St. Louis Police Seek Help Identifying Would-Be Robber in Saggy Jeans

riverfronttimes ^ | 5 Aug. 2010 | Chad Garrison

[heartwood]

If a pistol takes shotgun shells, why doesn’t it count as a sawed-off shotgun?

That is one cool pistol btw.

[G Larry]

To clarify:
I’m a licensed CCW holder and love packin’ my Sig P220 Carry.
An incident in downtown Denver a few years ago, made me recognize that there are situations, especially seated in car, when just can’t bring your weapon into action fast enough.

[ExSoldier]

Somebody has a gun pointed at you and you think you can raise and fire before he does?

Believe it or not, it happens all the time. Remember a few things and I know this because I used to be a State Parole Officer, so I'm used to close contact with murderers and other nefarious characters. They usually think they're in control, total control. They don't at any level expect resistance, if they did, they'd go someplace else. So it is totally possible, even probable that you will emerge the victor in such an exchange. Especially if your first shot is from a judge as in the video I posted and that first round hits the face. You think he's going to be in any condition to do anything (even reflexively pull the trigger) with his face literally removed? Read my about page for some other ideas along this line. Look, I am 100% SHEEPDOG and have a pretty iron cast credo concerning these kinds of situations. I have the training and the experience to back that up and I simply refuse to be a victim on any level.

[ExSoldier]

No offense, Larry, but THIS is where I'm coming from:

The Defender’s Creed by John Farnam

I accept and understand that human predators exist. Criminal or terrorist, they take advantage of our civilized society to prey upon the weak. They represent evil and must be confronted and defeated.

I believe that self-defense is a moral imperative, and that illegitimate force and illegal violence must be met with righteous indignation and superior violence.

I will not rely on others for the security of myself, my family and my community.

I proudly proclaim that I run with a like-minded pack. I do not amble through life with the mind numbed herd.

MY AMERICAN OATH

I will train with my chosen weapons, maintain them and carry them in a condition of readiness at all times.

I will be mentally prepared and physically equipped to effectively respond to an attack or emergency.

I will constantly test myself against realistic standards to discover my strengths and weaknesses. I will turn weakness into strength.

I will seek to learn new skills and techniques, and then teach what I have learned to other members of the pack.

Be it with firearm or blade, empty hand or blunt object, I will hit my enemies hard, fast and true.

I will live a quiet and unobtrusive life, but I will develop and retain the capacity for swift and decisive violence.

I recognize that I am the modern equivalent of the traditional Minuteman, and that I may be called to service at any time against heavily armed enemies. I will respond effectively.

I accept that I am a pariah among some of my countrymen, and a quaint anachronism to others. I will not hold their ignorance against them.

I will win, or die trying.

I swear this creed before God, my family and my fellow citizens.

“Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.”

“Somewhere a True Believer is training to kill you. He is training with minimum food or water, in austere conditions, day and night. The only thing clean on him is his weapon. He doesn’t worry about what workout to do---his rucksack weighs what it weighs, and he runs until the enemy stops chasing him.

The True Believer doesn’t care “how hard it is”; he knows he either wins or he dies. He doesn’t go home at 1700; he is home. He knows only the Cause. Now, who wants to quit?”

Eleven Rules
1. Practice your skill at arms diligently and with proper intent seeking excellence in all endeavors.
2. Always be prepared to do battle for the cause of freedom, justice, and all that is good.
3. Never be silent among the voices of falsehood no matter the number, for truth shall be your shield against harm.
4. Be willing to endure hardship, pain, or even death to protect women, children and the defenseless against harm.
5. Always act in a noble and chivalrous manner, worthy of respect and honor.
6. Always keep your weapons safe, clean and at the ready should they be needed.
7. Never use force of arms or force of will for any unjust purpose.
8. Obey the laws of the land if they be not contrary to the higher laws of morals, ethics, and truth.
9. Thou shalt be everywhere and always, the champion of the right and good against injustice and evil, being always mindful to temper justice with mercy.
10. Thou shalt never recoil before thine enemy.
11. Never abandon a friend, ally, fellow member of the order or a noble cause and remain loyal to one’s friends, family, and those who lay their trust in thee.

[G Larry]

High ideals!
Bravo if you can live up to them.

For the other 99.5% of the Freepers, hitting the gas is the best option, with a weapon pointed at you.

[ExSoldier]

I think you're putting down a lot of freedom loving sheepdog freepers. You want to count yourself among the sheep be my guest, but there are tons of freepers who are far above me in my meager skills that I think would easily hand a punk his head and innards. Folks here with real skills. SEAL types, airborne rangers law enforcement folks. You sound a little bit like those cops who are always trying to patronize folks by gently simpering: Nothing is worth your life, just roll over and submit... let the police handle it...

[G Larry]

Did you miss the post where I stated that I carry?

One is NOT a “sheep” for not having a weapon in the correct hand at the moment somebody shoves a gun in their face!

