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Petraeus renews limits on airstrikes in Afghanistan
Miami Herald ^ | Wednesday, 08.04.10 | NANCY A. YOUSSEF

Posted on 08/04/2010 6:03:10 PM PDT by Pan_Yan

WASHINGTON -- Afghanistan commander Army Gen. David Petraeus has renewed orders to American troops to refrain from calling in artillery or air power when battling Taliban forces unless they're certain that no civilians are present.

The Aug. 1 order, Petraeus' first since he assumed command early this summer from ousted Army Gen. Stanley McChrystal, was an effort to fine-tune a McChrystal directive that had angered some U.S. troops, who said the restrictions on the use of artillery and air power exposed them to greater danger. Petraeus' order, unclassified portions of which were released Wednesday, seemed unlikely to mollify that complaint, however.

In his directive, Petraeus sought to strike a balance between protecting the population - the cornerstone of counterinsurgency - and minimizing the risks to U.S. and allied troops.

He wrote that protecting civilians "does not prevent commanders from protecting the lives of their men and women as a matter of self-defense where it is determined no other options are available to effectively counter the threat."

Petraeus, however, used virtually the same language as McChrystal to prohibit the use of artillery and airstrikes unless a commander knows civilians won't be wounded or killed.

(Excerpt) Read more at miamiherald.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: afghanistan; airstrikes; petraeus; roe; waronterror
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1 posted on 08/04/2010 6:03:12 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan
Petraeus, however, used virtually the same language as McChrystal to prohibit the use of artillery and airstrikes unless a commander knows civilians won't be wounded or killed.

That's just an invitation for terrorists to turn civilian areas into free-fire zones.

2 posted on 08/04/2010 6:09:03 PM PDT by vbmoneyspender
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To: Pan_Yan
Army Gen. David Petraeus has renewed orders to American troops to refrain from calling in artillery or air power when battling Taliban forces unless they're certain that no civilians are present.

There is no way we could have won WWII with these rules. Anyone remember Dresden? Tokyo?
3 posted on 08/04/2010 6:10:48 PM PDT by Signalman
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To: Signalman
There is no way we could have won WWII with these rules. Anyone remember Dresden? Tokyo?

Who do you want to carpet bomb? Kabul? It's one of the only places where the "good Afghans" are in charge. This is not a war of front lines, fixed positions and pitched battles. Like it or not we are occupiers fighting a native resistance force.

4 posted on 08/04/2010 6:17:56 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Signalman

This was an Obama Commander in Chief order.

Patraeus knows better.

Look for Patraeus to implement the order, as he has done, and then Question the Cmmdr in Chief’s Sanity, willingness to WIN, and the order itself from on high.
Petraus might resign if Obambi doesn’t let the Soldiers fight to win.

Tic....tic....tic...tic.....The resignation clock has started.....


5 posted on 08/04/2010 6:20:26 PM PDT by 4Speed
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To: Pan_Yan

Seriously we worry way too much on the collateral damage front. No other nation on earth comes even close to our rules of engagement.

We should level the place, do it quickly and be done with it and send a very clear message to the world - you enable people to hurt our interests and people and you will be dead - PERIOD.

Ever since we allowed the liberal disease into the war game of Vietnam we have completely screwed ourselves.

Our goals should be the complete protection of our soldiers and NO ONE else.


6 posted on 08/04/2010 6:22:01 PM PDT by surfer (To err is human, to really foul things up takes a Democrat, don't expect the GOP to have the answer!)
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To: Pan_Yan

My son leaves for Afghanistan next week. For whose freedom is he fighting? The American people ought to be screaming at the politicians to protect our troops and let them fight to win, or bring them home. But we are too busy watching the blue box of Babylon. He is not fighting for our freedom at this point. The sad thing is he knows it but volunteered to go to help get his brothers home safe. Our country and our politicians have abandoned them.


7 posted on 08/04/2010 6:25:23 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: surfer
We should level the place, do it quickly and be done with it ... Our goals should be the complete protection of our soldiers and NO ONE else.

So you would advise we pull all of our soldiers out and the indiscriminately kill a few million Afghans from afar? According to theory this is a nation by the people and for the people. I don't think the American public would stand for that.

8 posted on 08/04/2010 6:27:57 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

But you are pleased to have them stand for the death of our sons whom they put in harms way and then tell them to restrain themselves from firing their weapons? Your “compassion” is sickening.


9 posted on 08/04/2010 6:30:14 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: Conservative9
Thank you for the service and sacrifices that your family has made. We pray for them daily. I'm not sure anyone has a good answer for the Afghan dilemma, but I'm pretty sure I liked Bush's plan better than Obama’s.
10 posted on 08/04/2010 6:30:40 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan
Photobucket
11 posted on 08/04/2010 6:33:35 PM PDT by Candor7 (Obama .......yes......is fascist... ..He meets every diagnostic of history.)
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To: Pan_Yan

You would rather warn the enemy about an upcoming attack, give out medals for not firing and sending back servicemen in boxes from the box.

