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Americans are treated, and overtreated, to death (shut up and die, already)
Yahoo/AP ^ | 06/28/2010 | MARILYNN MARCHIONE

Posted on 06/28/2010 10:25:06 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum

The doctors finally let Rosaria Vandenberg go home. For the first time in months, she was able to touch her 2-year-old daughter who had been afraid of the tubes and machines in the hospital. The little girl climbed up onto her mother's bed, surrounded by family photos, toys and the comfort of home. They shared one last tender moment together before Vandenberg slipped back into unconsciousness.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2010electionbias; asspress; buttociatedpress; dnctalkingpoints; healthcarerationing; obamacare; pravdamedia; rationing; socializedmedicine; tortreform; yellowjournalism
You don't need no steenking medical care.
1 posted on 06/28/2010 10:25:07 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Interesting how in the period preceding the health care debate, we were told over and over again that millions of Americans didn’t receive adequate health care.

Now we’re being told that we receive too much. I guess this is to prepare us for the inevitable rationing.


2 posted on 06/28/2010 10:27:58 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia (Forcing one person to pay for the irresponsibility of another is NOT social justice.)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia

exactly.

they reduced the age when mammograms and cervical exams should be given... in order to reduce costs the government would have to pay.

death panels have already been formed...


3 posted on 06/28/2010 10:30:36 AM PDT by sten
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To: sten

It also helps with the social security situation. If you kill them off earlier, you don’t have to pay out SS.


4 posted on 06/28/2010 10:36:36 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I am thankful that my life and parting is not determined by Obamacare, but by the Living God Who created me.


5 posted on 06/28/2010 10:37:39 AM PDT by thethirddegree
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
Personally, I think the fear of malpractice suits cause doctors to overtest and overmedicate "just to be safe" and we could often do with less. However, that's a far cry from wanting the government to control the process.

IMO, tort reform would have helped to bring health care costs in line without massive federal interference.

6 posted on 06/28/2010 10:37:39 AM PDT by OrangeHoof (Washington, we Texans want a divorce!)
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To: rightwingintelligentsia
Truth is that both under-servicing and over-servicing are happening.

Often people are given too much care; i.e. too many people running immediately to the doctor for a runny nose because their employer pays for the care, so why not?

But just as often people don't receive personalized care for their real needs.

This is because health care is NOT consumer-driven. When the consumer is in the driver's seat doctors and hospitals provide efficient service, not over-servicing and/or under-servicing. But our health care has been controlled by employers and Gov't for years.

7 posted on 06/28/2010 10:37:55 AM PDT by Siena Dreaming
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To: Siena Dreaming

Some of the over-servicing you describe takes place at the lower end of the scale.

Low income people rush to the emergency room for routine complaints because they know can’t be turned away, and that the gov’t will pay.


8 posted on 06/28/2010 10:43:32 AM PDT by rightwingintelligentsia (Forcing one person to pay for the irresponsibility of another is NOT social justice.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

When you’re diagnosed with an incurable cancer - you really need to step back and say
A: Doc, if I do some treatments - how much time am I buying?
B: Of that time, will I be able to enjoy the days I have left?

I watched my brother, in Stage 4 cancer@diagnosis, live 6 months. He had 2 procedures and several chemo treatments...
About midway through the 6 months, he rode his Harley across country with his old friends (though that was tough on him). When he came back he did a few more bucket list things. Then it really took hold and they admitted him. He sat in the hospital for a few days and all they were doing was giving him Oxygen. I went down there and asked the Doctor what was going on. He said he maybe had a few days left. I had him discharged, got some oxygen tanks and morphine from the hospital pharmacy and drove him to San Antonio so he could say goodbye to his family and kids. He was only in hospice for 2 days.
My mom, on the other hand - diagnosed with incurable brain cancer at 85 years old - opted to jump right into hospice, because she was only given 3 to 4 months to live. She did receive some radiation to keep her from having painful seizures...but the rest was just comfort care. I had the honor of being with her, at her home for the last two months of her life. We had laughs, meals, walks and many of her friends visited frequently. The hospice folks were awesome, very spiritual and helped my mom and the whole family cope with a very difficult situation.

Sometimes, treatment will help prolong a bit - but if I were diagnosed with something incurable - I’d definitely ask the hard questions about quality of life for my remaining days.


