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USA Fielding M110 7.62mm Semi-Auto Sniper Rifle
Defense Industry Daily ^ | 6/9/2010 | Defense Industry Daily

Posted on 06/09/2010 9:10:58 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld

In this war, snipers matter in close-quarters urban fights. So does penetrating power. Accurate ranged lethality is equally important for squads in open areas, where engagement distances can easily make 5.56mm rounds ineffective. Bolt-action sniper rifles solve these problems, but can get your best people killed in close-up automatic firefights. Semi-automatic weapons have traditionally been less reliable and accurate, but offer the only reasonable approach that covers both extremes.

The result has been the emergence of a hybrid approach, on both a people level and a technical level. On the human end, militaries like the Americans and British are adopting “designated marksman” or “sharpshooter” roles in normal infantry squads, who aren’t full snipers but do have additional training and qualification. On the technical side, gun makers are fielding semi-automatic systems that offer nearly bolt-action accuracy out to 800-1000 meters, but can also be used in closer-quarters firefights. The British have hurried the L129A1 to their infantry squad sharpshooters, but the Americans have a longer running program, which is beginning to ramp up production and fielding…

The M110 is intended to replace the M24 Sniper Weapon System used by snipers, spotters, designated marksman, or squad advanced marksmen in the US Army. In 2006, the Army projected total buy of 4,492 systems. M24 orders continued into early 2010, however, and it seems likely that both will serve together for a few years.

(Excerpt) Read more at defenseindustrydaily.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 762mm; banglist; m110; rifle; sharpshooter; sniper; usarmy
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1 posted on 06/09/2010 9:10:58 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: sonofstrangelove

I’ve heard this all my life—that bolt action was more accurate than semi-auto—but no one can really explain to me why. Is it just a “thing” people just parrot—because that’s what they’ve always heard too—without any proof?


2 posted on 06/09/2010 9:13:05 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: sonofstrangelove

Basically an M-16 in 7.62 NATO caliber.


3 posted on 06/09/2010 9:14:23 PM PDT by Roklok
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To: sonofstrangelove

H’mmmm, I wonder if it will have the range of the old M110 175mm gun?


4 posted on 06/09/2010 9:14:49 PM PDT by GreyFriar (Spearhead - 3rd Armored Division 75-78 & 83-87)
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To: sonofstrangelove

The answer: An automatic revolver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_revolver


5 posted on 06/09/2010 9:14:54 PM PDT by ConservativeMind (Hypocrisy: "Animal rightists" who eat meat & pen up pets while accusing hog farmers of cruelty.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

6 posted on 06/09/2010 9:15:11 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: WKUHilltopper

you can generally get a more consistent “weld” between the barrel and the forearm with a bolt gun. Bolt guns allow you to use “neck sized” ammo which is also much more accurate.


7 posted on 06/09/2010 9:16:46 PM PDT by RC one (WHAT!!!!)
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To: sonofstrangelove

The M14 is still doing the job. I have a Springfield Armory M1A National Match in my defensive arsenal with an ART IV scope.


8 posted on 06/09/2010 9:18:43 PM PDT by Parley Baer
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To: Parley Baer

They are awesome.


9 posted on 06/09/2010 9:20:31 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld ( "Fortes fortuna adiuvat"-Fortune Favors the Strong)
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To: sonofstrangelove
Someone should invent a weapon like this . Maybe call it the M-14 .


10 posted on 06/09/2010 9:20:55 PM PDT by kbennkc (For those who have fought for it freedom has a flavor the protected will never know .F Trp 8th Cav)
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To: sonofstrangelove

Sorry, but if they’re going for 800-1000 yd hits, they need more than a 10-magnification on that 110. I certainly want one of those. Anyone know if there is a civilian version yet?


11 posted on 06/09/2010 9:20:58 PM PDT by Migraine (Diversity is great... ...until it happens to YOU.)
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To: Roklok

“Basically an M-16 in 7.62 NATO caliber.”

I believe that would be 5.56 mm NATO.


12 posted on 06/09/2010 9:21:17 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: RC one

OK, thanks!


13 posted on 06/09/2010 9:24:34 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: WKUHilltopper

I believe with a bolt action you seat can the cartridge tighter—the tolerances are necessarily greater when you are mechanically trying to blow out the shell after each firing as with a semi-auto.

At least that’s what makes sense to me. A bolt is a much simpler and cleaner design and since speed of extraction is not an issue....you have the ability to have much tighter tolerances, which equals more accuracy.


14 posted on 06/09/2010 9:26:16 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: sonofstrangelove

15 posted on 06/09/2010 9:28:24 PM PDT by NoLibZone (Liberals are right. The AZ situation is like Nazi Germany. Mexico is Germany and Arizona is Poland)
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To: AnalogReigns

Well, what you say does make sense...maybe that’s it after all.


