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Arizona Pastor's Worry: Criminalization of Ministry Work (because of state's new immigration law)
Christian Post ^ | 05/26/2010 | Michelle Vu

Posted on 05/27/2010 2:13:24 PM PDT by SeekAndFind

A Phoenix-based youth pastor is worried that his ministry could face legal troubles under Arizona’s new immigration law.

“We don’t ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus,” said Ian Danley, youth pastor at Neighborhood Ministries, during a conference call with immigration reform advocates Wednesday afternoon.

The evangelical pastor said regular ministry work, such as driving teens to worship events, could be “criminalized” under the new Arizona law if a church worker knowingly transports youths who are illegally residing in the United States.

“The local community here feels under attack,” Danley said. “Recent high school graduates in my youth group are looking at what should be a bright future with little hope.”

Danley was among a group of Christian leaders, businessman, researcher, and policy experts that spoke during the Conservatives for Comprehensive Immigration Reform conference call. The leaders updated participants on how the Arizona immigration law has affected local residents and the national public opinion about comprehensive immigration reform, and how members of Congress feel about taking up the issue.

In April, Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer signed SB1070 – an immigration bill seeking the toughest laws against illegal immigrants in the nation.

Under the legislation, immigrants in Arizona are required to carry their alien registration documents at all times or face possible arrest. State police are given the power to interrogate, arrest and charge people suspected of illegally entering the country. And people are prohibited from knowingly transporting illegal immigrants.

Christian groups and leaders across the political and theological spectrum have strongly denounced the new Arizona law.

Earlier in May, conservative evangelical leaders – including Southern Baptist leader Richard Land, National Association of Evangelicals president Leith Anderson, and Liberty Counsel founder Mat Staver – endorsed an ad published in “Roll Call” urging Congress to pass immigration reform.

Faith communities throughout the nation – soon after Arizona passed its new immigration law – held prayer vigils to call on Congress to pass comprehensive immigration reform.

Presently, as many as 17 states are considering to pass Arizona-type immigration law.

“We sympathize with so many who are frustrated in Arizona. But the solution is not piecemeal enforcement that targets Latino,” said the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. “We need a better solution to make us all safe.”

To Republican lawmakers, Rodriguez said true conservatism is not preserving the white majority but propagating the ideas of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

According to a recent national survey by Public Religion Research Institute, 56 percent of the American public oppose efforts to deport illegal immigrants back to their home countries. The survey also found that three-quarters of Americans agree that, given the opportunity, illegal immigrants would work hard to earn a chance at citizenship.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aliens; arizona; illegalimmigration; ministry; pastors

1 posted on 05/27/2010 2:13:24 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

nobody is stopping them from evangelizing in MX to Mexicans.


2 posted on 05/27/2010 2:15:51 PM PDT by WOBBLY BOB ("The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants"-Albert Camus)
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To: SeekAndFind

need to tell pastors this is no immigration law


3 posted on 05/27/2010 2:16:20 PM PDT by dalebert
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To: SeekAndFind
The evangelical pastor said regular ministry work, such as driving teens to worship events, could be “criminalized” under the new Arizona law if a church worker knowingly transports youths who are illegally residing in the United States.

Horse manure! There is no connection between the text of the law (which I read in its entirety) and ministry work. This is just political rhetoric from an activist who puts worship of Obama ahead of worshiping God.

4 posted on 05/27/2010 2:16:36 PM PDT by Pollster1 (Natural born citizen of the USA, with the birth certificate to prove it)
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To: SeekAndFind

Blah, blah, balh . . .



5 posted on 05/27/2010 2:18:22 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Judas Iscariot - the first social justice advocate. John 12:3-6)
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To: Jeff Chandler

bahl?


6 posted on 05/27/2010 2:18:36 PM PDT by Jeff Chandler (Judas Iscariot - the first social justice advocate. John 12:3-6)
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To: SeekAndFind
The evangelical pastor said regular ministry work, such as driving teens to worship events, could be “criminalized” under the new Arizona law if a church worker knowingly transports youths who are illegally residing in the United States.