9 posted on 06/28/2010 10:44:31 AM PDT by nagdt ("None of my EX's live in Texas")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Considering the source (Yahoo/AP) changes the meaning and significance of an article.

In this case it just tells me this article speaks for the guy who said “Don’t waste expensive medical care on a old person. Just make him comfortable and let him die.”.


10 posted on 06/28/2010 10:51:28 AM PDT by RoadTest (Religion is a substitute for the relationship God wants with you.)
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To: RoadTest
In this case it just tells me this article speaks for the guy who said “Don’t waste expensive medical care on a old person. Just make him comfortable and let him die.”.

Shut up and die already.

;^]

11 posted on 06/28/2010 10:53:20 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

My Mom who died at 90 peacefully in her sleep in HER Bed.

Refused to go to Docs. She was a nurse all her life.
I took care of her for 15 years, yes I’m very proud that she had a great life. (Or the best I could give her)

I am dealing with the thought of going into the hospital.
I had an MRI last MON, found out I have a hematoma next to my left ear.(f-ing ringing is driving nuts). I had a problem yesterday and called my HMO. they told me to go to the ER. I decided to stay home. Who knows what is going to happen. I am going to have another MRI in a month, I’m gauging it by the ringing. If it stops I will be ok. But trust me, if I can stay out of the hospital I will.


12 posted on 06/28/2010 10:56:58 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: Marty62
But trust me, if I can stay out of the hospital I will.

And that should be your decision, not some panel of affirmative-actioned bureaucrats.

13 posted on 06/28/2010 11:00:12 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: nagdt

I was just recently hospitalized for a couple days to an emergency. Nothing super serious and no surgery for which I am grateful for and am on the road to recovery.

When I was talking to the doctor about getting discharged, he told me that I was going to be on some pricey pills for a while. No surprise there. While we were talking, he mentioned there was some kind of cancer medication (pancreatic?) that cost like $300,000 a pop and might buy someone 2 or three months.


14 posted on 06/28/2010 11:00:23 AM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
I have a little experience in this area. A lot more than I would choose to have. So I have some questions this article doesn't answer.

Notice in the touching first example, the pharmacist who endured 2 rounds of chemotherapy. They are quoting her sister, not her husband, about the decisions made in her treatment. Why is that? The sister says they might have decided to decline treatment...NOT the patient OR her husband. The sister has no say in this matter. The decisions were made by the patient, a well-educated woman with a medical background, and her husband after consulting with her doctors. The doctors did not force the treatment on her. Is the sister speaking out here because she disagrees with the decisions the sibling made?

In my experience, almost all cancer patients want to fight the cancer aggressively and they want whatever treatment gives them the best hope of recovery. Only after there is no hope of winning the battle do patients decide to discontinue treatment. I have never known a doctor to force a patient to continue treatment against a patient’s wishes. That may happen, but it is a very rare thing.

I agree with those who think this article is meant to support the progressives in their push to limit treatment for the elderly. Thirty years ago, Colorado governor, Dick Lamm, gave a speech stating the elderly had a ‘Duty to Die’. It is a position deeply held by progressives, and one the MSM will do its level best to push...all in the name of ‘compassion’, of course...

15 posted on 06/28/2010 11:01:31 AM PDT by goldfinch
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To: nagdt

Thank you for sharing your stories. The questions you are willing to ask are the right questions.

Every time a healthcare story pops up Freepers scream “death panels”. I didn’t get that from this particular story. A lot of folks don’t want to be burdens on their families for very little gain or negative results on their health and life. I think many terminally ill folks are not given the facts about their situation and are just told to take this drug/treatment and to keep chugging along without giving folks the information they need to make a true informed decision. I don’t want the opposite to happen either where the plug is pulled on someone who doesn’t want it pulled or refuses to give up hope.

It’s one thing when a “death panel” decides your fate for death by offering no treatment, another thing when the healthcare system keeps you around for whatever reason ($$$) and another when you decide your treatment based on the right information.


16 posted on 06/28/2010 11:11:03 AM PDT by Mr Fuji
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To: nagdt
Hospice care is a genuine blessing.

Knowing that something someday will eventually get me, the image of spending my last days or moments tied down to machines or in a drugged coma has never had much appeal. BUT that life belongs to me and my friends and family, NOT to some government drone.