16 posted on 06/09/2010 9:31:02 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: WKUHilltopper
I’ve heard this all my life—that bolt action was more accurate than semi-auto—but no one can really explain to me why. Is it just a “thing” people just parrot—because that’s what they’ve always heard too—without any proof?

As I've always understood it, a semi-auto has more moving parts. Each of these parts moves in multiple directions, some directions are primary movement while some are just due to mechanical tolerances. With each moving part comes variability and variability is the enemy of accuracy.

The end effect of all this variability is that each round tends to seat ever so slightly differently from the previous round. Head spacing will be slightly different. Gas pressures will be slightly different which results in slightly different functioning of the action. When fired, the firing pin doesn't strike the primer dead on either.

These points of variability and others tend to adversely effect the accuracy of a semi-auto more than that of a simpler bolt action rifle.

17 posted on 06/09/2010 9:38:44 PM PDT by fso301
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To: sonofstrangelove

7.62 is simply metric for 30 caliber... and the 7.62 X 51mm cartridge here is just slightly smaller than the 7.62 x 54 which was the Soviet rifle round up through WWII. Of course the 7.62x54 was very similar in power to our standard 30.06 cartridge of the time used in the M1 Garand.

After 50 years of pushing the smaller 5.56mm X 45mm M16 cartridge is the brass FINALLY admitting it is too small???


18 posted on 06/09/2010 9:38:52 PM PDT by AnalogReigns
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To: kbennkc
Exactly. Someone please tell me why we're spending $???,???,??? on a new 7.62mm semi-auto sniper rifle when there are already thousands of M-14s in storage, which could be refurbished for a fraction of the cost (probably) of the gussied-up AR-10? Save come money, fit them with new barrels, stocks, bipods, optics, etc., and go out and kill some scumbags.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

19 posted on 06/09/2010 9:38:54 PM PDT by wku man (Who says conservatives don't rock? Go to www.myspace.com/rockfromtheright)
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To: fso301

Thanks!


20 posted on 06/09/2010 9:49:00 PM PDT by WKUHilltopper (Fix bayonets!)
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To: WKUHilltopper

Semis have a necessarily looser chamber tolerances and parts start moving around as they function.


21 posted on 06/09/2010 9:51:31 PM PDT by omega4179 (www.jdforsenate.com)
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To: sonofstrangelove
The M110 rifle weighs 7 kg/ 16 pounds

16 lb ? That's quite a chunk to haul around.

22 posted on 06/09/2010 9:53:14 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: 1066AD

Yes, 16lbs is basically the same weight that the old BAR weighed in WWII and Korea. This weight was bitched about by the men who had to carry one, even though the fire power was great. I want to know what is wrong with the M14, which is quite accurate out to 1000 yrds and is already in the inventory.


23 posted on 06/09/2010 10:01:21 PM PDT by calex59
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To: WKUHilltopper; Roklok
I most respectfully interject here.

I interpret Roklok's post as, "Basically an M-16 [except] in 7.62 NATO caliber [as opposed to the usual 5.56mm NATO round].

Roklok, please feel free to correct me if I assumed wrongly.

Kindest regards,

Gunner

24 posted on 06/09/2010 10:04:36 PM PDT by 60Gunner (But there's this one particular harbor...)
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To: wku man

We have very few m14s left. Thank the Democrats and Clinton who destroyed MOST OF THEM in the 90s.


25 posted on 06/09/2010 10:06:29 PM PDT by Dogbert41
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To: kbennkc
Someone should invent a weapon like this . Maybe call it the M-14.

If we hadn't given away a bunch of our M-14 rifles and destroyed more, we wouldn't need the M110. However, I think it's interesting that aside from optics and accessories, we seem to have hit a plateau in the late 1950s with regard to military rifle design. This new rifle is an AR-10 redux.

26 posted on 06/09/2010 10:08:00 PM PDT by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: WKUHilltopper

The breech and chamber don’t move at all; after you close the bolt, it’s essentially a single piece that will hold the entire action still until well after the bullet has exited the barrel.


