aren't going to introduce another infantry round to the TO&E of an infantry company. Special Forces, different story.

74 posted on 05/23/2010 7:47:01 AM PDT by Tallguy ("The sh- t's chess, it ain't checkers!" -- Alonzo (Denzel Washington) in "Training Day")
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To: Eagle Eye
The milled receiver AK models are plenty accurate.

A lot of this arguement comes down to terrain. I live in hills. 300 yards is the next ridge...500 yards is the ridge after that, but you can't see it.

75 posted on 05/23/2010 8:32:47 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: sig226
When did an AK-47 develope a greater effective range than an M-4?

It's not the AK's that are the problem. The problem is the RPD and similar series of machine guns that are chambered in the 7.62 X 54R cartridge. They have a much longer effective range than our M4 rifles.

The Druganov series of 'precision' rifles are also chambered for that cartridge. While they can't hold a candle to a bolt action platform in terms of accuracy, they're plenty good enough to engage our guys outside their envelope of effective fire.

L

76 posted on 05/23/2010 8:40:31 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: gundog

And the world’s supply of AK’s doesn’t include a great percentage of milled receivers, does it?

They are well suited to peasant insurgents who don’t have or need marksmanship training, not suited to well aimed shots at even 200 yards.

But one’s mileage may vary.


77 posted on 05/23/2010 8:51:13 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Eagle Eye
They are well suited to peasant insurgents who don’t have or need marksmanship training, not suited to well aimed shots at even 200 yards.

Even the sheetmetal receivers that I have are a potent threat at 300.

78 posted on 05/23/2010 8:59:19 AM PDT by gundog (Outrage is anger taken by surprise. Nothing these people do surprises me anymore.)
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To: gundog

I have seen well trained soldiers unable to hit consistently at less than 200 yards, so yeah, the bullet may accidentally hit something at 300 years and is a potential threat.


79 posted on 05/23/2010 9:17:38 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Lurker

They’re comparing the RPD to the M-4? We have the semi auto RPD for sale where I work. While I suppose that a very large insurgent could carry it uphill along with a couple of drums, it is essentially a crew served weapon.


80 posted on 05/23/2010 6:10:32 PM PDT by sig226 (Mourn this day, the death of a great republic. March 21, 2010)
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To: Eagle Eye
I have seen well trained soldiers unable to hit consistently at less than 200 yards,

Then those are not 'well trained' soldiers. I have a sheet metal Romanian AKS rifle which will reliably put shots on man sized targets at 300 yards.

81 posted on 05/23/2010 6:25:15 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Lurker

Yeah, I’m sure that the AK’s we used were the exception and that most AKs out there are really very good rifles for 200-300 yard shots. /s

Or is it that there are *some* rifles and *some* marksmen that can do it but *most* users of the AK can’t and won’t?


82 posted on 05/24/2010 9:45:40 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Eagle Eye
Or is it that there are *some* rifles and *some* marksmen that can do it but *most* users of the AK can’t and won’t?

"Most" users of the AK are dirt ignorant peasants who haven't had a single day of formal instruction in their lives, let alone formal marksmanship instruction.

If one takes the time to properly sight in an AK you'll be surprised as hell at how far out you can reach with one. "Most" of the rest of those shooting AK's have heard all about it's legendary inaccuracy and therefore don't put enough effort in to learning the proper way to make hits at distance with one.

Who knows. Maybe your guys had some crappy shot out ones. But in my experience the 'off the shelf' stuff available to civilians here in the States is capable of much greater accuracy than people give it credit for.

It's a poor workman who blames his tools.

83 posted on 05/24/2010 9:58:19 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Lurker

Are you really trying to make the case that given equally capable shooters that the AK-47 and the M-16 would be equally effective at ranges beyond 200 meters?

Or put it this way, face to face at 300 yards would you prefer your AK over someone with an M-16 and is that a match up that you would advocate for others?

‘Cuz it seems to me that you’re trying to turn an exceptional situation into the rule.


84 posted on 05/24/2010 10:58:58 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Eagle Eye
Are you really trying to make the case that given equally capable shooters that the AK-47 and the M-16 would be equally effective at ranges beyond 200 meters?

From 200 to 400 meters, yes. Beyond that the AR platform is clearly superior.

Or put it this way, face to face at 300 yards would you prefer your AK over someone with an M-16 and is that a match up that you would advocate for others?

