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To The Tea Party (And Related Organizations) [Major BARF Alert - JimRob]
Market Ticker ^ | 29 August 2010 | Karl Denninger

Posted on 08/29/2010 9:24:21 PM PDT by Lorianne

You're not going to want to hear this.

Nonetheless, you have to.

If you want to win - indeed, if you want to make any sort of serious inroad into the American Political Process, you need to read this, you need to listen, and you need to adopt this path.

If you do not, you will be marginalized into irrelevance, no matter what else you do.

Here it is:

You must discard - intentionally - all "wedge issues" as points of debate, discussion, or campaigning. You know what these issues are - they fall broadly into the category of religion in one form or another.

These are issues such as abortion and gay rights (in all it's forms, including marriage debates), but is by no means limited to these two. In short, if there's a religious basis for your position, you must not campaign on it, and indeed you must pointedly refuse to discuss it.

The Tea Party began as a protest over bailouts and handouts - that is, theft and corruption within our markets, government and economy. This is a winning position with 90% of the American Body Politic.

Any candidate who runs on these issues - and these issues alone, promising to stop it and lock up the scammers - all of them - wins.

As soon as you bring the other issues that everyone wants to talk about into this, you will lose.

Here's why.

These are called "wedge issues" for a reason.

What you personally believe is irrelevant to the political process. These issues are used by the two main political parties to get the electorate to divide on a 50/50 basis - thus leaving them having to persuade exactly one person of their position on some other issue to win.

You cannot win such a contest. At best you can force one of the other parties - the one that most agrees with you - to lose. The reason is simple - you will split that half of the electorate, which means the other party - the one that disagrees with your position on those issues - wins the election.

Drill this into your head folks:

If you allow these issues to become part of your campaign, you will not only lose you will cause the party that most-agrees with you to lose.

I know this is going to be unpopular, but it needs to be said. I've seen this happening in some of the local Tea Party groups, and it saddens me. The local Niceville branch here featured people talking about "natural law" as an important qualifying factor for political candidacy, as just one of many examples. There were times I felt like I had walked into a Baptist sermon.

The Tea Party and other political expressions like it are, of course, free to run on whatever platform they'd like, and to back candidates based on whatever they'd like. But if you're going to do this, then you'd be wise to try to take over the Republican Party instead of being "independent" or any other sort of "outside" influence, because it is the only way you can win with this approach.

The Tea Party infiltrating The Republican establishment is a long shot. Witness John McCain, who made a campaign spectacle out of bailing out the banks. How's JD Hayworth doing in challenging him? He lost, right? How'd that happen? The same way it always happens: Hayworth let the campaign's terms include those wedge issues, and then got tattoed by the guy with the bigger warchest and the ability to threaten people politically.

You either change the terms of the debate and the issues upon which the election is decided or you lose.

It's that simple.

(excerpted)


TOPICS: Government; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: denninger; moralabsolutes; partyofrhinos; progressives; ticker
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Can't agree more.
1 posted on 08/29/2010 9:24:23 PM PDT by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne

Dittos.


2 posted on 08/29/2010 9:28:56 PM PDT by caper gal 1 (November 2010 . . . America's last chance for survival.)
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To: Lorianne

Couldn’t agree less.


3 posted on 08/29/2010 9:30:06 PM PDT by Kimberly GG ("Path to Citizenship" Amnesty candidates will NOT get my vote! DeMint, 2012)
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To: Lorianne

I agree also - for the Tea Party. And that it should eschew a leadership hierarchy. I hope that it remains focused on small government and economic freedom.

At the same time I believe a political party and politicians have to state their positions on all issues in the political arena.

Political parties and the Tea Party may overlap. But I agree with the general point of the article. To win we should focus on the issue that unites the greatest number in opposing our common enemy.

I don’t care if someone is a flaming whatever that supports abortion and gay marriage, if they will vote against big government and throw the bums out in November, I welcome their vote.


4 posted on 08/29/2010 9:30:24 PM PDT by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: Lorianne
Ah, the Mitch Daniels option.

Sorry, no deal. Any Republican that ignores abortion and traditional marriage won't get elected dog catcher.

5 posted on 08/29/2010 9:30:24 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Mexico is the U.S. version of Hamas)
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To: Lorianne

Neither can I


6 posted on 08/29/2010 9:30:39 PM PDT by libertarian27 (Ingsoc: Department of Life, Department of Liberty, Department of Happiness)
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To: Lorianne

It’s harsh but true. The message needs to be simplified and stuck to in order to counter what the Dems will try to do with the wedge issues.

One person on Denningers board told about the 3 pronged position that the Carolina Tea Party is using. It’s something like:

- Fiscal responsibility
- Limited government
- Follow the Constitution

I’d like to add “Root out fraud and corruption” to that.

What scares me is that if we fall prey to the lure of the wedge issues and lose we won’t have a country to argue about anymore.


7 posted on 08/29/2010 9:31:28 PM PDT by LizardQueen (The world is not out to get you, except in the sense that the world is out to get everyone.)
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To: Lorianne

Over my dead body.


8 posted on 08/29/2010 9:31:51 PM PDT by Jim Robinson (JUST VOTE THEM OUT! teapartyexpress.org)
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To: Jim Robinson

This thread is in need of a MAJOR BARF ALERT !


9 posted on 08/29/2010 9:33:44 PM PDT by Kimberly GG ("Path to Citizenship" Amnesty candidates will NOT get my vote! DeMint, 2012)
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To: Lorianne
I 100% disagree. Only cowards avoid taking a stand on social issues. They are just as relevant and dangerous as the economy and national security. Even if our economic woes were miraculously corrected overnight, issues such as illegal scumbag aliens and homo marriage would still eventually tear our society apart.

