July 4th -- Happy "Presbyterian Rebellion" Day!

Calvinism in America ^ | 1932 | Loraine Boettner

[aruanan]

but also due to the fact that Calvinist theology gives the most logical base for democratic ideas...

But, sadly, also the most logical base for the most loony religious ideas. As I've told the kids, don't trust a religious movement that calls a rigid, control freak, multiple murderer who is the origin of their theology a man of God.

[raynearhood]

Just to be clear, we're talking about John Calvin here, right?

For further clarity, these multiple murders that he is supposed to have committed - is the the people that were condemned to death by the Geneva Council (a civil body) for conspiracy to commit murder and attempted murder while Calvin was part of the council; or was it the one man that was executed in Geneva after being condemned to death by Lyons, Vienne, and the Geneva Council which was headed by Calvin's political enemies at the time after Calvin left the council?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Pretty similar...

(100%) 1: Presbyterian/Reformed
(84%) 2: Congregational/United Church of Christ
(73%) 3: Anglican/Episcopal/Church of England
(71%) 4: Baptist (Reformed/Particular/Calvinistic)
(68%) 5: Eastern Orthodox
(62%) 6: Lutheran
(48%) 7: Roman Catholic
(44%) 8: Methodist/Wesleyan/Nazarene
(40%) 9: Church of Christ/Campbellite
(37%) 10: Seventh-Day Adventist
(24%) 11: Baptist (non-Calvinistic)/Plymouth Brethren/Fundamentalist
(19%) 12: Pentecostal/Charismatic/Assemblies of God
(17%) 13: Anabaptist (Mennonite/Quaker etc.)

[AnalogReigns]

Practically any figure in the strict and brutal 16th Century (when virtually no one recognized religious tolerance or freedom) can be called a “rigid, control freak” today, and Calvin was never accused, even by his worst enemies of the day, of murder—so you are simply lying about him, sorry.

The Genevan City Council, after months of trials and legal deliberation did execute one man for heresy (Servetus), after consulting with the other Protestant cities and authorities for advice (they all said execute him). Servetus had previously been condemned twice by Roman Catholic courts to death for the same religious offense.

Do we execute heretics today? Of course not, but, that was standard law from the 16th Century and before, everywhere in Europe. That doesn’t make Calvin any “murderer” any more than your local prosecuter who successfully pursues a death penalty case is a “murderer.”

[aruanan]

Practically any figure in the strict and brutal 16th Century (when virtually no one recognized religious tolerance or freedom) can be called a “rigid, control freak” today, and Calvin was never accused, even by his worst enemies of the day, of murder—so you are simply lying about him, sorry.

any figure in the strict and brutal 16th Century
You're using situational ethics. Besides, Calvin said of Michael Servetus, years in advance of his capture and execution, that if he made it to Geneva, he wouldn't make it out alive. That's premeditation. He first tried to have him killed by informing the Catholic Church on his whereabouts. That's using a secondary means to try to accomplish his primary objective, but it's still attempted murder.

Calvin was never accused, even by his worst enemies of the day, of murder
I see you're using the Bill Clinton approach, "It depends on what the meaning of "is" is." Calvin, a supremely vain individual who confused his own musings with a revelation from God, was pissed off at Servetus's annotated criticisms of his Institutes and set about to have him put to death. It doesn't make any difference if he used the Catholic Church to do it or a council of his own bailiwick, so to speak--he deliberately set out to put an enemy to death and did so in one of the most brutal ways possible, a slow fire with green wood.

That doesn’t make Calvin any “murderer” any more than your local prosecuter who successfully pursues a death penalty case is a “murderer.”
Again, more specious equivalency and special pleading. It sounds quite a bit like the intellectual gymnastics Muslims go through to excuse Mohammed or Mormons go through to excuse Joseph Smith.

[Aggressive Calvinist]

“Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. All great men are bad men.” Acton said that. Usually when it is quoted the third sentence is omitted.