Funny how it's Godless Liberals who think that if they eat the right stuff, exercise compulsively, and go in for regular plastic surgical tune-ups they will live forever, but at the same time have no compunction about killing off the rest of us to save the "environment". They are truly psychotic.

17 posted on 06/28/2010 11:13:15 AM PDT by katana (For what is an Irishman ? But a .......)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; ExTexasRedhead; nutmeg

NAZI CARE DELUXE is all obamacare is. Share with all you know.

Dems write off seniors
http://frontpagemag.com/2010/06/17/elderly-and-expendable/

NO DOC FIX FOR MEDICARE
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/jun/18/senate-fails-spare-doctors-medicare-cuts/

Seniors Must Scrutinize Medicare Mailer
IBD Editorials ^ | June 8, 2010 | NEWT GINGRICH AND NANCY DESMOND

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article/536677/201006081815/Seniors-Must-Scrutinize-Medicare-Mailer.aspx

“Your guaranteed Medicare benefits won’t change — whether you get them through Original Medicare or a Medicare Advantage plan.”

Report: Bill would reduce senior care Medicare cuts approved by House may affect access to providers
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/14/AR2009111402597.html

Health Reform’s Hidden Victims Young people and seniors would pay a high price for ObamaCare.
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203517304574306303720472842.html

Mayo clinic stops taking Medicare patients
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=517004

Seniors’ coverage options dwindle as Medicare Advantage programs close shop
http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/bus/stories/DN-advantage_22bus.ART.State.Edition1.3c912a9.html

Weighing Medical Costs of End-of-Life Care
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/23/health/23ucla.html?_r=1&ref=business&pagewanted=all

Survey in New England Journal of Medicine Says 46% of US Doctors Will Quit If Obamacare Passes

http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2798380/shocking_survey_in_new_england_journal.html?cat=75

Slashing Medicare to pay for healthcare reform an ugly shell game
Dr. Stuart M. Shapiro,
July 27, 2009

http://www.mcknights.com/slashing-medicare-to-pay-for-healthcare-reform-an-ugly-shell-game/article/140656/

Obamacare Impact on Seniors

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Reports/2010/05/Obamacare-Impact-on-Seniors

March 28, 2010 Health law’s heavy impact Paul Guppy
http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2010/mar/28/health-laws-heavy-impact/

The Senate Health Bill: Ordinary Americans Have Been Warned

http://blog.heritage.org/2010/03/17/the-senate-health-bill-ordinary-americans-have-been-warned/

Obama Names Rationing Czar to Run Medicare
by Terence P. Jeffrey
05/26/2010

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=37186
Under Obamacare, IRS Has Power to Penalize Americans Who Refuse to Buy Required Insurance
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/2807832/under_obamacare_irs_has_power_to_penalize.html?cat=75
obamacare taxes on working families
http://www.atr.org/obamacares-taxes-working-families-a4745

Electronic Records to costly says doctors

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/08/health/policy/08health.html?fta=y

Employer health insurance plans likely to be altered after all

http://www.telegram.com/article/20100612/NEWS/6120334/1116


18 posted on 06/28/2010 11:14:13 AM PDT by GailA (obamacare paid for by cuts & taxes on most vulnerable Veterans, retired Military, disabled & Seniors)
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To: sten

Last article like this I read said the men were getting to MANY PSA test.


19 posted on 06/28/2010 11:15:25 AM PDT by GailA (obamacare paid for by cuts & taxes on most vulnerable Veterans, retired Military, disabled & Seniors)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

That was my point.My HMO said go, I decided against it. It was my choice.


20 posted on 06/28/2010 11:15:25 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: nagdt
Sometimes, treatment will help prolong a bit - but if I were diagnosed with something incurable - I’d definitely ask the hard questions about quality of life for my remaining days.

God bless your Mother, Brother, and you! It is hard to lose a loved one that way.

My Dad had Alzheimer's and passed away in April 2007. Hospice was the BEST! HE remained home with my Mom (then 83 YO)and my sister. He passed away at home holding my Mom's hand. No extraordinary measures for that disease but my older brother is fighting Cancer right now and even though the treatments are expensive he seems to have won round one. His latest scan shows total remission. He is only 62.

21 posted on 06/28/2010 11:16:33 AM PDT by OldMissileer (Atlas, Titan, Minuteman, PK. Winners of the Cold War)
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To: Marty62
That was my point.

