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Low-carb diets may have the edge in some heart disease risk factors
LAT ^ | Aug 2, 2010 | Jeannine Stein

Posted on 08/02/2010 4:35:00 PM PDT by fightinJAG

The fascination with low-carb versus low-fat diet continues; the latest news comes from a study in the Annals of Internal Medicine released today that found that people on both diets lost about the same amount of weight over two years. However, the low-carb group had an edge in raising HDL (good) cholesterol and lowering diastolic blood pressure

The study looked at 153 people who were randomly assigned to a low-carb diet, and 154 to a low-fat diet. The low-carb group limited carbohydrate intake to 20 grams per day for the first 12 weeks, then gradually increased fruits, vegetables, whole grains and dairy foods until they reached a desired weight. The low-fat group kept daily calories to 1,200 to 1,500, and fat to 30% of their diet.

Both groups also took part in a two-year behavioral program that focused on how to manage relapses, self-monitoring, and an emphasis on moderate physical activity.

(Excerpt) Read more at latimes.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: atkins; diet; lowcarb
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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1 posted on 08/02/2010 4:35:03 PM PDT by fightinJAG
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To: fightinJAG

The methodology of this is lame. You CANNOT simply assume that calories of, say, an apple, are the same as calories from a pear. Foods are not interchangeable. Moreover, who was the control group? What did they eat?


2 posted on 08/02/2010 4:39:26 PM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: fightinJAG

I have two cardiologists at Cedars-Sinai. Both like the Arkins diet.


3 posted on 08/02/2010 4:39:36 PM PDT by BunnySlippers (I love BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: fightinJAG

I hear prune juice and Ex Lax works pretty good for a short term diet.


4 posted on 08/02/2010 4:39:59 PM PDT by umgud (Obama is a failed experiment.)
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To: fightinJAG

I swear by a modified Atkins diet. Like most people, I keep wanting to take off a few pounds here and there, and the most effective way for me, and healthy/slow way, is to cut out pasta, bread and rice, eat a ton of veggies and berries and nuts, eggs, cheese and meat. My bloods have never been better. I know it’s counterintutive but it seems to work with me. Maybe it has to also do with the way I metabolize foods.


5 posted on 08/02/2010 4:49:22 PM PDT by LurkedLongEnough
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To: BunnySlippers
Both like the Arkins diet.

Is that the one where you can't eat anything solid, but can have all the beer you like?

6 posted on 08/02/2010 4:49:48 PM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (I have five dollars for each of you.)
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To: fightinJAG

I have been on the Atkins Diet for years, with an annual of exception of Thanksgiving through Valentine’s Day! I keep my carbs between 20 and 30 grams a day and don’t worry about fat or calories.

My cholesterol is at 167 with 102 triglycerides and LDL=96, HDL=50

My blood glucose=85

With those numbers I will remain on this diet for a while longer. I do eat veggies. I don’t eat grains or starches. I can make a tasty low-carb ice cream and a wonderful low-carb cheesecake.


7 posted on 08/02/2010 4:51:58 PM PDT by Jemian (If the republicans want to win, they need to run a conservative.)
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To: Mr Ramsbotham

Hehe ... I’m the typo queen. :>


8 posted on 08/02/2010 4:54:03 PM PDT by BunnySlippers (I love BULL MARKETS . . .)
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To: LS
The methodology of this is lame. You CANNOT simply assume that calories of, say, an apple, are the same as calories from a pear. Foods are not interchangeable. ...

But isn't that exactly what the 'calories in must equal calories out' crowd has always claimed: '3,000 calories of butter is the same as 3,000 calories of oatmeal'?
Or do I hear the goalposts screeching ...

9 posted on 08/02/2010 5:00:13 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: Jemian

The new Atkins diet book includes more veggies. I’ve lost 30 pounds. I have more energy, and it isn’t hard to stay on.


10 posted on 08/02/2010 5:02:19 PM PDT by GOPPachyderm
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To: fightinJAG

11 posted on 08/02/2010 5:05:28 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Now what kind of a geroo are you anyway?)
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To: GOPPachyderm

I’ll have to get that.