You mean, like harboring known felons? Or buying stolen merchandise? How about sneaking packages on board an aircraft that you didn't pack?

Our church in Austin would often ask members to take some local members to a larger city, to the Temple - which we adamantly REFUSED to do, for exactly this reason. What's wrong with refusing to aide and abeit a criminal activity?

7 posted on 05/27/2010 2:18:55 PM PDT by Hodar (Who needs laws .... when this "feels" so right?)
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To: SeekAndFind

The new law simply restates existing federal law.

I’ve never heard of anyone being charged for driving a teenager to church. When it happens, I’ll worry about it.


8 posted on 05/27/2010 2:19:36 PM PDT by marron
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To: SeekAndFind
Since when is the purpose of the church to help people to commit crimes?
9 posted on 05/27/2010 2:20:18 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: SeekAndFind
“We sympathize with so many who are frustrated in Arizona. But the solution is not piecemeal enforcement that targets Latino,” said the Rev. Samuel Rodriguez, president of National Hispanic Christian Leadership Conference. “We need a better solution to make us all safe.”

To Republican lawmakers, Rodriguez said true conservatism is not preserving the white majority but propagating the ideas of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

This is not a man of G-d, but a racist !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
10 posted on 05/27/2010 2:25:26 PM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: stripes1776
Ever since the seventies, when protestant churches began to die from irrelevance and the Catholic Church began to endure the homosexual onslaught, seminaries have been willing to admit anyone who appears to have a pulse. Intelligence above that of a cabbage is nice but not required.

The above slop is a good clear illustration of why churches are dying off--so many of their "leaders" are too credulous and stupid to function effectively in the real world.

11 posted on 05/27/2010 2:26:41 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: stripes1776
Since when is the purpose of the church to help people to commit crimes?

Well, the general principle is there are just laws and there are unjust laws. The church is NOT supposed to help the government enforce unjust laws ( e.g., give up or tell on Jews because Nazi Germany laws require citizens to do it ).

The problem with this pastor is he is incapable of differentiating between just and unjust laws. I think He believes the Arizona law is like the Nazi German one.
12 posted on 05/27/2010 2:29:02 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Part of evangelizing is teaching people to observe the law.


13 posted on 05/27/2010 2:32:06 PM PDT by stars & stripes forever ( Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness)
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To: SeekAndFind

Googled for “Ian Danley” and immigration...came up with 4,090 results. Really.


14 posted on 05/27/2010 2:33:42 PM PDT by Red Dog #1
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To: SeekAndFind
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” (“Ἀπόδοτε οὖν τὰ Καίσαρος Καίσαρι καὶ τὰ τοῦ Θεοῦ τῷ Θεῷ”) (Matthew 22:21)

Caesar is saying it is illegal for you to be in the US without documentation (visa, green card, etc). So this pastor is aiding and abeting a crime against Caesar (US law)

15 posted on 05/27/2010 2:35:42 PM PDT by SkyDancer (Those That Turn Their Swords into Plows Will Plow For Those That Don't.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Well, the general principle is there are just laws and there are unjust laws.

I've never seen anything in the Bible that would indicate Christians should ignore "unjust" laws. Perhaps you are confusing the passages that show men ignoring laws that impede obedience to God?

16 posted on 05/27/2010 2:36:55 PM PDT by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: Pollster1

First of all, under the law the police can ask for one’s ID ONLY if they are stopped for some potential or actual offense (ranging from a traffic violation to a suspect in a felony)! Normal ministry activities don’t qualify.

Second of all, this pastor needs to be set straight. You CANNOT worship both God and obama, since obama has set himself up as a god.

I hope that this pastor is not using his ministry as an excuse to harbor illegals, or to justify open borders and open immigration. That IS breaking existing law!!! The REAL solution to the immigration problem is to improve Mexico, not for America to set up a “y’all come” sign at the border and in “advocacy” centers.