I was agreeing with you.

22 posted on 06/28/2010 11:17:21 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: nagdt

Both my parents died of lung cancer, they were far advanced, and opted for no treatment, just hospice and pain meds. 1 lived 3 months, 1 lived 4. Buying an extra couple of weeks was not worth the medical problems of chemo.


23 posted on 06/28/2010 11:19:21 AM PDT by GailA (obamacare paid for by cuts & taxes on most vulnerable Veterans, retired Military, disabled & Seniors)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Ok.


24 posted on 06/28/2010 11:22:40 AM PDT by Marty62 (marty60)
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To: GailA

Exactly. Dying on your own terms. It’s hard to watch your loved one’s go -— but being in the hospital with tubes and respirators and crappy floor nurses and then dying...is 10x worse.
Sorry about your parents. I don’t have a mom or dad anymore. Never gets easier.


25 posted on 06/28/2010 11:23:11 AM PDT by nagdt ("None of my EX's live in Texas")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

This should be from the Onion but it’s not. The nation and world can hardly get any more insane.

Perhaps we should give up and die at this point. This place is hopeless.


26 posted on 06/28/2010 11:23:58 AM PDT by Soothesayer (We are completely ******!)
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To: OldMissileer

I wish your Brother the best! Mine died at 56. He was my best buddy! He lived his life to the fullest which was likely why he died so young. I had to hide the cigarettes from him at the end. ;) He couldn’t breathe but he wanted to smoke.


27 posted on 06/28/2010 11:27:00 AM PDT by nagdt ("None of my EX's live in Texas")
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

I have a chronic condition and need a ct scan. I spent 4 hours on the phone last week trying to get it scheduled. Almost the first question I was asked by each person I spoke to was, “are you on hospice?” I have a chronic condition my new doctor thinks can be fixed, I am not dying!!!!!


28 posted on 06/28/2010 11:28:10 AM PDT by kalee (The offences we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: Mr Fuji

This article is about a 2 year old child.

It is EVIL to give up on a child’s life.


29 posted on 06/28/2010 11:33:50 AM PDT by Soothesayer (We are completely ******!)
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To: Soothesayer
Nice try, I figured someone wouldn't actually read the article and respond to me. Did you read the article? The mother died not the child, as I don't know of any 2-year old pharmacists! The child was afraid to visit her mom tied up the machines and tubes.

I'm not advocating euthanasia, to kill people at random, give up on terminally ill kids, kick and torture animals, etc. All I was saying that adults should be given the facts on their terminal health condition and they decide whether they want to be treated or not.

From the article: "Vandenberg, 32, died the next day." and "Instead, Vandenberg, a pharmacist in Franklin, Mass., had endured two surgeries, chemotherapy and radiation for an incurable brain tumor before she died in July 2004."

30 posted on 06/28/2010 11:42:39 AM PDT by Mr Fuji
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To: Mr Fuji

Ahhh crap I responded to the wrong article. I need to stick to one window from now on.

Whatever, I just don’t care anymore.


31 posted on 06/28/2010 11:46:36 AM PDT by Soothesayer (We are completely ******!)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
One problem with rationing or even giving societal pressure that it is better to give up than to fight is that those who make a futile fight now often provide information to doctors on how to treat disease so that the incurable today becomes the curable next year and the the routinely treated the following year.

Remember when open heart surgery was considered a risky, experimental and likely-to-fail-anyway procedure? Now a quadruple bypass is almost routine. If there weren't some that were "overtreated" for their almost certainly fatal heart disease a couple of decades ago, arterial blockage would still be a death sentence today.

If Obamacare isn't reversed, what is now the best medical care will likely stay the best you can get, or even "progress" to beyond what you are allowed to have anymore.

32 posted on 06/28/2010 11:50:39 AM PDT by KarlInOhio (I am so immune to satire that I ate three Irish children after reading Swift's "A Modest Proposal")
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To: Soothesayer

No problem, FRiend!


33 posted on 06/28/2010 11:53:09 AM PDT by Mr Fuji
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To: kalee
Don't let the bastards grind you down!
34 posted on 06/28/2010 11:56:41 AM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

The question is who decides who gets more medical care, and who doesn’t.

You think death panels will decide?

Wrong. Death panels will determine political policy.

