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Too Expensive To Maintain And Too Dangerous To Fly
Strategy Page ^ | 7/13/2010 | James Dunnigan

Posted on 07/15/2010 5:28:14 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld

Four months after an Indian MiG-27 fighter bomber crashed, and all Indian MiG-27s were grounded, the aircraft have been cleared to fly again. The long delay was caused by fears that all the Russian made engines in these aircraft might have a common problem. This is not a new problem. The MiG-27, and Cold War era Russian warplanes in general, do not age well. India only has about a hundred MiG-27s still operational, and all of them were grounded for over a year (2005-6) when serious problems were discovered with the MiG-27s Russian designed engines. Things have since gotten better, but not by a whole lot. Last year, India decided to retire 60 percent of its 250 MiG-21 fighters over the next two years. The only ones remaining will be the upgraded MiG-21bis models. In the last few years, India believed it had cleared up many of the reliability problems with the MiG-21. Actually, they have, but the MiG-21 remains a dangerous aircraft to operate. India has been using MiG-21s since 1963, and has put about 800 into service. But 42 percent were subsequently lost due to accidents.

India lost 250 MiG-21s to accidents between 1991 and 2003. When consulted, Russia pointed out that India had insisted on manufacturing many of the spare parts needed to keep MiG-21s operational, and many of these parts were not manufactured to Russian specifications. While Russia does not have a reputation for making the highest quality equipment, their standards are often higher than India's. It's no secret that much of the military equipment made in India is pretty shabby by world standards.

(Excerpt) Read more at strategypage.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; coldwar; indiamig; indianairforce; jetengines; mig21; mig27; militaryaircraft; russia; russianaviation; uac

1 posted on 07/15/2010 5:28:17 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: sonofstrangelove

It doesn’t seem like Russian anything ages well.


2 posted on 07/15/2010 5:30:00 PM PDT by El Sordo (The bigger the government, the smaller the citizen.)
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To: 1COUNTER-MORTER-68; Mr. Mojo; James C. Bennett; mowowie; Captain Beyond; darkwing104; JRios1968; ...

Ping


3 posted on 07/15/2010 5:32:09 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: El Sordo

Cheese, breads, some beers and the cutest collection of women you’ve ever seen. I’ve got an adopted daughter from Ukraine and I keep adding to my gun collection the older she gets. Potential suitors will need a full CIA background check before they are allowed to come over...forget about taking her out of the house.


4 posted on 07/15/2010 5:35:16 PM PDT by crghill (You can't put a condom on your soul. Viva Arizona!)
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To: sonofstrangelove

“It’s no secret that much of the military equipment made in India is pretty shabby by world standards”

But...But...I thought all the engineers we get from India on those H1B Visas were superior to Americans.... You can’t move in my town without steping on an Indian software coder.


5 posted on 07/15/2010 5:36:38 PM PDT by NeverForgetBataan (To the German Commander: ..........................NUTS !)
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To: sonofstrangelove
"since 1963, and has put about 800 into service. But 42 percent were subsequently lost due to accidents."

Holy Cr8p! I would rather go up with a handful of balloons! ;-)

6 posted on 07/15/2010 5:41:11 PM PDT by chipper dave
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To: chipper dave

LOL


7 posted on 07/15/2010 5:42:53 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: All

Seems to me like I remember seeing where the Israelis are doing a big business upgrading Mig 21s for various countries. Maybe they need to consult them?


8 posted on 07/15/2010 5:44:27 PM PDT by Armedanddangerous (Montani Semper Liberi)
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To: El Sordo
What makes you say that?


9 posted on 07/15/2010 5:44:59 PM PDT by Boiler Plate ("Why be difficult, when with just a little more work, you can be impossible" Mom)
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To: sonofstrangelove

They tell me that crap will always remain crap no matter how one tries to get rid of the smell by repainting it, repackaging it, including hanging fancy mirror perfumers, etc, etc.......