The American public - the true Americans would not stand for that.

I never said pull the troops. We need to execute our war with extreme prejudice and do it quickly. Perfect example...we should have nuked Tora Bora when we had Bin Laden trapped...but what did the idiot Bush do...has a cease fire to enable him to escape.

Both Clinton and Bush failed miserably when they had this prick in their sights and thousands of troops have died because of their incompentence and thousands more are dying because of the current Incompetence In Chief currently usurping the WH.

The goal should have been to kill Bin Laden at all costs and it should have been done within 6 months.


12 posted on 08/04/2010 6:34:43 PM PDT by surfer (To err is human, to really foul things up takes a Democrat, don't expect the GOP to have the answer!)
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To: Conservative9
But you are pleased to have them stand for the death of our sons ...

You are projecting. I don't think anyone has a good answer as to what to do in Afghanistan. If (when) we leave there will be a bloodbath and the terrorists will have another haven. Pakistan will possibly fall next. Then you have a radical islamic state with nuclear weapons.

President Bush left just enough men in Afghanistan to keep the government from falling. President Obama has engaged in nation building. At the current rate there will be more casualties in Afghanistan under two years of Obama than seven years under Bush.

There are no good choices.

13 posted on 08/04/2010 6:36:02 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

As an NCO, if my troops are in the shit I would call in Arty, Air, Naval Bombardment, hell the Wrath of God, locusts, famine, floods, whatever if I had His call sign. Anything less you are not doing your job of taking care of the troops and acomplishing the mission. We didn’t choose where and how the enemy fight. We damned sure shouldn’t let them make us play their games at the cost of American lives.


14 posted on 08/04/2010 6:38:59 PM PDT by Feckless (Don't care where he was born. The oath I took said "...against all enemies, foreign and domestic".)
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To: surfer
You would rather warn the enemy about an upcoming attack, give out medals for not firing and sending back servicemen in boxes from the box.

Where did you read that? That is a serious case of projection. How would you execute this war with 'extreme prejudice'? What target do you send the bombers after? Where is the enemy?

15 posted on 08/04/2010 6:39:06 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

This should have been over in 6 months. We knew exactly where the enemy was. We had the means to terminate their existence PERIOD we didn’t do it. EPIC FAIL all because of mamby pampy BS policies which ONLY help the enemy and get our boys killed.


16 posted on 08/04/2010 6:41:51 PM PDT by surfer (To err is human, to really foul things up takes a Democrat, don't expect the GOP to have the answer!)
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To: Feckless
We didn’t choose where and how the enemy fight.

You are exactly correct, we had no choice about where to fight. Sun Tze was adamant about not letting your enemy choose the field of battle. We did not have that option. The question is what do we do now. We all agree that the rules of engagement hamstring our forces in favor of the enemy. I wonder if there was a poll taken today how many FReepers would vote to pull us out of Afghanistan immediately.

17 posted on 08/04/2010 6:46:07 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

There ARE good choices if we put men on the ground there. They need bunker busting bombs and level the mountains on the Pakistan Afghanistan border after three days of dropping leaflets to get out of hell. Then pack up and leave with this warning: If you hurt any American or one of our Allies again we will take out the rest of your God forsaken country. Better yet, we will take out Mecca, the satanic worship center of the world. Sorry but the purpose of war is to kill people and bring things. When it is done swiftly and effectively, and the enemy know we are serious, they leave us alone. Remember Kadafi? One big bomb. Muslims are cowards.


18 posted on 08/04/2010 6:46:11 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: surfer
This should have been over in 6 months

There are a lot of lessons we can learn from past mistakes, ours and others. But what do we do now?

19 posted on 08/04/2010 6:47:27 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

Petraeus has no control over the orders. These orders come STRAIGHT from the White House and Obama.


20 posted on 08/04/2010 6:48:09 PM PDT by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: Conservative9

Your opinion has more weight than most of the others here. You have skin in the fight. Unfortunately, we are not the country that you or I want us to be. In the middle 70’s we bombed the hell out of a little country in Southeast Asia, told them not to do it again and pulled out. We promised that we would come back if they didn’t behave. They didn’t. We didn’t. I don’t want that history to be repeated.


21 posted on 08/04/2010 6:53:33 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Thunder90

If that is true and he really loves his men, he should resign and go straight to Congress and tell them the Usurper is murdering our sons. Then he should call a press conference and do the same. It would be sacrifice and bravery. And then he would be president.


22 posted on 08/04/2010 6:53:42 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: Pan_Yan

We need to stop enabling our enemies. We need to let our soldiers do their job and get it done.