I’m not really losing that much weight right now. But falling on Feb. 11 and suffering a skull fracture and a vertabrae fracture hasn’t really done much for my desire to move around. I walk 100 yards and my hips feel like they’re being split apart. However, it does keep the water weight off. My fingers swell if I have just a small amount of starch, i.e. bread or pasta.

So, I’ll stay on it. Also, I may not go off it during the holiday period, just the holidays themselves. I did not like the way I felt this past holiday season.


12 posted on 08/02/2010 5:07:22 PM PDT by Jemian (If the republicans want to win, they need to run a conservative.)
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To: GOPPachyderm

I went on a no carb diet to lose weight. I ate eggs and sausage for breakfast, an apple and cheese for lunch, and meat and salad and/or veggies for supper. I lost 30 pounds in 7 weeks (my goal) and my total cholesterol went from 210 to 165. The best part is you never go hungry. If you get hungry you eat as much as you want. Portions are not an issue but I found myself eating much less anyway. If you try it don’t forget to supplement with potassium for at least the first two or three weeks.


13 posted on 08/02/2010 5:09:20 PM PDT by csmusaret (A government that can dictate how much water flows into a toilet is a powerful government indeed.)
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i have one of those stupid bodies that apparently manufactures too much cholesterol, so im on a non statin med that has lowered it, but im afraid to go back to my atkins habits for obvious reasons, that im afraid to intake any cholesterol...

dammit...


14 posted on 08/02/2010 5:22:00 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: LurkedLongEnough

After I had a heart scan, the doc said the best diet is the hunter and gatherer diet - sounds like what you are doing. Atkins with extras.


15 posted on 08/02/2010 5:27:01 PM PDT by peggybac
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To: csmusaret

You seem very knowledgeable and experienced,yet my experience with low carb was very different. I was hungry almost all the time and lost energy,maybe I couldn’t eat enough protein to satiate me? I missed my potatoes,it never felt like I had enough to eat. By the way,I am not obese,think average sixty year old woman,not slim,not obese,but could lose a few pounds.

Was I doing something wrong? Maybe not eating enough protein? The other thing is that the idea of having to take a potassium supplement makes me suspicious. If it’s really healthy,wouldn’t it supply everything one needs?

I’m just trying to understand,’cause I didn’t have a good experience with it. I lost weight but was very uncomfortable.

Any advice is appreciated.


16 posted on 08/02/2010 5:34:13 PM PDT by FreeDeerHawk
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To: FreeDeerHawk

My first guess is that you didn’t eat enough protein. You can have unlimited quantities of meat. Don’t try and count calories.


17 posted on 08/02/2010 5:42:50 PM PDT by Jemian (If the republicans want to win, they need to run a conservative.)
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To: peggybac

This diet seems sensible. It’s pretty much hunter-gatherer.

http://www.thedietsolutionprogram.com/

The proponent advocates cutting out all refined sugar and flour. She doesn’t even recommend whole grain bread - just sprouted grain and rice bread. You can use Stevia, honey and other natural sugars in moderation. But no artificial sweeteners.

One recommendation is using coconut oil for frying at high temps. Never tried that and the diet nazis had such a cow over that, the movie theaters stopped popping corn in it. Have to get some.

There is a book for about $50 which I haven’t purchased yet, but may down the road. Although I kind of have the idea just from the video and info at the website.


18 posted on 08/02/2010 5:43:59 PM PDT by randita (Visit keyhouseraces.com for a list of vulnerable DEM and must hold GOP House seats.)
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To: fightinJAG

Atkins does work, but it’s hard for people who prefer vegetables and fruits in large proportion to meats.


19 posted on 08/02/2010 5:45:48 PM PDT by randita (Visit keyhouseraces.com for a list of vulnerable DEM and must hold GOP House seats.)
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To: Jemian
a wonderful low-carb cheesecake.

Do Tell !

20 posted on 08/02/2010 6:01:00 PM PDT by Red Boots
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To: FreeDeerHawk

I’ll insert myself into the conversation . . .

At a guess, FreeDeerHawk, yes, you were possibly doing it wrong. You need to eat protein—AND FAT—to make a low-carb, Atkins-style diet work. Whenever you’re hungry, you need to munch on some protein, at least. There’s no need to go hungry on an Atkins diet. If you’re hungry, you’re not eating enough protein, fat, or low-cal vegetables. It’s pretty much that simple.

