Posted on 07/01/2010 11:01:17 AM PDT by Beelzebubba
A blizzard of paperwork could be about to hit numismatics.
Passage by Congress of the national health care legislation has had an unintended consequence to the nation’s coin collectors, vest-pocket dealers who buy and sell coins, and larger dealers who are frequent buyers of coins that collectors periodically liquidate as they trade up their collections for better coins, or simply sell to take a small profit or loss.
What has happened is that effective Jan. 1, 2012, the whole system of giving and receiving Internal Revenue Service 1099 forms will be turned on its head and all persons (including corporations) who are in business will now have to give 1099 tax reporting forms for coins and other goods that they sell as well as buy.
The responsibility for issuing forms kicks in at $600 for coins or bullion – not a very high level and one that has already started sounding alarm bells. It doesn’t matter in what form payment is made, whether cash, check, credit card, or Yap stone money, the $600 threshold applies.
There’s a bill introduced by Rep. Dan Lungren (H.R. 5141), which has gathered over 80 members of Congress as co-sponsors to repeal this section. Evidently, however, the drafters of the provision think there is a $17 billion loophole that this plugs.
The Industry Council for Tangible Assets is alerting member dealers and the public at large in the hope that some sense of outrage will lead to a ready modification before the law becomes operational in 2012.
Form 1099 is used to report independent contractor income, income from dividends, income from other things – and is one of the reasons why children receive tax bills for work or labor or services performed.
Section 9006 of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Public Law 111-148, signed into law by President Obama this spring) turns 1099 forms into reporting forms not only for independent contractor’s income – what they have long been used for – but also to show sales, gains and losses on purchases and sales of goods as part of a trade or business.
The section reads (in relevant part) “SEC. 9006. EXPANSION OF INFORMATION REPORTING REQUIREMENTS. (a) IN GENERAL. – Section 6041 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended by adding at the end the following new subsections:
‘‘(h) APPLICATION TO CORPORATIONS. – Notwithstanding any regulation prescribed by the secretary before the date of the enactment of this subsection, for purposes of this section the term ‘person’ includes any corporation that is not an organization exempt from tax under section 501(a).
‘‘(i) REGULATIONS. – The secretary may prescribe such regulations and other guidance as may be appropriate or necessary to carry out the purposes of this section, including rules to prevent duplicative reporting of transactions.’’
(b) PAYMENTS FOR PROPERTY AND OTHER GROSS PROCEEDS. –
Subsection (a) of section 6041 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 is amended –
(1) by inserting ‘‘amounts in consideration for property,’’ after ‘‘wages,’’ (2) by inserting ‘‘gross proceeds,’’ after ‘‘emoluments, or other’’, and (3) by inserting ‘‘gross proceeds,’’ after ‘‘setting forth the amount of such.’’
The property section means that if B. Max Mehl was selling coins to another major dealer of that era, a 1099 would have to be issued. When he bought from the public, the same thing is also required. The “report” does not necessarily measure profit or loss, but it does show activity.
The old exemption against corporations is also gone. If you buy or sell more than $600 of coins, or whatever, from, to or with a bullion dealer, for example, you have an obligation under the new law to issue 1099s.
Sounds to me they are tracking gold collector coins. Best hide them.
Baloney.
The purpose of the takeover of health care was to gain control of every aspect of American life.
The more time you force people to spend on IRS paperwork, the less time they have for driving around in their SUVs.
Ex.: I buy $700 worth of stuff from Staples this year. They claim it as inbcome. I claim it as a business expense...but only showing the numbers...not the party. Each of us has a receipt of the transaction.
The only reason for this 1099 would be to show the parties involved....hence...and audit via computer analysis.
Likely, it also gives them access to your credit cards.
If I am not misinformed, it’s not a $600 sale, it’s anything over $600 in sales over the course of a year.
The blizzard of paperwork this is going to require will swamp the IRS. I think we should also send copies of the 1099s to all of our Congresscritters who voted for this monstrosity.
Sounds like a case for silver, small gold coins or possibly palladium.
I would expect that cash transactions would still occur as taxes and evasion increases. Use cash and wear a disguise at the next coin show.