We don’t learn from our mistakes because the same stupid logic used to decide to a cease-fire is being used in the creation of a lot of these rules.


23 posted on 08/04/2010 6:55:40 PM PDT by surfer (To err is human, to really foul things up takes a Democrat, don't expect the GOP to have the answer!)
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To: Pan_Yan

No we didn’t. There was no ultimatum given. And I do not want to repeat history. We need a man int the Whitehouse who will keep his word to protect us and we need a congress and military who will keep their oath of office: to preserve and protect the Constitution for all enemies, foreign and DOMESTIC.


24 posted on 08/04/2010 6:57:10 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: surfer
We need to let our soldiers do their job and get it done.

And that is the crux of the problem. What is their job?

25 posted on 08/04/2010 6:57:46 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Conservative9

Petraeus is going to stay to try and protect his men and women the best he can. However, because Obama and the State Department are running the war, this will become increasingly difficult.

I expect Petraeus to resign by the end of the year, when Westley Clark becomes SecDef.


26 posted on 08/04/2010 6:58:05 PM PDT by Thunder90 (Fighting for truth and the American way... http://citizensfortruthandtheamericanway.blogspot.com/)
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To: Pan_Yan
"Like it or not we are occupiers fighting a native resistance force."

Sorta thought there were quite a few Iranians, Arabs and Pakistanis in the mix.

27 posted on 08/04/2010 6:59:29 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: Pan_Yan

“What is their job?”

You are not listening.
Unless you mean the Regime has not given a clear job description. They have not. They want to look tough while protecting their muslim friends.


28 posted on 08/04/2010 7:00:54 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: Eagles6

No shortage of fingers in the pot. On mny ways this is a proxy war and many, many groups will see our withdrawl as evidence of how vulnerable we are.


29 posted on 08/04/2010 7:04:12 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan
On mny ways ...

One of many ways ...

I need to look more while typing.

30 posted on 08/04/2010 7:05:16 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Thunder90

Petraeus had the perfect opportunity to protect his men when Zero went knocking on his door. He needed Petraeus who should have used the opportunity to secure a promise that he would be able to execute the war successfully. Now we learn the same stupid ROE’s that McCrystal came up with and promoted are in place. All while casualties mount PROVING IT IS A FLAWED PLAN. How that is “staying to protect his men as best he can” is escaping me.


31 posted on 08/04/2010 7:05:55 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: Pan_Yan

Strike one................... =.=


32 posted on 08/04/2010 7:07:01 PM PDT by cranked
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To: Conservative9

Is their one and only job to kill Osama bin Laden?


33 posted on 08/04/2010 7:08:28 PM PDT by Pan_Yan
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To: Pan_Yan

Yep.


34 posted on 08/04/2010 7:09:51 PM PDT by Eagles6 ( Typical White Guy: Christian, Constitutionalist, Heterosexual, Redneck.)
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To: Pan_Yan
Good evening.

Afghanistan commander Army Gen. David Petraeus has renewed orders to American troops to refrain from calling in artillery or air power when battling Taliban forces unless they're certain that no civilians are present.

May as well pull our forces out of Afghanistan. If we are not going to kill the enemy and break their will, what is the sense in being there?

5.56mm

35 posted on 08/04/2010 7:12:28 PM PDT by M Kehoe
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To: Pan_Yan

Their job is to destroy the Taliban. It will never work because they keep coming in from Iran, Pakistan and who knows were. So the only “job” that will be effective is to make them pay such a high price they will never bother us again. If they do the price goes up. It may need to be done every generation. These satan worshipers have been doing this for 6000 years. We do this with bombs: great big, miserable, horrifying bombs. Bring our men home. Not just because we have a son there, but because it is the only thing terrorist understand. It is the closest thing to victory we will ever see until Jesus comes back.


36 posted on 08/04/2010 7:18:05 PM PDT by Conservative9
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To: AdmSmith; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; bigheadfred; blueyon; Convert from ECUSA; dervish; ...
...to refrain from calling in artillery or air power when battling Taliban forces unless they're certain that no civilians are present.
The most effective implementation of this is to reclassify all enemy KIAs as combatants. Otherwise, Petraeus has become tits on a boar, and needs to retire, now.
37 posted on 08/04/2010 7:24:01 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("Fools learn from experience. I prefer to learn from the experience of others." -- Otto von Bismarck)
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To: surfer
No other nation on earth comes even close to our rules of engagement.

Try Israel.

38 posted on 08/04/2010 7:42:40 PM PDT by Carry_Okie (The RINOcrat Party is still in charge. There has never been a conservative American government.)
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To: Pan_Yan

A sweet and sour decision. Sweet on having a local Afghani with your troops. It worked in Vietnam and civilian casualties dropped with better intell.

Sour in that a few good heavy air and artillery strikes on a Taliban-held compound kill all the enemy and act as a warning to civilians to get out of Dodge if the know that the Taliban is in the area.