Having said that, my sister couldn’t do it. She just craved carbs too much—potatoes and bread were her downfall.

Those damn carbs ARE addictive.

I know that if I have one or two potato chips at a party, it’s all I can do to keep from cleaning out the entire bowl. Some people have an alcohol problem. I have a carbohydrate problem.

When you cold-turkey from the carb overload that the government has prescribed for you, there will be a withdrawal phase. Trust me. For some people, it’s not that bad. For others, it’s pretty substantial. My anecdotal experience is that it’s significantly harder for women than it is for men to do without carbs.

If you’re serious about finding out exactly what a low-carb diet does, how it works, why it works, and how to go about it, I’d suggest you look into a couple of books—perhaps your library has them:

First, most obviously, Atkin’s New Diet Revolution. That explains quite a bit of the low-carb diet, why it works, and what you have to do to make it work.

Next, Dr. Bernstein’s Diabetes Solution, by Richard Bernstein. He was an engineer who, in his 50’s (I think), developed diabetes and went back to school to become an MD to try to figure out what went wrong and how to put it right. His answer is basically a low-carb diet.

Also good is: Gary Taube’s Good Calories, Bad Calories. He was the NY Times Magazine writer who kicked off the current renaissance of low-carb with his article “What If It’s All A Big Fat Lie.”

Finally, if you’re of a scientific bent, a biochemistry book. I got one, and looked up pretty much everything that Atkins and Bernstein were saying and sure enough, that’s how human biochemistry works.

Not all calories are created equal.

Insulin is the key.

I put the low-fat craze up there with global warming as a pseudoscientific craze brought on by scientists with an agenda, abetted by an intellectually lazy media and a power-hungry government. Those three elements, put together, are a pretty nasty combination, IMHO.

Now, having gone through all of that, I’ll have to confess that just doing Atkins/low carb wasn’t enough for me, either. I dropped a lot of weight (40 pounds?) and kept about half of it off by staying more or less low-carb. But I didn’t really lose enough weight to go from obese to merely overweight until I went on a physician-monitored low-calorie diet. But, curiously enough, it was a high-protein, low-carb (and low-fat) diet—food replacement meals (dietdirect.com, to give an uncompensated plug) and a couple of prescription medications to suppress appetite and cravings. But I’ve lost 60 pounds or so that way. (Warning: going this route is not the cheapest way to go—between the meal replacement packets, medications, office visits, and frequent blood tests the doctor requires in order to make sure that I stay healthy with the weight loss.)

Sorry for the length of the post, but if it helps you or another Freeper, it was well worth it!


21 posted on 08/02/2010 6:11:07 PM PDT by filbert (More filbert at http://www.medary.com--I've gone rogue!)
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To: raygunfan

Atkins concluded that high cholesterol doesn’t matter, some have high, some have low.
It is the carbos that are the killer.
Media propaganda with no fat, no cholesterol has balooned population to the present obesity epidemic.
Oh, and kids are not allowed to run.


22 posted on 08/02/2010 6:14:04 PM PDT by Leo Carpathian (fffffFRrrreeeeepppeeee-ssed!)
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To: LurkedLongEnough

It works for me as well. I just feel a 100% percent better when I eat as you described. When I start allowing too much carb (outside of the veggies, fruits) I go into an addictive mode and feel horrible.


23 posted on 08/02/2010 6:17:08 PM PDT by GOP Poet (Obama is an OLYMPIC failure.)
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To: Red Boots
Basically, don't do a crust. I grease and flour my spring-form pan and also line the bottom with paper. That allows me to transfer it later to a serving dish.

Substitute stevia or other no-carb sweetener for sugar in the recipe. I use about 4 eggs to 24 oz of cream cheese and probably 2 cups sweetener. Splash in a good dollop of vanilla. Bake at 325 degrees F over a baking dish of water. After or around an hour check with a toothpick or wooden skewer for doneness. Let cool and then chill in refrigerator for at least 8 hours.

Garnish with fruit such as twisted lemon slices, strawberries, blueberries or fresh peaches. Or, make a low-carb chocolate sauce and drizzle over the cheesecake.