That policy will be interpreted by statistical analysts.

Those analysis will be implemented by...

Software.

“No one” will deny you healthcare.

“The computer” will simply present “allowed options” in your case.


35 posted on 06/28/2010 12:07:05 PM PDT by Talisker (When you find a turtle on top of a fence post, you can be damn sure it didn't get there on it's own.)
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To: Talisker
You think death panels will decide?

Eric "Honest Discussion about Race" Holder will decide.

36 posted on 06/28/2010 12:15:41 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

There is truth in this article. There is a point in treatment thatit is futile and torturous. At that time it is wise to have someone step in and give more information. If the Chemo has next to zero impact on people on stage three or stage four cancer, perhaps that is good information to know. Perhaps it is time to regroup and have a good end.

The other issue here is that many of these patients are lab rats for residents and interns and they will throw everything at them.

There is a time to stop and learn to die.


37 posted on 06/28/2010 12:43:57 PM PDT by Chickensoup (The Acting President....is an incompetent puppet of Soros.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum; rightwingintelligentsia; sten; taxcontrol
If you go to this National Right to Life website

http://www.nrlc.org/euthanasia/willtolive/Stateslist.html

you can download a "Will to Live" in accordance with your own wishes and in accordance with your particular state laws.

They call it a "Will to Live" (rather than a Living Will) because it is oriented toward strengthening the right to legitimate care including nutrition and hydration always, (so that nobody can choose "for" you to be killed via starvation/dehydration like Terri Schiavo) --- and yet is customizable so that you can explicitly decline futile or burdensome treatments which are really of no use when you are truly dying.

Please check it out. Everybody needs a document of this kind.

Plus everyone needs to talk with their "nearest and dearest" about what they sincerly want.

This NRLC "Will to Live" document would be an excellent basis for the discussion, and can be fully tailored to what you believe is right.

38 posted on 06/28/2010 12:46:54 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("One can't complain," said Eeyore. "I have my friends. Somebody spoke to me only yesterday.")
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To: Chickensoup
There is a time to stop and learn to die.

Sounds like you should take your own advice.

39 posted on 06/28/2010 12:55:14 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum ("The only stable state is the one in which all men are equal before the law." -- Aristotle)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Sounds like you should take your own advice.

No when one has worked with patients whose deaths were being prolonged through horrific means, usually as someone’s learning experience, one takes a different view.


40 posted on 06/28/2010 3:14:54 PM PDT by Chickensoup (The Acting President....is an incompetent puppet of Soros.)
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To: nagdt
The whole point of this issue is to keep the choice in the hands of your brother or mother and not the gubbermint. There is no way any bureaucrat should make QOL decisions, but that is exactly what Obamacare is going to force on all of us.

This is why it is evil and must be opposed.

41 posted on 06/28/2010 3:32:43 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: kalee
The reason they asked about being on Hospice is that when Hospice takes over a case they typically d/c all treatment orders other than palliative care, and will not pay for diagnostics like a CT scan. Sometimes people survive in spite of Hospice.
42 posted on 06/28/2010 3:39:44 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: hinckley buzzard

I know, but it seems odd that I have never been asked this before only since Obamacare came to be.
My mother died in Jan I know all about hospice. Hospice rations care and the more people you can shift to hospice the less care you need to provide. My mother died in Jan I know all about hospice.


43 posted on 06/28/2010 6:45:45 PM PDT by kalee (The offences we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: sten
Back in my thirties I was sent for a mammogram due to a lump in the breast...The reading of the test suggested removal or biopsy...I was sent to a surgeon and told him I didn't want a biopsy as I have had lumps in my breast for years and they get larger and smaller due to the time of my cycle...he said OK but sent me for another one during a different time in the menses. The lumps were benign cysts and he accepted the no biopsy I stated...I am 70 and still have both...mammograms and readings are not always accurate.

I had a very close friend that had to have a breast removed, it wasn't found with a mammogram, but she found it herself in self examination....

Sometimes too much relying on a test is not the best way to go...like seat belts, good as they are, they also give you a false sense of security when driving and for some makes their driving a little less safe. imho

The proper name for my problem was benign cystic breast disorder. After menopause, they all disappeared...

Sorry to you guys that are not involved in this problem, but for women it may be of interest....

44 posted on 06/28/2010 7:55:49 PM PDT by goat granny
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