17 posted on 05/27/2010 2:38:54 PM PDT by Honorary Serb (Kosovo is Serbia! Free Srpska! Abolish ICTY!)
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To: hinckley buzzard
The above slop is a good clear illustration of why churches are dying off--so many of their "leaders" are too credulous and stupid to function effectively in the real world.

Neither Protestants nor Catholics have a monopoly on inane and feel-good theology. I would say they are equally infected with the decay of sound theology. I don't know where liberation, socialist theology began, but it has distorted the thinking of many churches.

18 posted on 05/27/2010 2:40:26 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: SeekAndFind

Hey church, if you are doing something illegal, stop it!


19 posted on 05/27/2010 2:41:54 PM PDT by fish hawk (the)
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To: SeekAndFind
“We don’t ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus,”


20 posted on 05/27/2010 2:42:02 PM PDT by Hoffer Rand (There ARE two Americas: "God's children" and the tax payers)
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To: SeekAndFind
“We don’t ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus,” said Ian Danley,"

They must have heard about Jesus somewhere because so many are named after him.

21 posted on 05/27/2010 2:46:09 PM PDT by Enterprise (Dan Rather said Obama is so incompetent he couldn't sell watermelons.)
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To: Anti-Utopian
I've never seen anything in the Bible that would indicate Christians should ignore "unjust" laws

Common sense tells you that not all government are righteous. For instance, In the book of Exodus, God blessed the Egyptian women who DISOBEYED the Pharoah's law to kill Hebrew babies. See Exodus 1:8-20.

See also Acts 5:17-29. Peter told the Sanhedrin who told them to stop preaching the gospel ( the Sanhedrin was was the high court of ancient Israel ) : "We must obey God rather than man.". The principle is there.

If the 10 Commandment tells you that you should not murder, and your state tells you BY LAW that you should help them do it (As in Nazi Germany), then you are frankly in a dilemma. You either obey God's laws or disobey state laws but you cannot obey both. Peter's response in such situations : WE MUST OBEY GOD RATHER THAN MAN (Acts 5:29).

THAT is exactly what many Christians like Corrie Ten Boon faced during the second world war.
22 posted on 05/27/2010 2:47:18 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: WOBBLY BOB

I heartell that Jesus exists in Mexico too. Show them the way Pastor, the direction is SOUTH.


23 posted on 05/27/2010 2:50:24 PM PDT by aSeattleConservative
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To: SeekAndFind
Well, the general principle is there are just laws and there are unjust laws. The church is NOT supposed to help the government enforce unjust laws ( e.g., give up or tell on Jews because Nazi Germany laws require citizens to do it ).

Your analogy is flawed. No one is persecuting Mexicans. The US has a reasonable and just immigration law. It needs to be enforced. Superficial, feel-good Christians think they are being pious by helping people to break a just and reasonable law.

And Mexicans come her thinking they have a right to other people's hard earned money through welfare or just showing up at a hospital and expect others to pick up the tab. In addition there is the vast amount of crime Mexicans are committing, from petty theft to rape to murder. I think it would be getter if Mexicans began to respect the just laws of this land. And better yet if they returned to Mexico and worked to make the hell-hole they came from a better and more just place to live in.

24 posted on 05/27/2010 2:50:37 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: SeekAndFind
This is ridiculous. Mr. Danley seems to be so concerned because he's obviously ministering to a lot of illegal aliens who are committing a crime by residing in the U.S. without bothering to go through legal immigration channels.

Our immigration laws are perfectly reasonable. The illegal immigration problem has been allowed to get totally out of control due to a deliberate lack of federal enforcement. The new Arizona law that this man is so worried about is hardly draconian and as many have noted, simply mirrors federal immigration law in many respects.