24 posted on 08/02/2010 6:17:19 PM PDT by Jemian (If the republicans want to win, they need to run a conservative.)
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To: FreeDeerHawk

One point too that comes with Atkins, that’s scientifically proven, make sure you don’t make it low-fat - i.e., eat cheeses or medium-marbled meats. The brain is triggered by the fat that it’s satisfied. That’s why the non-fat potato chips didn’t work.


25 posted on 08/02/2010 6:18:16 PM PDT by time4good
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To: FreeDeerHawk

We did not feel so good on Atkins, either. My husband esp noticed a lack of energy. My cholesterol was too high. Doc told husband to get to Weight Watchers, where we started watching portion control (duh) and counting points.

I lost 8 pounds instantly (and cannot lose any more or I’d be scrawny). Husband loses well on WW, but has gained some back. We count points some, go by Glycemic Index some, lots of veggies esp, but usually a bit of rice or pasta with dinner. Not too much meat. Tuna and cottage at lunch.

I have never felt better. I teach Middle School math, etc., and need to think clearly!! Protein is the key for that, for me.


26 posted on 08/02/2010 6:19:07 PM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: FreeDeerHawk

We did not feel so good on Atkins, either. My husband esp noticed a lack of energy. My cholesterol was too high. Doc told husband to get to Weight Watchers, where we started watching portion control (duh) and counting points.

I lost 8 pounds instantly (and cannot lose any more or I’d be scrawny). Husband loses well on WW, but has gained some back. We count points some, go by Glycemic Index some, lots of veggies esp, but usually a bit of rice or pasta with dinner. Not too much meat. Tuna and cottage at lunch.

I have never felt better. I teach Middle School math, etc., and need to think clearly!! Protein is the key for that, for me.


27 posted on 08/02/2010 6:19:20 PM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: filbert
I know that if I have one or two potato chips at a party, it’s all I can do to keep from cleaning out the entire bowl. Some people have an alcohol problem. I have a carbohydrate problem.

That is me, too. It is much easier to say no to that first one bite than to try to stop eating after it.

28 posted on 08/02/2010 6:19:38 PM PDT by Jemian (If the republicans want to win, they need to run a conservative.)
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To: Red Boots

Yeh, no fair keeping low-carb cheesecake to yourself. Enquiring minds want to know.


29 posted on 08/02/2010 6:22:13 PM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: Red Boots

Yeh, no fair keeping low-carb cheesecake to yourself. Enquiring minds want to know.


30 posted on 08/02/2010 6:22:27 PM PDT by bboop (We don't need no stinkin' VAT)
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To: Jemian

Thank you,I guess I felt like I might be eating too much meat and fish,it seemed like I was overdoing it a lot of the time,yet apparently,it still wasn’t enough.

I will probably try again.


31 posted on 08/02/2010 6:24:07 PM PDT by FreeDeerHawk
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To: kalee

for later


32 posted on 08/02/2010 6:26:23 PM PDT by kalee (The offences we give, we write in the dust; Those we take, we engrave in marble. J Huett 1658)
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To: Leo Carpathian

well, i use liponexol, itz a carb inhibitor, and so since im eating more carbs, it effectively blox them, and so im not putting on any weight...

im just scared to eat any sort of cholesterol....which sux, my family is chowing down on pizza, steak, hoagies, etc...and im stuck on watching my cholesterol...

is sux.....atkins worked for me too, but my doc has me so spooked now cause my total cholesterol was 260, and since he gave me the non statin med, it down to 220....and my weight fine..im just dying for real food dammit....


33 posted on 08/02/2010 6:28:18 PM PDT by raygunfan
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To: GOPPachyderm

There’s a new Atkins book? I’ll have to check that out.


34 posted on 08/02/2010 6:28:32 PM PDT by fightinJAG (Obama: "I will gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today.")
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To: randita

I thought that once you finished the induction phase you could eat pretty much all you wanted of veggies and some fruits.


35 posted on 08/02/2010 6:35:31 PM PDT by fightinJAG (Obama: "I will gladly pay you on Tuesday for a hamburger today.")
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To: FreeDeerHawk

First the potassium. When you first begin a low carb diet a lot of the weight you lose is water weight. This loss of water results in a loss of potassium and MAY lead to a defiency. In any case that is a temporary condition. If you begin to feel weak just take some potassium for a couple of weeks.