[MHGinTN]

“I will live a quiet and unobtrusive life, but I will develop and retain the capacity for swift and decisive violence.” Amen to that, brother. Semper Fi

[ExSoldier]

Once upon a time folks carried because it was an item of clothing, like a hat or a reason to wear a belt. Having a gun on you does not mean you have the training or mindset to use it properly when the time comes. MINDSET being the key word. Your advice when armed is to attempt retreat, begging to be shot in the back! That is the mindset of SHEEP.

[G Larry]

YOU are a clown!
The situation under discussion is a woman sitting in a car at drive through ATM.
It would be very unusual for someone sitting in a car at an ATM to have a gun in one hand.
Even with YOUR esteemed training, YOU would have had less than a 50/50 chance of killing the perp before he killed you.
The odds are that your pride would have got you killed.
You can spend all day attempting to label me a “sheep”.
The fact is most Freepers would be dead taking your advice.
Most would be alive taking mine.

[ExSoldier]

A bit sensitive, are we? Feeling sheepish? LOL I'm just putting you on. You've been around here near as long as I have, so don't get your panties in a bunch because we disagree. I put this on a "gun" board for reference purposes but I didn't put any of your comments, just that we'd disagreed. Here is the first response:

"I like to hope that myself and most people here wouldn't be in condition white to start with. We'd notice a guy with a gun approaching, or at minimum notice a shady character walking towards your car at a drive-up ATM, and take appropriate measures -- either drive off right then before he reaches the car (preferred), or discreetly draw and have it waiting for him to be used as soon as he displays a weapon."

I have to agree with that, G. I teach situational awareness in my ccw permit classes. I'm an NRA certified firearms instructor with 21+ years of experience and a former law enforcement officer as well as being a former US Army Infantry Captain. I practice what I preach, too. I am hyper aware whenever I have to do business near an ATM and typically if my wife is with me, she is on sentry duty watching the area 360 degrees: near, mid range and far. I live in a town where ATM robberies are pretty common (Miami, FL) and I'll never forget the murder that occurred at a drive thru ATM near my home when I was first married 23 years ago. I had a ccw permit, then, too. That was when me and the wife worked out that "sentry system." It works extremely well and is seamless in action. I pull up to an ATM and even before I stop, she's giving me info: "Guy walking to his car -- 20 meters. Couple exiting the bank headed our way 30 meters. Teenage kid crossing behind us headed away 10 meters..." OR every once in awhile, she'll say as we start to pull into an area: "There's a group of salty looking punks there, let's go somewhere else!" and I just apply the gas and we cruise out of the area.

I work in an inner city high school with gangs all around me (even MS13 operating within a few blocks) and my wife is a retired teacher from the public system who now teaches in a charter school, so she knows the punk look very well, too. I've been in the inner city for 15 of my 21+ years in the system. Before that I was a State Parole Officer, which I've always considered to be pretty good prep for being a teacher in a tough school. The army helped, too. lol.

Probably you are correct, an unarmed SHEEP a real sheep (NOT necessarily you) would be better served to haul a$$ and get out of there with a good probability of survival and maybe even being unscathed.

As far as you are concerned, you mentioned an incident you had in Denver (ever seen that movie: Ten things to do in Denver when you're Dead?) that had an effect on you. I've been in "situations" too, a few times when I was behind the wheel and although I was shaken as any normal guy would be, I emerged on top every time. A few of those required a police report. One even required a court appearance as a witness and a few were just like that chance meeting in the night, only those in the event aware of the circumstances and outcomes. No harm, no foul. Just a realization that one party has an agenda of aggression and the other party is ready to meet the aggression but would prefer not to, however, if push comes to shove it's SHEEPDOG and NOT sheep, versus wolf. Wolves don't like sheepdogs. Did you read the essay? You're probably a sheepdog, too.

[ExSoldier]

Fair is fair, here is an example of the overwhelming response from the other site and the most amusing. I thought you'd appreciate it:

Open door, roll out, take cover, draw, then do a cool guy hoodslide while shooting at the BG, miss every shot, reload and shot him once in the head . . . . yeah . . . Oh wait you mean for real? Just book it man, like the old lady did.

LOL That was classic. Understand, I'm not a mall ninja here, nor am I advocating being felony stupid, but in some circumstances, it might be better to draw instead of flee. We don't always get to play the hand we want but rather the one we're dealt. What happens if the traffic doesn't permit a fast getaway? Or if they're pedestrians in the way? You just going to mow them all down? I don't think so either. In this case, it was the right call. You, me or the next guy? Maybe something else. Either it's your day to "go" or it's not. That's why I believe in Christ. So I don't really have to worry, ya know?

[G Larry]

Very Cool!

Thanks for the feedback.

I did assume the you and I would handle situational awareness different than the little old lady.

I’m all for takin’ out the garbage, but the little training I’ve had with live fire rubber bullets, on real human beings, tells me that its easy to make fatal mistakes in high stress situations.