Preference doesn't figure into the discussion but if you insist at that range I'd 'prefer' my M1A over either. And I don't advocate that people shoot at each other at all.

‘Cuz it seems to me that you’re trying to turn an exceptional situation into the rule

Not at all. I'm simply saying that the AK is plenty accurate out to 300 yards or so in the hands of a well trained rifleman. At that distance it'll do "minute of bad guy" quite handily.

85 posted on 05/24/2010 11:03:55 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Eagle Eye
"You want Ka-Boom!? Moisin Nagant. 7.62 x 54."

Oh yeeeees. Especially the M44 Carbine. I took mine to the range last Friday...the young lady in next lane nearly wet herself when I dropped the hammer for the first time. I swore she was within a hair's breadth of throwing her little Walther P22 straight up in the air.

:-)

86 posted on 05/24/2010 11:51:07 AM PDT by jboot (Let Christ be true and every man a liar.)
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To: Lurker

To each their own, I guess.

IMO you’re asking the AK to so something it wasn’t designed to do in going for aimed shots at 300 yards.

Wait...that isn’t just my opinion, that’s a fact!


87 posted on 05/24/2010 12:27:01 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Eagle Eye
IMO you’re asking the AK to so something it wasn’t designed to do in going for aimed shots at 300 yards.

So what? If it does it, I got a nice little bonus out of my $350 purchase.

88 posted on 05/24/2010 12:36:26 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: jboot

Mine normally stops all other shooting while the others try to figure out WTF it is that I’ve got in my hands!

The first time I fired it was sorta hairy as I had bough two and used the best parts of each to make one and have one as spare so I had no idea what was gonna happen when I pulled the trigger!


89 posted on 05/24/2010 12:40:28 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (A blind clock finds a nut at least twice a day.)
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To: Lurker

“properly sight in an AK you’ll be surprised as hell at how far out you can reach with one. “

A major issue with the AK isn’t always the AK rifle itself but the crummy ammunition many of the shooters worldwide use. Russia no doubt has fresh ammo and can sight in an AK to 300 yards, but if you look at Iraq you’ll find they shoot crusted over stuff and mix-n-match of all kinds of ammo.


90 posted on 05/24/2010 12:44:07 PM PDT by CodeToad
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To: CodeToad
A major issue with the AK isn’t always the AK rifle itself but the crummy ammunition many of the shooters worldwide use.

Very true.

91 posted on 05/24/2010 12:47:13 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: too_cool_for_skool

This entire disussion is based on the idea we desire to hit, injure or kill then enemy.

That is at odds with the idea of a medal for NOT hitting, injuring or killing the enemy.

We don’t have a consistent name for the enemy, or even complete commitment to the idea we have enemies.

In half the time we have been “fighting” after 9-11-2001 the United States, had over 16 million citizens in the military, defeated Germany, Italy and Japan.

And they have stayed defeated, because we killed enemy soldiers, sailors, airmen and civilians until we achieved unconditional surrender.

Something we aren’t even close to doing, in the new America.

Since WWII about the only war we have won, where the enemy stayed surrendered was Grenada.


92 posted on 05/24/2010 12:54:27 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: truth_seeker
Since WWII about the only war we have won, where the enemy stayed surrendered was Grenada.

There were a bunch of Cubans there IIRC, but your point is well taken.

I miss Ronald Reagan.

93 posted on 05/24/2010 12:56:14 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Eagle Eye
For the most part, Mosins are so overbuilt that you don't need to worry much (except, of course, for headspace). They're a lot of gun-and a lot of fun-for $90.

Be careful...they multiply.

94 posted on 05/24/2010 6:36:21 PM PDT by jboot (Let Christ be true and every man a liar.)
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To: Eagle Eye
For the most part, Mosins are so overbuilt that you don't need to worry much (except, of course, for headspace). They're a lot of gun-and a lot of fun-for $90.

Be careful...they multiply.

95 posted on 05/24/2010 6:36:22 PM PDT by jboot (Let Christ be true and every man a liar.)
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To: Mouton
The nitwit responsible for promulgating them should be fired.

Sounds good to me!


96 posted on 05/25/2010 4:14:55 PM PDT by Iron Munro ("You can't kill the beast while sucking at its teat" - - Claire Wolfe)
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