As for the hunger, I don’t know. I always eat until I’m satisfied, and I have never been hungry on this regimen. I love potatoes and sandwichs and I really miss them, but that doesn’t result in hunger. I miss chocolate cake too, but it isn’t diet food. Pasta, bread, and potatoes aren’t diet food either. I suggest you find something to snack on. I use Pork Rinds, cheese and boiled eggs. Carrot sticks or other raw vegetables would work too if you prefer them. The point is to eat; don’t starve yourself.

After I lost my thirty pounds I continued with the same meals for breakfast and lunch but added back my potatoes and other carbs at supper. That works for me for maintenance, and I have no problem avoiding weight gain as long as I stick to it.

Finally. A halfway approach won’t work. Low carb is no weight loss. No carb is what works. That isn’t actually practical but 10 or fewer carbs per day is easy to do, and it works!


36 posted on 08/02/2010 6:49:37 PM PDT by csmusaret (A government that can dictate how much water flows into a toilet is a powerful government indeed.)
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To: dread78645

In this study, one group (the high-fat group) actually lost weight on “unrestricted calories.”


37 posted on 08/02/2010 7:21:05 PM PDT by LS ("Castles made of sand, fall in the sea . . . eventually." (Hendrix))
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To: csmusaret

two questions: what about coffee? When I did Atkins years ago the one thing I hated was missing my cups of Joe each day. Second - NO carbs? Again, comparing to Atkins, even in Induction weeks you were allowed comlex carbs such as veggies. So, what’d it take to post your diet for three weeks’ worth? 30lbs is what I’m wanting to lose.


38 posted on 08/02/2010 7:27:57 PM PDT by time4good
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To: time4good

comlex = complex


39 posted on 08/02/2010 7:28:33 PM PDT by time4good
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To: filbert

If I may add to your book list...Dr. Diana Schwarzbein, M.D.: The Schwarzbein Principle: The Truth About Losing Weight, Being Healthy and Feeling Younger. This book talks ALL ABOUT insulin, and foods that spike it, leading to weight gain, etc. Lots of diabetes in my family, and this book has helped me a LOT. Got another book of hers that is all recipes. Very tasty recipes, especially if you like feta cheese, balsamic vinegar, fresh veggies, basil, etc.


40 posted on 08/02/2010 7:31:51 PM PDT by Mama Shawna
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To: time4good

I drink all the coffee I want, but I don’t use cream or sugar or substitutes. I am not advocating anyone elses plan. What works for me is as close to zero carbs as I can get. Carbs make me hungry as well as fat so I try to eliminate them entirely. That is almost impossible, but that as my goal enables me to eat very few carbs in a day; usually 7-10 when I am really into losing weight. I don’t understand your last question, but i lost 30 pounds in 7 weeks almost two years ago. A few months ago I got on a dessert kick and put on 15 lbs. I went back on the weight loss effort 8 days ago, and I have lost 9 pounds as of this morning.


41 posted on 08/02/2010 7:39:02 PM PDT by csmusaret (A government that can dictate how much water flows into a toilet is a powerful government indeed.)
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To: fightinJAG

You still have to keep carbs low, so that means steering clear of fruits and some veggies that have a high sugar content - bananas and carrots, e.g. But not nearly as bad as the induction phase.

Another problem I have with it is I LOVE bread and real butter. Probably my favorite food. I’ve started eating sprouted grain bread. It’s different, but good and low salt to boot.

I’ve done Atkins and lost about 13 lbs.-got pretty trim. Kept about half of it off. I rarely eat sweets or snack foods of any kind - just ice cream once or twice a month. IMO, that’s THE key to weight loss and maintenance.


42 posted on 08/02/2010 7:39:35 PM PDT by randita (Visit keyhouseraces.com for a list of vulnerable DEM and must hold GOP House seats.)
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To: fightinJAG

The only book anyone needs is a good carb counter; preferably one that uses brand names. The rest can be summed up in one sentence: If it contains more than 2 grams of carbohydrates don’t eat it.