Keep track of those that own gold in case gold and ammunition become the only currency worth a damm.
Keep track of those that own gold in case gold and ammunition become the only currency worth a damm.
Hmmm, My gold eagle says $50 on it.
I'll give you 60 fer it and you can make a quick $10 profit.
THERE is the “purpose” of this intrusion and IRS boondoggle - THEY (and who are “they” ????) “think” they are closing a 17 billion dollar loophole (ie, avoiding taxes) on the closet economies.... But “they” also refuse to tax or record cashier checks (untaxed and unreported illegal alien money) going back to Mexico at the rate of several billions per month.
Or so I've heard.
Tax revolt, coming up.
Seems I've heard this predicted in some ancient writings somewhere...
BTW, 666 can be shown to represent the #9 (a very magical number) which is the number of digits of the US Social Security numbering system.
Yup. Overwhelm the system. Where have we heard that before?
;)
I do books for a Maytag dealer.
Does this mean that every time he sells a washer & dryer that I have to issue a 1099 at the end of the year for that customer?
Watch out for the $10000 declaration limit.
I hate government, esp out of control government
...other way around; the customer that pays him over 600 bucks might have to issue one.
Yep, and you'll have to have their SSN or PIN to do that as well as a form they fill out giving you permission to do so.
I think it applies to business transactions, not
retail sales. You’ll have plenty of work tracking
every business transaction and identifying which
ones meet the $600 or greater annual amount.
The same burden falls on the businesses doing
transactions with your business.
Wow, they are REALLY punishing Goldline, huh?
Oh, and anyone who wants to take the advice to not purchase gold in paper, but actually possess the gold itself. Nice tracking of who has what.
Since this isn’t for taxing purposes, it’s obviously for TRACKING purposes.
This isn’t related to only coins and gold. The $600 threshold applies to all good and services.
The small business owner making their usual purchase of supplies and paying employees but also hiring the gardener, cleaning service or painter for small, occasional work. Making bulk purchases of office supplies or paying for vehicle repairs or service.
There is going to be a mammoth increase in paperwork.
Please correct me if I’m wrong.
The blizzard of paperwork this is going to require will swamp the IRS. “””
The blizzard of paperwork will also swamp all bookkeepers in the country.
I do books for 2 small businesses, altho I am retired.
They both often SELL something that exceeds $600.
Getting all kinds of information, including SOCIAL SECURITY numbers from a person that is buying a WASHER & DRYER from the appliance dealer will stop that sale in it’s tracks. He might get around it by selling each piece individually, but this will still be a big problem. I don’t see customers being eager to give up their SS numbers. We have been told all of our lives to be very careful of whomever gets that information.
Both my clients use their trucks in as many as 5 counties. EVERY time they buy gas for the truck-—I would need all the proper info for a 1099, as the whole year’s purchases would easily amount to more than $600 at any one of the gas stations. With the predictions of $7 or higher per gallon gas, those thresholds will be met very early in any given year. I cannot just submit a 1099 to “Chevron” because these gas purchases are made on the gas credit card. There are many, many locations of where that card is used.
This is a total nightmare.
There will be a might cry from the enviros when they get a clue about how many trees will have to be sacrificed for printing all these 1099’s, also.
How about office supplies?
How about phone costs?
How about every dinner your salesmen buy for a client?
How about all the hotels & motels your salesmen use?
How about every airline ticket they use?
This is beyond stupid.
When I caught wind of this earlier this year, I did alot of thinking about how I was possibly going to be able to track all this kind of info, & I just cannot. I post info AFTER my clients have done their transactions. I could not possibly backtrack.
This will put more small businesses out of existance & will put more people on the unemployment line. Including me- there won’t be any bookkeeping to do.
Yes, and it also means that your customer (If the washer is more than $600)has to issue a 1099 to you.
It’s amazing how something this profoundly stupid, costly, and difficult to comply with has gone virtually unnoticed.
Maybe the shock of it will jolt a few of our fellow citizens out of their Obamaniac stupor.
As of now, it doesn’t include transactions with corporations, etc., but now it will extend to all sales transactions. So if I sold something to a shop, they would send a record of the transaction to the IRS; which would want their capital gains tax.
