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'Muslim science' fiction
NY Post ^ | July 10, 2010 | Rich Lowry

Posted on 07/10/2010 2:35:04 AM PDT by Scanian

In the 16th century, astrono mer Taqi al-Din built one of the world's great observato ries in Istanbul. It rivaled that of pioneering Danish astronomer Tycho Brahe -- while it lasted.

"Taqi al-Din's observatory was razed to the ground by a squad of Janissaries, by order of the sultan, on the recommendation of the Chief Mufti," Bernard Lewis writes in his book "What Went Wrong?" "This observatory had many predecessors in the lands of Islam; it had no successors until the age of modernization."

NASA Administrator Charles Bolden caused a furor when he revealed that President Obama had directed him "to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science . . . and math and engineering."

This shouldn't be hard to do, so long as Bolden is well-versed in accomplishments rising out of the Middle East many centuries ago. It gave us what we know as Arabic numerals, although they originated in India.

(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: backwardness; clashofcivilizations; ignorance; islam; nasa
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1 posted on 07/10/2010 2:35:09 AM PDT by Scanian
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To: Scanian

So, should we give them moon rocks with which to perform their stonings?


2 posted on 07/10/2010 2:43:24 AM PDT by donmeaker ("Get off my lawn." Clint Eastwood, Green Ford Torino)
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To: Scanian

The Arabs had nothing to do with the invention of the modern decimal place-value system and the concept of zero that replaced the cumbersome Roman numeral system, and changed mathematics as we know it today. All they did was copy them from the Indians, and convey to the rest of the world, claiming as their own inventions.


3 posted on 07/10/2010 2:54:39 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: James C. Bennett

Go, JCB

Tell us more.


4 posted on 07/10/2010 2:58:52 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: Scanian

Muslims seem to have an odd conception of the Big Bang theory.


5 posted on 07/10/2010 3:03:03 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Barack Obama, the Coleman Francis of presidents.)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009

More?

Many of their other “inventions” and “discoveries” were basically extrapolations of prior work of the Greek, Hindus and Persians, and others, from manuscripts that ended up in their hands after Europe purged their versions during the Dark Ages.


6 posted on 07/10/2010 3:04:20 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: James C. Bennett

Many of their other “inventions” and “discoveries” were basically extrapolations of prior work of the Greek, Hindus and Persians, and others, from manuscripts that ended up in their hands after Europe purged their versions during the Dark Ages.

Gee, to hear Obama tell it, the Muslims have invented about nearly everything in the world that you can think of, right?

Remember his speech in Cairo? Remember the long list of Muslim inventions? Nearly every one of those seemed spurious and laughable to me because in my reading of history I don’t recall any Muslim inventions at all. I have heard over and over that they invented algebra, but I think that was taken from the Greeks — am I correct?

And now, we need to help the Muslims with their rocket technology — that is to say, we need to help them learn how to shoot rockets that land on top of our heads instead of just using jumbo jets next time — is my interpretation correct?


7 posted on 07/10/2010 3:14:08 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009

Very much so!


8 posted on 07/10/2010 3:16:13 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: James C. Bennett

how can anyone, With half a brain doubt that Obama is a Muslim?

His father was a Muslim.

His stepfather was a Muslim.

His religion in Indonesia is clearly listed as Muslim.

Dr. John Drew, who knew him well at Occidental College, said he knew him as “a gay passionate Marxist” and a Muslim who roomed three times with Pakistani Muslim male roommates — never a hint of her girlfriend, a date, a prom, or anything else.

Remember when it was reported in the New York Times that Barack Hussein Obama could recite the Arabic call to prayer in a perfect Arabic accent with a big smile on his face???

Well, that article has been scrubbed.

I wonder why?

Know any other politicians who can recite the Arabic call to prayer? I don’t.

Ever see any interviews of his roommates? Ever notice that the first one is now 47 years old, lives in Seattle, teaches “theater arts”, and is still single? Want to bet that this man is a homosexual too? But you will never never never see any MSM in investigation of this roommate or any of the others

Just like you will never see any MSM. reporting that NASA’s new “main concern” is to help Muslim countries with their science and technology which is currently nonexistent — somehow, incredibly, insanely, it is now our job to help Muslim countries feel better.