10 posted on 07/15/2010 5:46:51 PM PDT by cranked
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To: El Sordo

Unlike the US, Russian combat aircraft design does not emphasize reliability, safety, operational readiness, and high sortie rates. Now, with Russia’s technological and industrial base in decline, their ability to produce modern combat aircraft is impaired.


11 posted on 07/15/2010 5:49:29 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Rockingham

Funny. we said that about the Japanese airplanes prior to Pearl Harbor. Chennault was trying to tell us we were wrong but nobody would listen.


12 posted on 07/15/2010 6:03:57 PM PDT by pfflier
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To: sonofstrangelove

Indian metallurgy is crap. Recycling on a huge scale with very poor quality control.

If you are making a automotive stamping die and the casted steel turns out to have voids it can be fixed. Not so with a piece of aluminum machined into an aircraft part.

The situation is improving but I can only imagine what it was like 5 or 10 years ago.


13 posted on 07/15/2010 6:18:31 PM PDT by The Free Engineer
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To: The Free Engineer
Indian metallurgy is crap. Recycling on a huge scale with very poor quality control.

Interesting you said that. I work with some Indian Software Engineers and they have confirmed what you said. They are very strong in information technology but very weak in basic manufacturing, mechanical engineering, and metallurgy. They decided to skip over the industrial phase in their development and go right to software, chip design and bio engineering. This is a real weakness in their economy. It will really hurt them in the long run if they don't correct this problem. One Indian Engineer I work with told me he would NEVER fly in a plane made in India. He wouldn't buy a car made in India. On the other hand he had very high confidence in purchasing software from India or seeing an Indian physician. Interesting.
14 posted on 07/15/2010 6:37:33 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: sonofstrangelove

“India lost 250 MiG-21s to accidents between 1991 and 2003”

Wow, widowmaker.


15 posted on 07/15/2010 6:50:48 PM PDT by F15Eagle (1 John 5:4-5, 4:15, 5:13; John 3:17-18, 6:69, 11:25, 14:6, 20:31; Rom10:8-11; 1 Tim 2:5; Titus 3:4-5)
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To: Rockingham
Unlike the US, Russian combat aircraft design does not emphasize reliability, safety, operational readiness, and high sortie rates

Because the US counterpart was so much better


16 posted on 07/15/2010 7:30:51 PM PDT by Oztrich Boy (a 16 year old Australian girl already did it. And she did it right. - WWJD)
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To: NeverForgetBataan
Indian software coder

Coding software vs rebuilding and reinstalling an engine in any modern fighter is very different. Alot easier and safer to code software than rebuild and reinstall an engine.
By a long shot.
17 posted on 07/15/2010 7:37:57 PM PDT by JSteff (((It was ALL about SCOTUS. Most forget about that and HAVE DOOMED us for a generation or more.)))
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To: Oztrich Boy

Despite a poor reputation for safety, the F-104 was safer to fly than its Soviet equivalent, the MiG-21. And high performance Western combat aircraft continued to improve over the years while Russian combat aircraft remain plagued today by safety and reliability issues.


18 posted on 07/15/2010 8:16:40 PM PDT by Rockingham
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To: Oztrich Boy

LOL...talk about a bad apple vs. a bushel of bad apples...


19 posted on 07/15/2010 8:26:17 PM PDT by rlmorel (We are traveling "The Road to Serfdom".)
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To: Armedanddangerous
Seems to me like I remember seeing where the Israelis are doing a big business upgrading Mig 21s for various countries.

Goodness knows the Israelis have had a good record in the MiG disposal department...


20 posted on 07/15/2010 10:11:38 PM PDT by JRios1968 (The real first rule of Fight Club: don't invite Chuck Norris...EVER)
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To: sonofstrangelove
India lost 250 MiG-21s to accidents between 1991 and 2003.

That's more than 20 per year...holy smokes!