Either that, or entire markets will go entirely underground and cash-only. More likely the latter. :-)
This bill removes the exception for corporations I believe...
Could this be preparing the way for a VAT?
It does; that’s what I was trying to say.
I guess I'd better hurry and try to make the deal with you while it's still worth something. Last time I checked APMEX, gold was down -$46.
BUT WAIT A MINUTE!! I recall that the “healthcare bill” doesn’t have a severability clause, so if one item is repealed the whole thing is gone.
Anyone else remember this?? If so, is it true?
The wording above says ‘SELL as well as BUY”.
I think it goes BOTH ways.
SO—EVERY customer has to report their purchases?
Groceries for the family?
We already keep separate track of sub-contractors who do work for us—such as a crane company which does lifts to rooftops for Air Conditioning or Heating systems (The other client is a Heat/AC contractor). I issue the proper 1099’s each year for those.
I am more worried about gasoline—office supplies—under the various expenses we record.
This article indictes I also have to issue 1099’s to all our customers!!!!
They are not going to be willing to give us all their private information.
The refusal of customer regarding this kind of paperwork will be in the 99% range, IMO.
6+6+6=18, 1+8=9
That's how it's done by Chinese at least.
They've got that covered by planning to plant trees and sell the carbon credits:
The purpose of the form is to track how much money was paid to a particular business or indivdual. The purchaser of the washer and dryer may have to issue a 1099 for the money paid to the vendor, but the customer doesn't receive a 1099 for purchasing a product.
Yes.
Or if your hairdresser gets over $600 from you in a year you have to get her employed identification number or social security number to file a 1099.
We do most of our shopping for groceries at the same store. The $600 mark is easily eclipsed in the space of 4 or 5 weeks. I suppose that means we all need to store every damn cash register receipt for that kind of establishment. Seriously, this needs to be clarified or repealed quickly. A 1099 for income is normal. Issuing one to track sales is asinine and intrusive. Consumers make those purchases with income that has already been taxed. Businesses track the sales as part of gross sales, but only pay taxes on net income.
We do most of our shopping for groceries at the same store. The $600 mark is easily eclipsed in the space of 4 or 5 weeks. I suppose that means we all need to store every damn cash register receipt for that kind of establishment. Seriously, this needs to be clarified or repealed quickly. A 1099 for income is normal. Issuing one to track sales is asinine and intrusive. Consumers make those purchases with income that has already been taxed. Businesses track the sales as part of gross sales, but only pay taxes on net income.
And what about the 30 million illegals? They won’t be able to buy anything that costs more than $600?? Does this include rent? Cash won’t help unless the selling party is willing to break the law.
I will not comply with his law. If it means I never again buy or sell anything that costs $600 or more, so be it. I think that would be an excellent boycott that ALL patriotic American could sign onto. (We might excempt guns.)
When the big box retailers, high end clothiers, Sears, Home Depot, Lowes, car dealsers (which Obama now owns) see that no one is buying anything over $600 this will be repealed.
Or, if not, ‘lets roll’.
This is an absolutely astounding, amazing invasion of our privacy. And, it is ALREADY the law of the land. Just waiting for Obama's boys to make the detailed regulation for it. SICKENING.
This could be a serious trigger. I think this law, if enforced as it is being described, would shrink the economy at an incredible pace, it would compound the problem of identity theft, it would set many ordinary businesses completely against the government and create a culture of casual tax-avoidance ala Greece.
It could very well be the straw that breaks the camels back and sends one or more states into open rebellion or secession.
CWII PING!
That's basically how it works. Below is a video skit from PBS on another property of the #9.
Google search on ancient beliefs concerning the number nine:
This is an absolutely astounding, amazing invasion of our privacy. And, it is ALREADY the law of the land. Just waiting for Obama's boys to make the detailed regulation for it. SICKENING.
This could be a serious trigger. I think this law, if enforced as it is being described, would shrink the economy at an incredible pace, it would compound the problem of identity theft, it would set many ordinary businesses completely against the government and create a culture of casual tax-avoidance ala Greece.
It could very well be the straw that breaks the camels back and sends one or more states into open rebellion or secession.
CWII PING!
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