If Ian Danley is working with and transporting people he knows are here illegally, he should simply stop. I suspect that Mr. Danley has chosen to minister to illegal aliens. That is his choice and I'm sure he feels morally justified in doing it. However, the Arizona law in question is hardly unjust and Danley is wrong to consistently break it based on some misplaced empathy for those that chose to enter and reside in the U.S. illegally. His concerns are misguided and based on a flawed moral premise.

25 posted on 05/27/2010 2:52:29 PM PDT by Jim Scott (re much)
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To: SeekAndFind

And I’ve never heard of the police pulling people off the church bus and handing them over to ICE. Again, when it happens, get back to me.

Mexico is in the process of imploding. There was never a better time for churches to partner with Mexican churches and to seed and grow churches in Mexico, most especially if your town is within a couple hours of the border. Mexico has become a mission field. You probably have people in your congregation capable of being your Mexico team, or teams plural.

And when and if members of your congregation get deported, or members of their family are deported, again, this is another opportunity to use that to advantage, helping them get re-situated in their home town and then through them working to start a congregation in that area.

The law is not unjust, it is not unlike similar laws the world over.


26 posted on 05/27/2010 2:52:44 PM PDT by marron
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To: SeekAndFind

When did men of the cloth stop being willing to go to jail for what they believe? Or could it be that these guys really don’t believe what they are doing is “the right thing to do” in spite of the law.

Oh, you mean they just don’t want to follow Saint Paul’s example and go to jail?


27 posted on 05/27/2010 3:06:50 PM PDT by MIchaelTArchangel (Obama makes me miss Jimmah Cahtah!)
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To: SeekAndFind
A Phoenix-based youth pastor is worried that his ministry could face legal troubles under Arizona’s new immigration law.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

I don't care what costume the lawbreakers are hiding behind; if they are breaking the law, which they obviously intend to do, they need to be prosecuted.

28 posted on 05/27/2010 3:07:34 PM PDT by meadsjn (Sarah 2012, or sooner)
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To: SeekAndFind
“We don’t ask people for their documents to come hear about Jesus,” said Ian Danley, youth pastor at Neighborhood Ministries

He shouldn't have to. That little detail should have been taken care of already at the border/entry point.

29 posted on 05/27/2010 3:19:06 PM PDT by Alex Murphy (Pretentiousness is so beneath me.)
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To: Anti-Utopian; SeekAndFind
Any law that prohibits what God commands, or commands what God prohibits, is an unjust law. We are obliged by God to disobey such laws.

That's why some people in the Bible are commended for breaking certain laws (e.g. the Egyptian midwives.)

30 posted on 05/27/2010 3:24:18 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: SeekAndFind

They need to quit whining and build a church in Mexico.


31 posted on 05/27/2010 3:25:16 PM PDT by nolongerademocrat ("Before you ask G-d for something, first thank G-d for what you already have." B'rachot 30b)
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To: SeekAndFind

Oops, I see you answered that question. Glad to see we both had the same answer!


32 posted on 05/27/2010 3:26:58 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Mammalia Primatia Hominidae Homo sapiens. Still working on the "sapiens" part.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Just think, Reverend, you’ll be able to evangelize to plenty of people in jail when you get there.


33 posted on 05/27/2010 3:28:22 PM PDT by Opinionated Blowhard
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To: 1_Inch_Group; 2sheep; 2Trievers; 3AngelaD; 3pools; 3rdcanyon; 4Freedom; 4ourprogeny; 7.62 x 51mm; ..

Ping!


34 posted on 05/27/2010 3:51:05 PM PDT by HiJinx (~ Illegal is a Crime, it is not a Race ~)
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To: SeekAndFind

“Under the legislation, immigrants in Arizona are required to carry their alien registration documents at all times or face possible arrest”

This ‘reporter’ needs to check 8 USC 1034(e) resident aliens are required to carry thier I-511 (green card) at all time.

Been that way since, what, 1940?