Weirder and weirder, curiouser and curiouser, stranger and stranger.


9 posted on 07/10/2010 3:23:40 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: Scanian

All you have to do is take a look at the following quote to know that the Obama administration and the entire United States has now gone insane:

“to reach out to the Muslim world and engage much more with dominantly Muslim nations to help them feel good about their historic contribution to science . . . and math and engineering.”


10 posted on 07/10/2010 3:24:37 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: Scanian

This is from the linked article:

This shouldn’t be hard to do, so long as Bolden is well-versed in accomplishments rising out of the Middle East many centuries ago. It gave us what we know as Arabic numerals, although they originated in India. It gave us algebra and the rudiments of trigonometry.

It gave us medical pioneers in the 10th and 11th centuries. (A significant proportion of these scientists and physicians were Christians and Jews, Lewis notes — a fact Charles “Bling” Bolden had best keep to himself.)

It’s wonderful to feel good about the work of Ibn Sina of Bukhara, who compiled an indispensable medical encyclopedia before his death in 1037, but it raises the question of what Muslim science has done for us over the last millennium or so.

The Muslim world would be better served by a frank discussion of how so much of it came to be sunk in backwardness and ignorance, although NASA’s administrator is not the natural person to lead it (nor, if he’s as smart as advertised, will he volunteer for the task).

Historian David Landes puts it starkly: “The vast bulk of modern science was of Europe’s making, especially that breakthrough of the 17th and 18th centuries that goes by the name ‘scientific revolution.’ Not only did non-Western science contribute just about nothing (though there was more there than Europeans knew), but at that point it was incapable of participating, so far had it fallen behind or taken the wrong turning.”

The short version of the story is that in the battle between science and religious obscurantism in the Islamic world, obscurantism won in a rout. Landes recounts that when the Muslims conquered Persia in the seventh century, the commander on the ground was forbidden to distribute the vast collection of captured books and scientific papers. Word came down from on high: “Throw them in the water. If what they contain is right guidance, God has given us better guidance. If it is error, God has protected us against it.”

Read more:

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/opinion/opedcolumnists/muslim_science_fiction_x5Pc3oA6SIRH4FXfciuNsL#ixzz0tH24EeAj


11 posted on 07/10/2010 3:28:01 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009

Is an interview with this Dr. John Drew online somewhere? That was a good article. I am also convinced he is gay. What I don’t understand is why no one steps forward with information. Or maybe I do understand — pure survival instinct?


12 posted on 07/10/2010 3:29:57 AM PDT by Old_Grouch (63 and AARP-free. Monthly FR contributor.)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009

He also claimed that the Arabic, Islamic call to prayer is the ‘most beautiful sound’ one could ever hear, or so I’ve read from threads here and beyond.


13 posted on 07/10/2010 3:36:53 AM PDT by James C. Bennett
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To: Old_Grouch
In response to your question, this is one item that I have in my files. I should make a blog or a website but I believe that the denial of service attacks would instantly be tremendous -- that is to say if you say anything bad about Barack Hussein Obama your website and server will be instantly shut down by Internet attacks from people who mildly disagree with me. I cannot understand why Dr. John C. Drew is not on every single news Channel, news magazine, and newspaper. He sat down with the guy for hours I believe several times and now reports to us what he saw and heard at that time. Isn't this big news? Isn't this worthy of reporting? Isn't this someone everyone in America should see? But every time I mention it on free Republic people ask me to what I am referring. Anyway, here is one link: Look at this

Obama Espoused Radical Views in College [advocated revolution]


Dr. John Drew PhD : --- who knew him very well as a gay passionate Marxist.

http://www.breitbart.tv/the-b-cast-interview-was-obama-a-committed-marxist-in-college/

Dr. John C. Drew, a grant writing consultant in Laguna Niguel, Calif., tells Newsmax he met Obama in 1980 when Obama was a sophomore at Occidental College in Los Angeles. Drew had just graduated from Occidental and was attending graduate school at Cornell University.

During Christmas break, Drew says he was at Grauman-Boss’ home in Palo Alto when Obama came over with Mohammed Hasan Chandoo, his roommate from Pakistan.