27 posted on 06/09/2010 10:08:58 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: calex59
” I want to know what is wrong with the M14, “

Using the M-14 would be an admission of incompetence, by those who "know" best

28 posted on 06/09/2010 10:10:07 PM PDT by lowflyn (He'll crack before we do.)
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To: 1066AD

16 lb ? That’s quite a chunk to haul around.
~~~
WOW,,,7 lbs less than an M-60!!!

Maybe it comes with Wheels!!!...;0)


29 posted on 06/09/2010 10:10:21 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: calex59
I want to know what is wrong with the M14, which is quite accurate out to 1000 yrds and is already in the inventory.

Top ejection is one thing.

30 posted on 06/09/2010 10:12:41 PM PDT by fso301
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To: AnalogReigns
After 50 years of pushing the smaller 5.56mm X 45mm M16 cartridge is the brass FINALLY admitting it is too small???

It's plenty effective to ranges out to 200-300 meters; in fact, a 5.56mm round out of a 16" barrel will still penetrate 1/8" plate steel at a distance of 500 meters. That will perforate a body if you strike it. It's a rather lethal round.

The issue is bullet weight versus crosswind. The 5.56mm drifts too much for accurate "reach out and touch some one" use at ranges in the 600+ meter distances. So a heavier bullet is desirable, hence the use of the 7.62mm.

Personally, I'd prefer to see designated marksmen using the awesome .338 Lapua; not a lot more kick than a 30-06, but confirmed kill ranges beyond 2400 meters. It has nearly the same lethality of the 50 BMG, but with much higher accuracy. IMHO, it's the perfect sniper/anti-sniper round, short of this:

Gotta like 1 MOA and 5000 meter range!

31 posted on 06/09/2010 10:17:35 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: WKUHilltopper

You are confused.


32 posted on 06/09/2010 10:18:28 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: fso301

Top ejection is one thing.
~~~
The brass goes to the side,,,

The top is open so it can be loaded with stripper clips,,,
(M-14)


33 posted on 06/09/2010 10:20:31 PM PDT by 1COUNTER-MORTER-68 (THROWING ANOTHER BULLET-RIDDLED TV IN THE PILE OUT BACK~~~~~)
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To: lowflyn

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2010/03/army_m14_032210w/

They are handing out more m14’s as well.


34 posted on 06/09/2010 10:21:51 PM PDT by ltc8k6
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To: calex59

Obsolete weapons such as the 1911A1 pistol and the M14 require extensive modification to make them extremely accurate. Take a really close look at the issued “mil-spec” weapon in both cases vs. the “tuned” competition version. The AR-10 and later M16 as designed by Eugene Stoner did not have the design flaws that got troops killed in Vietnam. In DCM rifle competition, the changes required to Mr. Stoner’s platform are nothing compared to what must be done to Mr. Garand’s platform to shoot tight groups. An AR only requires a barrel tube to take the sling tension off of the barrel and finer sights. The mods to the M1/M1A/M14 are far, far more extensive.


35 posted on 06/09/2010 10:25:57 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: kbennkc

sigh...Read up on the amount of armorer shop maintenance needed to maintain less that 1 moa accuracy on an M-14.

I was on a state shooting team for 3 years. M-14 is the AR-10’s b*%&h. Spec-ops have been using the SR-25 series rifles for years now. They have mucho dinero to pick any weapon they want to use. They picked an AR-10 variant over the M-14...

M-14 is a great rifle, my M1 Garand is a great rifle. For the work in Trashcanistan I’d want an AR-10 variant. Why don’t any shooters winning at Camp Perry use the M1A anymore?


36 posted on 06/09/2010 10:28:59 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: Tailback

Thanks for confirming my analysis. I was hoping not to have to get into mechanical engineering geekspeak.


37 posted on 06/09/2010 10:31:23 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: Tailback
Why don’t any shooters winning at Camp Perry use the M1A anymore?

Because they use a 5.56 with a heavier bullet.

38 posted on 06/09/2010 10:34:41 PM PDT by xone
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To: xone

Because the vastly superior inherently more accurate modern design shoots a 5.56 in it’s as issued configuration as opposed to a 7.62.


39 posted on 06/09/2010 10:39:00 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: xone

Not on the long range course. aka 600-1000 yards which since we’re talking about sniper and DMR rifles you should have considered.

Do you shoot 1000 yard matches with a 5.56? If so, you’re pretty good. Better than the AMU and USMC shooters.


40 posted on 06/09/2010 10:41:40 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: ltc8k6
Well it looks like a few upgrades for accuracy, but 15 lbs...
I used to pull guard with a 203 and I would always try to find someone else’s m-16 for duty due to the weight - this was when we were “playing” back in the states.
41 posted on 06/09/2010 10:43:33 PM PDT by lowflyn (He'll crack before we do.)
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To: MikeSteelBe
Thanks for confirming my analysis. I was hoping not to have to get into mechanical engineering geekspeak.

As you can see from the replies to my post following yours...it doesn't matter whether you know what your writing about. When it comes to the M-14 and AR-10/M16 family no amount of logic, technical expertise, or current real world experience matters. It's like talking economics with a liberal...
42 posted on 06/09/2010 10:45:20 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: WKUHilltopper

There’s several reasons, but they all cumulate in “looser tolerances of moving parts.”