35 posted on 05/27/2010 5:21:01 PM PDT by ASOC (Things are not always as they appear, ask the dog chasing the car)
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To: stripes1776
Your analogy is flawed. No one is persecuting Mexicans.

I made no flawed analogy. My argument is this -- THERE ARE CASES WHERE THERE ARE UNJUST LAWS WHERE CHRISTIANS HAVE NO CHOICE BUT TO DISOBEY THEM.

Look at my previous posts in this thread and ask yourself if I ever insinuated that our immigration laws are unjust laws. I never did.
36 posted on 05/27/2010 5:47:53 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Arrest them and strip them of their tax exempt status.


37 posted on 05/27/2010 5:48:28 PM PDT by dalereed
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To: SeekAndFind
Look at my previous posts in this thread and ask yourself if I ever insinuated that our immigration laws are unjust laws. I never did.

The churches helping illegals break the law say they have a right to disobey the law. Christians do not have a right to disobey the law in this land. They have to right to change it if they can.

38 posted on 05/27/2010 6:36:10 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: Mrs. Don-o; SeekAndFind

That’s what I meant. I don’t find any room for personal definition of “unjust” laws, only disobedience of laws that obviously impede obeying God, and there is certainly no commandment or example in Scripture that justifies aiding foreign invasion or the coveting and theft of another nation’s prosperity.


39 posted on 05/27/2010 7:01:16 PM PDT by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: stripes1776
They do indeed have the right to disobey law in the sight of God, but they do not have the right to avoid consequence.

If the innocent go to prison, then God will repay. The innocent in Christ are more than willing to suffer indignity, because they know their justice will be 100-fold. The fact that this guy is trying to cash in while avoiding trouble is all the proof you need that he is a flim-flam.

40 posted on 05/27/2010 7:05:32 PM PDT by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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To: stripes1776
The churches helping illegals break the law say they have a right to disobey the law

Is this law unjust ? Of course not. Therefore helping illegals break the immigration law is WRONG. However, If there ever came a time ( God forbid ) that this country changes to a point where the choice would be between obeying a law that violates Christian principles and not obeying it, then we are duty bound NOT to obey it.

For instance, if a Christian intern were required to practice abortion BY LAW ( not yet a reality and hopefully will never be ), the Christian will have no choice but to violate it.

They have to right to change it if they can.

Or if that were not possible, be prepared to go to jail or suffer breaking it.
41 posted on 05/27/2010 7:09:50 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Anti-Utopian
I don’t find any room for personal definition of “unjust” laws

The keyword here is "personal". What is Just and unjust can be OBJECTIVELY known however based on knowledge of God's laws as given to us in scripture.

Hence, we do not personally define what is just and unjust, we determine that by appealing to what God has revealed in His word.
42 posted on 05/27/2010 7:12:09 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
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To: Anti-Utopian
They do indeed have the right to disobey law in the sight of God, but they do not have the right to avoid consequence.

My disagreement with your thinking is with the word right. No one has the right to disobey the law of the land. But a person can choose to obey or disobey. That choice is not a right. It is a personal decision. And yes, I do agree with you that a person disobeying the law will have to suffer the consequences.

The problem with our immigration laws is that the federal government chooses not to enforce its own laws. And the people paying the consequences are not the people breaking the law. The people paying the consequences are hard-working Americans who have to foot the bill for illegal aliens.

43 posted on 05/27/2010 7:17:09 PM PDT by stripes1776 ("That if gold rust, what shall iron do?" --Chaucer)
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To: stripes1776
Since all rights of this land come from the Creator, as documented in the Constitution, everyone has the right to disobey a law that disagrees with the same Creator. That you would punish someone who obeys the Creator rather than the aberrant law is your choice as well.

That said, there is nothing about the immigration laws of the U.S. that conflict with the Creator.

44 posted on 05/28/2010 1:01:25 AM PDT by Anti-Utopian ("Come, let's away to prison; We two alone will sing like birds I' th' cage." -King Lear [V,iii,6-8])
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