“Barack [Obama] and Hasan showed up at the house in a BMW, and then we went to a restaurant together,” Drew says. “We had a nice meal, and then we came back to the house and smoked cigarettes and drank and argued politics.”

For the next several hours, they discussed Marxism.

“He [Obama] was arguing a straightforward Marxist-Leninist class-struggle point of view, which anticipated that there would be a revolution of the working class, led by revolutionaries, who would overthrow the capitalist system and institute a new socialist government that would redistribute the wealth,” says Drew, who says he himself was then a Marxist.

“The idea was basically that wealthy people were exploiting others,” Drew says. “That this was the secret of their wealth, that they weren’t paying others enough for their work, and they were using and taking advantage of other people. He was convinced that a revolution would take place, and it would be a good thing.”

Drew concluded that Obama thought of himself as “part of an intelligent, radical vanguard that was leading the way towards this revolution and towards this new society.” ..."

Referring to Obama’s quote from “Dreams of My Father” that he associated with Marxist professors, Drew says, “What he’s not saying is that he was in 100 percent total agreement with those Marxist professors.

When you understand that, Obama’s later associations and policies make more sense, including why he was taken in by Rev. Wright’s ideology.”

14 posted on 07/10/2010 3:41:12 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: James C. Bennett

Yes. And not only that, but he could recite it perfectly, in Arabic, with the perfect Arabic accent.

I guess everyone just feels that he likes to speak in Arabic, with no deeper meaning — or could it be that he was born a Muslim raised Muslim and will die a Muslim?

No one wonders why hasn’t been to church for 18 months?

No one wonders why he wants us to help Muslim countries only, using NASA, to feel better about themselves?

No one wonders why he had to cover up all the Christian symbols at Georgetown University when he gave a speech there? Who in the world would even think of such a thing? How would this even occur to any politician unless that politician was a Muslim and didn’t want to be photographed with any Christian symbols showing in the background?

Didn’t the Egyptian Minister of Defense recently announced that Obama had confessed to him in their private meetings that he was a Muslim?

The list just goes on and on — but I think I’ve listed enough for the moment.


15 posted on 07/10/2010 3:45:52 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009

“I was a little Jakarta street kid,” he said in a wide-ranging interview in his office (excerpts are on my blog, www.nytimes.com/ontheground). He once got in trouble for making faces during Koran study classes in his elementary school, but a president is less likely to stereotype Muslims as fanatics — and more likely to be aware of their nationalism — if he once studied the Koran with them.

Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it’ll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”

Moreover, Mr. Obama’s own grandfather in Kenya was a Muslim. Mr. Obama never met his grandfather and says he isn’t sure if his grandfather’s two wives were simultaneous or consecutive, or even if he was Sunni or Shiite. (O.K., maybe Mr. Obama should just give up on Alabama.)

http://select.nytimes.com/2007/03/06/opinion/06kristof.html?_r=1


16 posted on 07/10/2010 3:51:52 AM PDT by dennisw (History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid - Gen Eisenhower)
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To: Scanian

The only “scientific accomplishment” that the cult of hate (i.e., Mohammedism) is to invent new and inhumane ways to kill and maim people who they don’t like.

Where are the PUBs in Congress screaming about NASA’s new mission:”To engage in nonsense, to blindly go where 0bambi sends us.”? Cut all funding until NASA returns to its original mission. Where?

Silence.... crickets


17 posted on 07/10/2010 3:52:17 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009
"they invented algebra"

Probably just gave it a catchy name. Just like Al Cohol.

18 posted on 07/10/2010 3:52:20 AM PDT by Paladin2
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To: NTHockey

“The only “scientific accomplishment” that the cult of hate (i.e., Mohammedism) is to invent new and inhumane ways to kill and maim people who they don’t like.”

The cell phone triggered bomb... but even that is in doubt...


19 posted on 07/10/2010 4:07:56 AM PDT by PIF (They came for me and mine .. now it is your turn..)
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To: Paladin2

The real mathematicians probably were exterminated
by Islam at the Hindu kush (slaughter).


20 posted on 07/10/2010 4:10:50 AM PDT by Diogenesis (Article IV - Section 4 - The United States shall protect each of them against Invasion)
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To: dennisw
Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as “one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset.”