Some accuracy techniques are applicable in both types of actions - eg, better barrels, with better crowns and better chambers. A technique that is sometimes used on bolt guns that probably wouldn’t be ideal in a semi-auto would be to tighten the case neck reaming diameter. In both types of rifle, paying closer attention to the chambering of the barrel, improving the stock mounting, free-floating the barrel, insuring that the barrel is co-axial with the receiver and bolt all help.

Bolt guns striving for maximum accuracy often sleeve their bolts - something that just doesn’t apply to semi-autos. Likewise, lapping lugs usually won’t make any sense on a semi-auto.

The point comes down to this: In a bolt gun, if you have the time and experience (or your gunsmith does), you can create an environment whereby the bullet is pointed down the bore in line with the bore’s centerline at the point just forward of the chamber. In the bolt gun, you can carry this to the fullest extent by such techniques as sleeving the bolt, lapping the lugs, facing the bolt, facing the receiver, etc, and then using a tight chamber, or fire-forming your brass. The result will be seen downrange, especially if you’re paying attention to your loading practice, which might include setting the bullet seating depth to use up most of the leade. Semi-autos are often shooting ammo that is uniformly loaded to a specification, not custom-made for that particular rifle.

As you try to achieve tighter and tighter groups at distance (say, 1000 yards), the importance of the ammunition loading, the quality of the components, etc all become much more important than at short ranges.

As for proof: Look at the benchrest records for accuracy. There’s no semi-auto that can come close to the current benchrest records. Here’s an example:

http://accurateshooter.wordpress.com/2007/07/09/sarver-shoots-1403-group-at-1000-yards/


43 posted on 06/09/2010 10:46:49 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: Tailback

The heavier 7.62 surely bucks wind better than the 5.56, and 7.62 is the original caliber of the AR platform. Animal hunters discovered that the .270 has a better ballistic coefficient than the 7.62. The .50 BMG is just a scaled up .30-06’, but the .416 Barret my be the most efficient long range killer.


44 posted on 06/09/2010 10:49:40 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: NVDave

And that is why Carlos Hathcock was using a bolt action Winchester M70 instead of an M14 or M16. The truth always prevails.


45 posted on 06/09/2010 10:54:57 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: MikeSteelBe

and the .260 Remington has better BC than the .270 etc...

That and $4 will get you a mocha at starbucks.

This thread started as a bash the M-110 re-adopt the M-14.

I attempted to address the fact that the M-14 is not ideal for the specified role.

It has now, in the fashion of FR, devolved into the “my —— is bigger than your —— gun post.”

I leave this thread now to the inevitable hordes of bubba fans to follow.


46 posted on 06/09/2010 10:56:23 PM PDT by Tailback
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To: MikeSteelBe
In the late 1990's, I was in a CA NG unit (2/159 MECH INF) and we had some of the last 1911's in military inventory. We had over 350 M9's also in inventory, but told Sac we would keep them on our property book, but would be turning them in unfired, so that the gaining unit could have them new.

I was the Med Plt Sergeant and the medics usually ran the pistol course. It was a great swan song firing these the last couple years for qualification. Many were stamped Singer, Colt, Ithica, and Remington(Rand).

We also had three oddball M-3's still in inventory, but only two worked. From their maintenance records, we found they had been in the armory for so long that the only reason we had them was because nobody in the state could figure out how to get them off our property book.....A quintessential Army story, eh? Anyhow, they sure come in handy at the end to fire off the surplus.

But we were talking 1911 .45's.

I almost always managed to fire expert, even with these sloppy old weapons. Almost everyone missed two on the first table, but once warmed up, they made Mr. Browning proud. Being so loosey-goosey, they did quite well when kicked in the dirt. We should look again at that whole M9 thing and other decisions made about sidearms the last 25 years.....Like a 1911 firing +P+ .40 with a staggered magazine.

47 posted on 06/09/2010 11:01:05 PM PDT by dersepp (www.waterforfighting.org)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68
The top is open so it can be loaded with stripper clips,,, (M-14)

And anything else that gravity happens to drop in.

48 posted on 06/09/2010 11:07:54 PM PDT by fso301
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To: Tailback

I was just supporting you argument with technical information. Ideology over truth is what gets liberals elected, and it keeps selling crap like Harley’s and 1911A1 pistols. I’ve been a mechanical engineer with a gun habit for 20+ years. I’m sorry if my speaking over your head offended you, but it’s guys like me that make weapons better.


49 posted on 06/09/2010 11:08:18 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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To: dersepp

AK’s and 1911’s do well dirty, but the accuracy just plain sucks. I have owned a few examples of a quality AKs chambered for .556, and it is truly “best of both worlds”.


50 posted on 06/09/2010 11:14:21 PM PDT by MikeSteelBe
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