21 posted on 07/15/2010 10:13:06 PM PDT by JRios1968 (The real first rule of Fight Club: don't invite Chuck Norris...EVER)
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To: chipper dave; F15Eagle; JRios1968; sonofstrangelove

Point one when using Strategypage for statistics-it’s the last place you should look at. The figure 250 refers to the totla number of IAF crashes, not the Mig-21 type, which would have literally killed off the fleet. But then the folks at Strategypage don’t really need much of accuracy.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/sep/11newssp.htm
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Aircraft/Current/602-MiG-Suresh.html


22 posted on 07/15/2010 10:26:46 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: The Free Engineer; truthguy

Umm, there’s no real Indian ‘metallurgy’ involved here since the Mig-21/27s were all built under license using Soviet equipment. These aircraft have had poor safety records the world over including the USSR-which got poorer once the USSR bit the dust.

India has also license built the Anglo-French Jaguar and newer Russian Su-30s-which have far better safety records than the early Migs.


23 posted on 07/15/2010 10:33:14 PM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Thank you for clearing this up.

:)


24 posted on 07/15/2010 10:49:27 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: chipper dave; sonofstrangelove

>>> “since 1963, and has put about 800 into service. But 42 percent were subsequently lost due to accidents.”

Holy Cr8p! I would rather go up with a handful of balloons! ;-)

Percentage-wise that’s a little worse then the Luftwaffe’s experience with the Lockheed F-104 Lawn Dart, but not by much.


25 posted on 07/15/2010 11:50:35 PM PDT by tlb
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To: tlb

The Luftwaffe lost 30 percent of its planes and Canada lost 50 percent of its planes.


26 posted on 07/15/2010 11:56:23 PM PDT by ErnstStavroBlofeld
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To: sonofstrangelove

I might have mentioned this before, but there was an article sometime back about the Constant Peg program which had USAF pilots flying “acquired” Soviet fighter craft in test missions. Few liked the MiG-21. Nobody, NOBODY liked flying the MiG-23/27.

from http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2007/April%202007/0407peg.aspx

“The MiG-23 did not have that problem [acceleration], as it was designed for speed—but it was unstable and difficult to fly. Constant Peg pilots would typically fly MiG-23s only after they had acquired extensive experience on the other Soviet models. “The guys really didn’t like flying the 23,” said Manclark. “They were scared of them.””


27 posted on 07/16/2010 2:25:32 AM PDT by DemforBush (Serpentine, Shel! SERPENTINE!)
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To: tlb

Makes me wonder if the Indians teach their pilots how to land their planes once they take off. lol


28 posted on 07/16/2010 3:46:49 AM PDT by chipper dave
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To: F15Eagle

“Wow, widowmaker.”

You’re telling me brother. That’s 1.7 planes per month.


29 posted on 07/16/2010 2:19:26 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: chipper dave

17 of India’s 30 Harriers have crashed. 56%


30 posted on 07/16/2010 2:29:10 PM PDT by MediaMole
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To: MediaMole
"17 of India’s 30 Harriers have crashed. 56%"

Geez, why bother buying anything. They are worse on these planes than their enemies would be. lol

31 posted on 07/16/2010 3:05:39 PM PDT by chipper dave
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To: sonofstrangelove

It’s easy to loose 50% when you only have two.


32 posted on 07/16/2010 3:13:52 PM PDT by Professional Engineer (Conservative States of America has a nice ring to it.)
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To: Oztrich Boy
Because the US counterpart was so much better

The accident rater for the F-104 was about 27 per 100,000 hours, about a tenth of the Indian rate for the Mig 21.

33 posted on 07/16/2010 3:20:15 PM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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To: MediaMole; chipper dave

The Harrier/Sea Harrier has a less than flattering safety record in almost all militaries its served with-

http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/SeaHarrier.htm
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/HARRIER/Sea_Harrier_Spain.htm
http://www.ejection-history.org.uk/Aircraft_by_Type/INDIA/SEa-Harrier.htm
http://www.stripes.com/news/pilots-defend-harrier-jet-1.1161/comments-7.1323


34 posted on 07/17/2010 4:03:27 AM PDT by sukhoi-30mki
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