Having heard that sound myself many times in Iraq, I can assure you there is nothing "pretty" about it. It's damned creepy, actually.

21 posted on 07/10/2010 4:16:14 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater ("Get out of the boat and walk on the water with us!”--Sen. Joe Biden)
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To: Scanian

This article is not very good. It repeats by insinuation the Galileo myth; with one exception, it fails to point out forcefully that the “achievements” of Islam in these countries were mainly the product of the Christian cultures and people they overran; the Arabs didn’t create algebra....in fact, virtually nothing attributed to Islamic culture was created BY Mohammadans....and then it repeats the post-Enlightenment canard about the “Enlightenment” somehow being responsible for modern science...


22 posted on 07/10/2010 4:20:45 AM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: James C. Bennett

Actually, during the barbarian (Germanic tribes) invasions, many of the original Classical manuscripts existing in Europe had simply been destroyed or lost, not “purged.” The Classical works were still available in Byzantium, but they were lost during the Islamic invasions starting shortly after Mohammed’s invention of his cult in the 7th century.

One of the bright lights in the Dark Ages was (pre-Islamic) Spain, where a monk, St. Isidore of Sevilla, wrote a compendium of “all human knowledge” in the 7th century, including quotes from Aristotle, although most of the original works of the Classical thinkers were lost by that time.

One of the reasons that the Muslims always boast about Islamic Spain is that Spain, as Rome’s closest and most important colony, actually had still retained seats of learning at the time of the Muslim invasions in the 8th century; the Muslims simply took these over. Since most of the original Muslim rulers of Spain were recently Islamicized peoples from places such as Syria and Persia, rather than ignorant Arabs, they still retained remnants of their learned past (the pre-Islamic Persians were particularly noted for astronomy) and were able to take advantage of the Christian and Jewish scholars already working in Southern Spain.

Of course, as Islam consolidated, it became more and more hostile to learning, since Islam is fundamentally anti-rational at its core.


23 posted on 07/10/2010 4:23:34 AM PDT by livius
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To: James C. Bennett
Much of everything is based, in part, on that which went before, and presages that which will be found in the future.

This is not news!

It must be noted that the rationale for knocking down Taqi's observatory had little to do with science.

Taqi is reputed to have used his tower to examine astrological events with the purpose of improving his predictions. Alas, that failed ~ he missed out on such things as a major Ottoman military defeat, the Black Death, etc.

According to one reference this allowed someone to convince the Sultan to knock down the tower and save money for further military pursuits elsewhere without distraction.

At the moment our own Sultan is knocking down the (metaphorical) towers at Cape Canaveral, and to a degree that's allowing him to spend more money on his war in Afghanistan (NOTE: "his war" isn't necessarily the same as "our war").

Makes me wonder if somebody was using NASA for astrology eh!

24 posted on 07/10/2010 4:27:03 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: donmeaker

LOL. Maybe send our guys up there spray paint the moon into a permanent crescent shape.


25 posted on 07/10/2010 4:28:00 AM PDT by Mere Survival (The time to fight was yesterday but now will have to do.)
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To: achilles2000
Hmm ~ first time I've heard anyone seriously argue that Hindus, Buddhists, Mithrists and various other pagans living in countries conquered by the Arabs were actually Christians.

That's where "zero" and algebra started.

To the West, in Egypt, trigonometry had been developed by the ancients who were certainly not Christians ~ ask Moses about that part!

The early Moslem conquests involved Syria and the Levant, Egypt and much of North Africa which were technically Christian. The big battle between Islam and Christianity occurred much later than the first few centuries.

Spain's history is far more complex than anything that can be covered in a paragraph, but suffice it to say it too had succumbed to the total economic and social collapse occasioned by the arrival of the Dark Ages in 541 AD.

26 posted on 07/10/2010 4:35:00 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Scanian
Q: Do you know why there are no muslims in "Star Trek"?

A: Because it's set in the future...

CC

27 posted on 07/10/2010 4:38:30 AM PDT by Celtic Conservative (ostende mihi pecuniam!)
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To: Scanian
I have and am currently reading a very good book, "The Closing of the Muslim Mind" by Robert R Reilly. It is about a crisis of intellect that the Islamic World suffered between the 9th and 11th Centuries of our current era (AD / CE) that it has never recovered from.

