Posted on 07/12/2010 9:07:55 AM PDT by Nachum
The Knesset Law Committee approved the first step of a new conversion-to-Judaism law – yet another step in an issue that has been controversial since the establishment of the State. It stipulates, for the first time, that conversions must be according to Jewish Law.
The committee, by a 5-4 vote, allowed the latest conversion proposal to be voted on in the Knesset for its first reading. If the bill passes, it then returns to the committee for emendations, if necessary, followed by two more readings in the Knesset. If it passes these stages, it becomes law.
(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...
Is this for aliyah or “just” marriage?
I also understand that conversions of existing Israeli citizens can be done locally under this, instead of dealing with the disaster that is the central Rabbinical.
Not sure. It sounds like all conversions.
Hmmm.
I kinda oppose it for aliyah, in that immigrants whose conversion is imperfect most commonly “re-convert” to become religiously Jewish upon settling in Israel.
I think the commitment to Israel of someone who went through a Reform (or whatever) conversion and moved to Israel is far less suspect than someone whose paternal grandfather was Jewish.
Also, there is a great deal of memory over the failure to deal with the flood of Russian Jews who ran to Israel. There were so many non-Jews who claimed conversion that it is still a huge problem. This idea was fought tooth and nail against its implementation before. Interesting it has traction now.
I agree. If there were pogroms and naziism in a great force in the world, which some would say there ARE, of course, and Israel wanted to save the Jews, would they not at that point consider everyone a Jew who is called a Jew by the enemy, and want to save them? Did all the mixed Russian Jews and Ethiopian Jews have to convert?
Also, genetically, the Jews have always profited greatly by outbreeding. This is true in the USA today. While there are more and more mixed marriages, those in which the mother is Jewish (and thus the kids), or where the mother converted, are aided in genetic strength by the new blood, as it were. And many of those marriages were converted in a conservative or reform synagogue. Hmmm.
More likely the other way around.. Also, the bill sounds more restrictive to me, rather than less.
I see both sides of the issue.
The Russians were, indeed, a problem. (In my experience it was not conversion, but Russian Orthodox Christians with some remote Jewish ancestor who immigrated with no intention of integrating into a Jewish society.)
I also see a logical distinction between marriage and aliyah.
Get a Reform JINO in Israel and their kids will end up being real Jewish just by peer pressure.
And converts of any kind are almost always the best Jews. They’re on fire. Put a Reform convert in Israel and 20 years later, he’ll be a Chabadnick.
“Did all the mixed Russian Jews and Ethiopian Jews have to convert?”
To get married to a Jewish Israeli, yes.
ping
Oh, there is certainly the possibility of Jews leaving in large numbers. The restrictiveness is by design.
That indeed was a huge problem. And, large part, the motivation for moving towards the law.
I don't understand. Such conversions are not recognized now, at least if one wants to get married in Israel.
ML/NJ
Which is why I believe this is aimed at those coming to Israel to live.
“In my experience it was not conversion, but Russian Orthodox Christians with some remote Jewish ancestor who immigrated with no intention of integrating into a Jewish society.
That indeed was a huge problem. And, large part, the motivation for moving towards the law.”
Which confuses me — aliyah would still be open to these non-Jews simply by genetics. So the problem is not solved.
I am simply unaware of hoards of fake converts making their way to Israel.
Fake grandparent paternal Jews looking to get out of some former Soviet country? Plenty.
Which makes me think (hope), this addresses marriage, not aliyah.
“I don’t understand. Such conversions are not recognized now, at least if one wants to get married in Israel.”
Same confusion here. (And why I also think this may have to do with aliyah.)
The article and follow up articles are as translucent as a wall.
I've often wondered just how one proves Jewishness for aliyah: synagogue invoices, bar mitzvah pictures, picture of maternal grandmother's grave? (Of course the pictures could be someone elses bar mitzvah or grave!) Do you know?
ML/NJ
It isn’t hard to prove. A person simply begins with who their mother was. Her Jewish ancestry is easily verified.
Nonsense. A daughter of my non-Orthodox chavurah made aliyah and wanted to get married there. It wasn't easy. There was no info her living mother could provide that was acceptable. She wound up needing a statement from an Orthodox rabbi who couldn't possibly have known anything about her ancestry, but wrote a letter as a favor to the girl's non-Orthodox rabbi. (I actually asked a good Orthodox friend to ask his rabbi to write such a letter for the girl, after receiving whatever form(s) of proof he requested, and the rabbi angrily refused my request.)
ML/NJ
My grand parents just showed up. Grandpa had a M-1 rifle and a bag of grenades.
Of course it was 1947.
My wife presented the ketubah of her parents and shul attendance records.
“Nonsense. A daughter of my non-Orthodox chavurah made aliyah and wanted to get married there. It wasn’t easy. There was no info her living mother could provide that was acceptable. She wound up needing a statement from an Orthodox rabbi who couldn’t possibly have known anything about her ancestry, but wrote a letter as a favor to the girl’s non-Orthodox rabbi. (I actually asked a good Orthodox friend to ask his rabbi to write such a letter for the girl, after receiving whatever form(s) of proof he requested, and the rabbi angrily refused my request.)”
Not an uncommon story.
It’s a real pain. We got off easy, but my wife is from a well-known Orthodox family. It was harder sell for her family to accept this Israeli kid as sufficiently Jewish for their daughter.
“A daughter of my non-Orthodox chavurah”
Completely off topic, but there is (or was) a really great bar in Tel Aviv called “The Chavurah”
30 years ago, so who knows.
Did they give her the problem over her making Aliyah? Or- after she made Aliyah? Or both?
ML/NJ
Regarding Russian immigration, a different issue. Large numbers made no pretense of being Jewish, simply had a Jewish grandparent and no other religious affilliation, thus eligible under the law of return. None of my business, but if Israel wants to largely limit immigration to actual Jews, it would be reasonable to change those provisions.
If you’d like to be on or off, please FR mail me.
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The article says they want to add the words “according to Jewish Law” to the end of the current law.
The current law states that a Jew is someone “born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism.” So the new law would make a Jew somoene “born of a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism according to Jewish Law.”
I interpret this a more restrictive, as it attempts to instill a legacy to the law. While it changes nothing if it passes today, the legacy will last long after the current rabbinate is gone.
Which Law is my big question. There are so many variables here if they want to make it restrictive they should make it explicit. They don’t want to make it explicit because they want the right to move the goalpost. I don’t like it and agree with the statement above, someone who converts to Judaism in a less than ideal manner is more likely to hold Jewish values and honor Jewish law than a guy who’s maternal grandmothers’ mother was Jewish.
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