There will be some civilian casualties, but the locals can then tell the Taliban that they are not welcomed because of the guaranteed devastation they will bring on them.

If the Taliban refuse, the locals have a lot of hidden guns, and they are starting to turn them on the unwelcomed intruders.

If they are welcomes intruders, then the local have to pay.

War is hell, not a f*king tea party.


39 posted on 08/04/2010 8:15:05 PM PDT by MadMax, the Grinning Reaper
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To: Pan_Yan; xzins
It's time to leave Afghanistan.

It was a good effort and our troops are to be commended for their gallantry, but unless our Country's resolve is to actually WIN a war, we have no business fighting them.

40 posted on 08/04/2010 8:34:00 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: Pan_Yan

Obama IS the boss.


41 posted on 08/04/2010 9:03:53 PM PDT by rockinqsranch (Liberalism draws criminals as excrement draws flies. Liberals are only good for bait.)
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To: Pan_Yan
So you support the decision to sacrifice coalition forces who are bogged down in a firefight for “the greater good” of protecting opium farmers as well as those other civilians who get paid by and coerced into helping the Taliban? I am sure your moral superiority is comforting for FReepers who have family, like myself, risking their lives in Afghan.

COIN is a waste of resources, lives, time, and energy. COIN is simply an intellectual pipe-dream, especially in a tribal environment.

The United States has to literally bribe the civilians not to plant IEDs or other crude explosive devices because no matter how far we bend over backwards to show “kindness”, they hate our western Christian guts. It would be more efficient if brutality reigned, because that is how respect becomes “respected” over there (Just ask the Islamic Taliban). Of course that is not our style so the locals take advantage over the American taxpayer.

42 posted on 08/04/2010 9:32:06 PM PDT by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians)
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To: Pan_Yan

Yes, and it’s a lose-lose situation.

Use more force - kill more civilians - create more resistance.

Use less force so as not to kill a lot of civilians - increase losses for our own troops - increase the power of the enemy.

We should have bombed the mountainous border regions flat and then left. Once the troops were on the ground, the outcome was predictable. Invading Iraq and Afghanistan were the dumbest military moves since Custer decided to pimp with some Indians.

What is a win now? Keeping the crook Karzai in power? Does anyone really think we can turn this place into a civilized country?


43 posted on 08/04/2010 10:26:55 PM PDT by Pining_4_TX
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To: vbmoneyspender

Shades of Nam. We better get out of there Obama is Johnson all over again. After hearing this one it is time to get outta there.


44 posted on 08/05/2010 12:32:20 AM PDT by screaminsunshine (m)
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To: P-Marlowe; Pan_Yan; SandRat

I agree. There is nothing worse than an administration that is willing to let our soldiers bleed but is not willing to let them win.


45 posted on 08/05/2010 2:30:17 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Pan_Yan

Outrageous.

The traitor who ordered this
INFORMED the enemy how to avoid return fire.


46 posted on 08/05/2010 3:00:53 AM PDT by Diogenesis (“Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God” - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pan_Yan

A majority of all combat-related U.S. casualties in the nine-year-long war in Afghanistan
have occurred since President Barack Obama was inaugurated 17 months ago

47 posted on 08/05/2010 3:02:44 AM PDT by Diogenesis (“Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God” - Thomas Jefferson)
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To: Pan_Yan

Petraeus is a huge disappontment. Another political general officier who sees hmself as a manager first. The warrior part is a distant 5th or 6th in this man’s priorities.

His first priority is to please the boss—even it puts our solidiers at risk. He’s no better than McChrystal.

This idiot would have been fraged in Vietnam. In WWII he would never would have gotten to full col. let alone general officer. Those military leader’s only priority was to win the war.


48 posted on 08/05/2010 4:32:50 AM PDT by dools007
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To: Pan_Yan

In war there are never any good choices. Any decision you make to win the war will inherently result in American soldier deaths. It usually will produce collateral damage as well. Of course the Islamic terrorists up the ante on that by using noncombatants (or pretend noncombatants) as shields.

Islamoterroists have vowed to convert, enslave or kill infidels. Which part of that do you not believe? And there is no doubt they are doing it. Which part of that do you not believe. So, what exactly do we gain by restraining our combat power under the ludicrous belief that if we are nice to these idiots they’ll return the favor.

Oh, and lets not forget that the absolute lack of any meaningful rejection of the jihadis by the larger Muslim population.

So its not a question of finding “good” choices. It’s about employing winning tactics and strategies to win. It really is as simple as that.


49 posted on 08/05/2010 4:43:24 AM PDT by dools007
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To: Thunder90

People like Petraeus and McChrystal are part of the problem. Oh, and if’he’s going to resign why not do it now?


50 posted on 08/05/2010 4:45:32 AM PDT by dools007
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