It appears (I am still reading) that it became a heresy against Islam to use reason and intellect to explain the natural world since the entire justification of this religion was an utter submission to Allah in total suspension of intellect. This combined with the concept that everything is explained and all the rules are laid out in the 12th Century Sharia Law leaves little wiggle-room for intellectual expansion.

28 posted on 07/10/2010 4:49:16 AM PDT by SES1066 (Cycling to conserve, Conservative to save, Saving to Retire, will Retire to Cycle.)
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To: Scanian

Gotta give the muslims credit for something... no one makes a better suicide bomb vest.


29 posted on 07/10/2010 4:55:59 AM PDT by pnh102 (Regarding liberalism, always attribute to malice what you think can be explained by stupidity. - Me)
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009
Weirder and weirder, curiouser and curiouser, stranger and stranger.


I agree with that

30 posted on 07/10/2010 4:57:05 AM PDT by BobP (The piss-stream media - Never to be watched again in my house)
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To: SES1066

I’ve read some things like that myself elsewhere. Apparently it had to do with the rediscovery of Greek philosophy around the time of the Crusades. The medieval Church responded with Scholasticism, which allowed that reason and faith could coexist. The Muslim scholars (some guy named al-Shafi or something like that, among others) pretty much tossed out reason and said “faith only!” It does explain a lot about why the Islamic world has places that might as well still be the year 1200.....


31 posted on 07/10/2010 5:03:33 AM PDT by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: muawiyah

Most of the lands overrun by the Muslims in the “Golden Age of Islam” were Christian...North Africa and the Middle East. Persia is probably the most significant exception. The Muslim attack on what we call “India” today came much later (beginning at the end of the 12th century - and it was genocidal in its ferocity).

As for achievements, you seem to have missed the word “mainly”. The point was, and is, that Islam has always been culturally parasitic, but a parasite that ultimately destroys its host culture.

Here is a link to an article by a historian at Northwestern that you might find interesting: http://www.mmisi.org/ir/41_02/fernandez-morera.pdf

You may also find this of interest (a letter from an Assyrian software entreprenuer attempting to educate Carly Fiorina): http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm

Finally, the phrase “the Dark Ages” was a propagandistic phrase coined by the poet Petrarch to exalt classical antiquity in the service of the Renaissance. Serious historians understand that the Middle Ages were far from dark and produced a great deal of technological progress, among other things. The demise of the Western Roman Empire was hardly a bad thing.


32 posted on 07/10/2010 5:16:03 AM PDT by achilles2000 ("I'll agree to save the whales as long as we can deport the liberals")
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To: muawiyah

“(NOTE: “his war” isn’t necessarily the same as “our war”)”

Speaking of that, if he is such a good Muslim, why is he at war with Muslims?

This seems to be a flaw in the story about him being a closet Muslim, unless someone can explain that.


33 posted on 07/10/2010 5:35:11 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: achilles2000
the Arabs didn’t create algebra....in fact, virtually nothing attributed to Islamic culture was created BY Mohammadans....and then it repeats the post-Enlightenment canard about the “Enlightenment” somehow being responsible for modern science...

Some Muslims were very creative in the architecture for their mosques and the very artistic tiles they designed and fired for them. Muslims also had a hand in making the Damascus steel used in their superior swords during the Crusades. The other "Islamic sciences" has been debunked. They appropriated from superior cultures in India and Persia. 

Muslims were not scientists and the Egyptian Pyramids were not designed/engineered/built by blacks as some Afro-centric charlatans like to teach in America

34 posted on 07/10/2010 6:02:13 AM PDT by dennisw (History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid - Gen Eisenhower)
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To: Scanian

As a learned Community Organizer Obama knows how to keep the blacks in the ghetto agitated by telling them how great they are and how many things they have accomplished.

Obama is doing the same to the Muslims. Namely, tell them how great they are so they remain agitated and opposed to the USA.

A conservative’s natural instinct is to solve problems, while Obama’s natural instinct is to create problems. When we understand that is Obama’s agenda we can thwart it.


35 posted on 07/10/2010 6:12:36 AM PDT by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: dennisw

You will not convince any one any thing. There are many here are so insecure about their own beliefs they tirelessly look under rocks to find fragments that might undermine their beliefs.