[Christian_Capitalist]

You're using situational ethics. Besides, Calvin said of Michael Servetus, years in advance of his capture and execution, that if he made it to Geneva, he wouldn't make it out alive. That's premeditation.

Servetus said that all Trinitarian Christians were "sorcerers" who should be burnt at the stake, every single one of us.

If someone came to my town for the purpose of raising genocidal insurrection against all Trinitarian Christians, I certainly hope that the town sheriff would do something about it.

On to your next slander. OH, WAIT, that's the only argument against Calvin you ever had. (Never mind that cheap, dishonest slanders against the person of John Calvin, do nothing to change the clear Truths of Biblical Predestination which he and Augustine -- another imperfect Christian -- quite rightly preached).

[aruanan]

(Never mind that cheap, dishonest slanders against the person of John Calvin, do nothing to change the clear Truths of Biblical Predestination which he and Augustine -- another imperfect Christian -- quite rightly preached).

You're begging the question and your capitalization underscores that.

[Christian_Capitalist]

You're begging the question and your capitalization underscores that.

Uh huh.

And sometimes a fine cigar is just a fine cigar. I often capitalize whatever words I would emphasize if I were speaking, regardless of orthographic rectitude.

Sorry, Dr. Freud.

[Gamecock]

BTTT!

[wmfights]

Thank you for the ping. What a great reminder of how our Christian faith was instrumental in the creation of our country.

[P8riot]

Funny how when people have a high view of scripture and acknowledge the sovereignty of God in ALL areas of life, the result is liberty.

Conversely when scripture is watered down and God is reduced to an impotent being knocking helplessly on the "heart's door" hoping that it will be opened, the results are a society that will accept the intrusions of government placidly.

[suzyjaruki]

Thank you for pinging me to this thread dear Gamecock!

I tried to read a CNN (business) article this morning 100 Great Things About America but quit reading right away. Depressing. What a contrast between what our founders thought was great and what present day Americans think is great!

I am uplifted because of this post and the comments of celebrants who know what to celebrate.

[Calvinist_Dark_Lord]

Just makes me want to go out and burn some heretics at the stake in celebration! </sarcasm>

(got any suggestions as to who? :^D)

[PAR35]

I did a little googling and found that it was 57% Episcopalian, 23% Congregationalist, 21% Presbyterian,3% Quaker

That just accounts for 104% of the total. Math skills seem to equal theological knowledge here.

[PAR35]

(100%) Presbyterian/Reformed
(89%) Congregational/United Church of Christ
(73%) Baptist (Reformed/Particular/Calvinistic)
(58%) Anglican/Episcopal/Church of England
(54%) Eastern Orthodox
(49%) Lutheran
(40%) Methodist/Wesleyan/Nazarene
(39%) Roman Catholic
(38%) Church of Christ/Campbellite
(38%) Seventh-Day Adventist
(32%) Baptist (non-Calvinistic)/Plymouth Brethren/Fundamentalist
(10%) Pentecostal/Charismatic/Assemblies of God
(10%) Anabaptist (Mennonite/Quaker etc.)

[P8riot]

Why do I need a system of points to codify a belief if it is evident from the bible?

That system of points was published as a refutation of the heretical 5 points of Arminian Remonstrance, and are a summation of the judgements rendered at the Synod of Dort in 1619.

It is unfortunate that most folks view Calvinism in context of the 5 points, when in fact Calvinism can be summed up in one. Namely that God completely saves sinners, without any of our help. Some of us just don't realize that we didn't have anything to do with our own salvation. That is solidly Biblical.

[esquirette]

I love Boettner too. The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination, I believe is his work. Excellent stuff.

[lupie]

We have two infants in our small church’s nursery named Calvin. :)

[lupie]

You three, on this site, were the means by which I was first really exposed to the Reformed Faith

Obviously, I am not one of these three, and I don't do a lot of Reformed apologetics on FR because there are so many more knowlegeable than I am. I have, however, been much involved in forum apologetics and it is nice to know that the Lord does work through this even though mostly all that you get is nasty comments and bad attitudes. Praise God that He led you to Truth!