43 posted on 08/02/2010 7:45:55 PM PDT by csmusaret (A government that can dictate how much water flows into a toilet is a powerful government indeed.)
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To: csmusaret

Sorry for the density on my part - I guess I was asking what did a sample of three weeks look like as far as what you ate. But, your last post seems to be saying you really didn’t eat ANY carbs, complex (brocolli, nuts) or simple (obviously fruit) AND little or NO FAT??


44 posted on 08/02/2010 8:41:21 PM PDT by time4good
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To: LS
In this study, one group (the high-fat group) actually lost weight on “unrestricted calories.”

So the 'calories in must equal calories out' crowd are full of horse-squeezings?
Thank you, that was my point ...

45 posted on 08/02/2010 8:45:50 PM PDT by dread78645 (Evolution. A doomed theory since 1859.)
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To: FreeDeerHawk
Frankly, Potassium isn't that big a problem because its easy to substitute in Potassium Chloride salt or half and half normal and potassium salt. Its cheap at the store sold by Morton Salt. I have always struggled with Phosphorus which is in abundance in grains but not in any real amount in other foods except peanuts and beans like black beans and such, but you are going to get carbs eating beans.

I did the Adkins diet for about a year about 4 years ago and at 6 months hit a wall because I was eating enough oil in the form of cheese and peanuts and such that I balanced my energy use and stopped losing weight. Then I got bored and frustrated and eventually gained it all back.

Nevertheless, the general low carb approach I believe is still valid though I believe that the Adkins approach of inducing Ketosis as a means of metabolism (living at 20 carbs) results in an unnaturally balanced diet that isn't sustainable.

The more pragmatic reduced carb diet is sustainable for life and quite pleasant.

Like so many other people have said here, the secret is to forgo pretty much any bread,noodles,potatos or other white or near white starches and concentrate on vegetables, meat pretty much as much as you care for and some cheese but better to have low carb yogurt and reduced fat cottage cheese.

Depending on the part of the country you are in you can find "double fiber" reduced carb bread, 18 carbs per slice, (Around here the Brand is Brownberry) and I have one slice of this each day to make up for that whole that only bread fills best. I keep a budget of 100 carbs and this seems to be enough to get the positive effects of lowering cholesterol and triglycerides significantly and yet I have plenty of energy.

Today is the very best time to be doing this ever because as folks have said there are a whole number of sugar free products which can cater to an occasional bout of sweet tooth without much real impact on your diet that you cannot balance within that very day. There are also low-carb tortillas that you can make all sorts of interesting sandwiches with. I have peanut butter and sugar-free jelly on my bread and this helps limit my intake of this while getting the good nutrition in the peanut butter.

I take a mountain of vitamins every day. I never much cottoned to that, but I was found to be low on vitamin D, B12 and a few other things so Boom.. Mr. Mega-Vitamin. But this has worked out and I have been using Niacin 2000mg per day rather than taking statins and gotten very nice results. The secret with this being, taking the timed release form which avoids almost any flushing even if I take the whole amount at a time rather than in two doses during the day. I take milk thistle because it is protective of the liver which is the organ that is most tried by all of these choices. And my liver function is great. I just have read over and over that this is the best move to provide a pound of prevention if you would.

I take at least 4 oz of red wine each day and this has been a chanllenge for me because I have never been a drinker but this and a few other moves have helped raise my HDL to acceptable levels.

And I have been losing 2 to 3 lb per week for months. Just add 20 minutes walking once or twice a day and it can work for a lifetime.

46 posted on 08/02/2010 8:53:22 PM PDT by dalight
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To: fightinJAG

low carb diet bump


47 posted on 08/02/2010 8:56:09 PM PDT by Taffini ( Mr. Pippen and Mr. Waffles do not approve and neither do I)
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To: filbert

Good post. I’m able to raise my own meat and fat on good pasture. I never knew before how good lamb fat could taste if it is raised well.

Eating protein without enough fat is very dangerous.


48 posted on 08/02/2010 9:09:03 PM PDT by Poincare
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To: Jemian

cheesecake, low carb bump


49 posted on 08/02/2010 9:11:17 PM PDT by Taffini ( Mr. Pippen and Mr. Waffles do not approve and neither do I)
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To: dalight

2-3 pounds a week—WOW, that is great.


50 posted on 08/02/2010 9:22:41 PM PDT by Taffini ( Mr. Pippen and Mr. Waffles do not approve and neither do I)
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