As with the Obama administration, Facts are irrelevant


36 posted on 07/10/2010 6:17:45 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... The winds of war are freshening)
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To: livius

a “wish I knew this before” bump
interesting. wish I had your memory and education.


37 posted on 07/10/2010 6:20:29 AM PDT by Taffini ( Mr. Pippen and Mr. Waffles do not approve and neither do I)
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To: dennisw

Even their architecture was taken from other more-advanced pre-Islamic societies in the Middle East. Don’t forget that these were cultures that had produced things such as the Hanging Gardens of Babylon (which were long gone by the rise of Islam, although Baghdad, Syria and Persia still had beautiful buildings and urban centers).

Mohammed’s Arabs had virtually nothing prior to their rampage. They were tent-dwelling nomads, and everything they appropriated, even in the middle east, was produced prior to the rise of Islam. The conquest varied only in how long it took the Muslims to destroy these other cultures and reject the things they initially seized from them.


38 posted on 07/10/2010 6:31:39 AM PDT by livius
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To: Scanian
"This observatory had many predecessors in the lands of Islam; it had no successors until the age of modernization."

Or, more accurately, "This observatory had many predecessors in those lands conquered by Islamic armies (or mercenaries paid for by Muslims). After the process was complete and the flames of genius of those civilizations were snuffed out by the invaders and their occupation, nothing similar was seen until it was reinvented in places free of Muslim domination."

And how many centuries will it take for all those modern marvels in the United States, like NASA, to be replicated elsewhere?

People wonder when we're going to see Muslim suicide bombers in the U.S. blowing up things, a mall here or a theater there. But a bomb is effective only to the degree that it strikes terror or that it takes out something important to the enemy. What if the bomber is placed so as not to take out things but to take out institutions, fundamental building blocks of the society? Take out enough of them and the whole thing will collapse more effectively than if one had used thousands of bombers in hundreds of cities--a nation that believes in itself can mobilize against a threat but a nation whose institutions are destroyed or hobbled or otherwise made ineffective (see the Gulf oil disaster as a good example) is no longer a nation, just another vast tract ready to fizzle out into wasteland like the Middle East in the centuries between Mohammed and the present.
39 posted on 07/10/2010 6:45:10 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: achilles2000
Whatever you and other art historians think of the term "Dark Ages" the fact is it began within a specific small segment of time associated with two major volcanic eruptions ~ one of them quite near on Iceland, and the other in the Indonesian archipelago.

It literally became dark, all sunsets were red for many decades afterward, plant growth withered in Northern and Western Europe, and a good deal of the event was reported in the British chronicles of that day (SEE: King Arthur, et al).

Europe's economy collapsed for roughly the next 500 years, and China's for the next 300 years. Things weren't all that good for several centuries later either.

All you need to understand how a bunch of un-educated guys dressed in last year's rags were able to move out of Arabia and conquer Damascus is note that even Byzantium hadn't paid its troops in over a century when the legions met the guys from Mecca.

The early Moslems did most of the conquering with Byzantine armies and Byzantine navies ~ who they paid!

40 posted on 07/10/2010 6:50:38 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: DontTreadOnMe2009
Many of their other “inventions” and “discoveries” were basically extrapolations of prior work of the Greek, Hindus and Persians, and others, from manuscripts that ended up in their hands after Europe purged their versions during the Dark Ages.

That makes it sound as though there was a transfer of manuscripts from Europe to the Muslims during the Dark Ages; rather, what was lost to Europe during that time remained in the hands of the conquerers of those Middle Eastern (and other) societies.
41 posted on 07/10/2010 6:51:38 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: livius

Even if the Muslims took advanced architecture ideas from conquered peoples at least they executed well and built impressive mosques. Their tiling work is beautiful and impressive. One of the few things of beauty I see in Muslim civilization

It seems that the populations lived in misery but great expenses and efforts were made to build glorious mosques for their fake Allah and their false prophet


42 posted on 07/10/2010 6:55:31 AM PDT by dennisw (History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid - Gen Eisenhower)
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To: Scanian
NASA; politics; satire
43 posted on 07/10/2010 6:57:50 AM PDT by Flag_This (Real presidents don't bow.)
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To: muawiyah
The early Moslems did most of the conquering with Byzantine armies and Byzantine navies ~ who they paid!

Yes, that's true.

Also, North Africa itself had long supplied mercenaries to other states or kings, and hiring an army was quite an acceptable practice in all of those societies. The first Muslim armies that invaded Spain were actually mercenaries hired by a Visigothic king to defeat his rivals. Needless to say, he was one of the first people killed, and then the Muslims simply pushed their way into Spain from the Mediterranean coast.

Nobody at the time understood the fact that this new cult meant that hiring North African mercenaries was no longer a good idea...

44 posted on 07/10/2010 7:07:49 AM PDT by livius
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To: Scanian

They have the best cutlery in the uncivilized world!!


45 posted on 07/10/2010 7:10:01 AM PDT by djf (They ain't "immigrants". They're "CRIMMIGRANTS"!!!!)
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To: muawiyah
All you need to understand how a bunch of un-educated guys dressed in last year's rags were able to move out of Arabia and conquer Damascus is note that even Byzantium hadn't paid its troops in over a century when the legions met the guys from Mecca.

The early Moslems did most of the conquering with Byzantine armies and Byzantine navies ~ who they paid!


The Bedouins of the Arabian Peninsula had long served as mercenaries for both Rome and Persia in their internecine conflict. It was the advent of a plague originating in Africa that weakened both Rome and Persia to the extent that they didn't need/couldn't afford these mercenaries who, organized by Mohammed under the banner of Islam, took advantage of the weakened North African/Mediterranean world and swept through it like a plague, concentrating not on rule but on plunder (look at the letter back to Caliph Omar at central command, so to speak, listing all the houses and other stuff to be had in Alexandria: "I have captured a city from the description of which I shall refrain. Suffice it to say that I have seized therein 4000 villas with 4000 baths, 40,000 poll-tax paying Jews and four hundred places of entertainment for the royalty"), not too distant from when Muawiyah, your namesake, the first Arab governor of Palestine, was made the first Omayyad Caliph of Damascus.
46 posted on 07/10/2010 7:11:19 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: aruanan

My understanding is that nearly all of this the Muslims took from the Greeks or the Hindus.

Wrong? Right?


47 posted on 07/10/2010 7:22:47 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: BobP

Great GIF


48 posted on 07/10/2010 7:28:05 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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To: aruanan
There were always plagues, but the world economy had been in freefall since 541 AD. The Plague of Justinian started about then, of course, but the volcanos did their job in 535 AD and destroyed the Northern and Western European economies. The civilizations around the Mediterranean began suffering and finally their economies faltered.

For a variety of reasons the people working the caravans from Petra to Mecca to Medina had remained relatively isolated from these other devastating events, or, most likely, they were affected equally but didn't realize it due to their normally deep level of poverty and their physical isolation from the Mediterranean world.

There are interesting debates regarding the degree of European depopulation. First of all no one doubts that millions died from the plague and whatever the weather anomaly was that gave Western and Northern Europeans an incentive to burn almost every piece of furniture, parchment or other burnable in a short period from 535 to 541. Secondly, back in the days before unemployment insurance, modern machinery, food surpluses, trucks, trains, cars etc. it didn't take much of a disaster for darned near everybody near it to die if only from simple starvation.

Thirdly, there are "secondary diseases" that take the opportunity to kill under these conditions.

Whatever, the death rates were different in different places. The Eastern Empire lost just under half its people. The Western Empire probably lost over half along the Mediterranean and more like 90% in the NW.

The Arabs in the peninsula didn't know anything of this.

BTW, the invasion of the Mediterranean civilization didn't begin until AFTER Mohammad was dead and AFTER Petra was converted. You should note the name of that place ~ it's in Jordan. They appear to have gone cash at the beginning of the disaster and could pay hard money for whatever the Moslem commanders needed.

If the Arabs had been Roman Catholic Monks the outcome would have been the same!

49 posted on 07/10/2010 7:30:49 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Paladin2

“they invented algebra”
Probably just gave it a catchy name. Just like Al Cohol.

Good one !!!


50 posted on 07/10/2010 7:31:11 AM PDT by DontTreadOnMe2009 (So stop treading on me already!)
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