Scouts Out! Cavalry Ho!

10 posted on 08/29/2010 9:35:45 PM PDT by wku man (Steel yourselves, patriots, and be ready. Won't be long now....)
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To: Lorianne

Oy. I agree, but I know there’s a lot of Freepers who want the Tea Party to get all religious. The proprietor has already weighed in with his very strong opinion, so no doubt the ostracism is coming from the majority soon.


11 posted on 08/29/2010 9:36:26 PM PDT by thecabal (Destroy Progressivism)
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To: Lorianne

What if my belief in smaller government and less taxes is religiously based, can I not talk about that either?

In the end, all my political positions originates from my belief in unalienable rights of man endowed by their creator. Without that I can’t really say that any form of government how ever repressive is “wrong”.


12 posted on 08/29/2010 9:37:06 PM PDT by Truthsearcher
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To: wku man

You cannot effect any change on social issues if you don’t WIN.


13 posted on 08/29/2010 9:37:56 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne

Time for Our Constitution to SING!

God, honor, life and liberty.

Wedge issues?

You betcha!

Ours and theirs.


14 posted on 08/29/2010 9:38:09 PM PDT by onyx (If you support Sarah and want on her Ping List, let me know!)
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To: D-fendr
To win we should focus on the issue that unites the greatest number in opposing our common enemy.

Without social conservatives, the Republican will lose by default.

I don’t care if someone is a flaming whatever that supports abortion and gay marriage, if they will vote against big government and throw the bums out in November, I welcome their vote.

We've tried the fiscal conservative/social liberal Republican (See RINOLD in CA) before. It has failed miserably. At the least, I will accept a Governor McDonnell of Virginia campaign strategy of proudly stating his social conservatism but focused on taxes and spending. However, any Republican that de-emphasizes abortion and homosexual marriage might as well concede before the votes are counted.

15 posted on 08/29/2010 9:38:32 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Mexico is the U.S. version of Hamas)
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To: Lorianne

Abortion is not a religious issue. It is a human rights issue. The same as slavery. Just because something is supported by people of faith does not mean the issue itself is religious.


16 posted on 08/29/2010 9:39:07 PM PDT by SHOOT THE MOON bat (Hey White House liar. Truth comes out a little at a time.)
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To: Lorianne

Is this a recommendation for the Tea Party or for politicians? If for the Tea Party it’s quite presumptuous to assume they need to be lectured since they were formed on the issue of small government and less taxes and therefore are a specialized interest group. I would agree breaking from the principle that binds them no matter what the issue would be stupid. However if this is about what politicians should do...then FORGET IT. In case you would like to forget, the majority now considers themselves pro-life, support traditional marriage, support enforcing borders, support no mosque at Ground zero and consider themselves Christian. If these issues make YOU uncomforyable..YOUR problem. If a politician chooses to strike against the American people on MAJORITY issues...don’t count on the support of nother conservatives who don’t consider money their sole guiding principle for support.


17 posted on 08/29/2010 9:39:10 PM PDT by Soul Seeker (?)
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To: Lorianne

How many campaigns has Karl run and won?


18 posted on 08/29/2010 9:39:31 PM PDT by PetroniusMaximus
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To: LizardQueen
What scares me is that if we fall prey to the lure of the wedge issues and lose we won’t have a country to argue about anymore.

Thank you! That can't be stated enough. If we intend to restore this country to Constitutional governance using the ballot box, this is the only way to do it.

But I'm sure it will feel great to have that feeling of moral superiority to warm your empty belly as you sit in the rubble of your ruined Marxist country.

19 posted on 08/29/2010 9:41:03 PM PDT by thecabal (Destroy Progressivism)
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To: Lorianne

Denninger supported Obama, which is why I take his periodic hair-on-fire diatribes with a grain of salt.


20 posted on 08/29/2010 9:41:31 PM PDT by RegulatorCountry
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To: Jim Robinson
The comments at Denninger’s are vile...they REALLY hate Christians, Southerners, and conservatives, at his site.
21 posted on 08/29/2010 9:42:04 PM PDT by roses of sharon (I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13)
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To: Soul Seeker

And just for the record...way I hear it advocating for less governnment, cutting spending and cutting taxes makes you a right wing extremist. There is NO issue that isn’t considered a wedge issue by some MINORITY group out there. People who are uncomfortable by the other issues may like to think themselves “reasonable” but in truth they label you just as extreme.


22 posted on 08/29/2010 9:42:23 PM PDT by Soul Seeker (?)
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To: SHOOT THE MOON bat

I agree abortion is not a necessarily a religious issue. But it is framed as such so much so that you can’t fight that battle and all the other battles and win.

I am 100% pro-Life ... but I think Denninger is right on getting elected you must stick to fiscal issues, which can be a big winner right now more than ever.


23 posted on 08/29/2010 9:42:59 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne
You cannot effect any change on social issues if you don’t WIN.

Sure you can. Both the pro-life movement & traditional marriage proponents have been very effective, passing DOMA in the 90s and outlawing partial-birth abortion. Also working on public opinion which shows more people support traditional marriages and younger people being pro-life.

If a Republican disregards life and supports homosexual marriage, how are we to trust him on other issues that matter? Giving benefits to homosexual couples and funding Planned Parenthood isn't fiscal conservatism.

24 posted on 08/29/2010 9:43:35 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Mexico is the U.S. version of Hamas)
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To: Lorianne

“Witness John McCain, who made a campaign spectacle out of bailing out the banks. How’s JD Hayworth doing in challenging him? He lost, right? How’d that happen? The same way it always happens: Hayworth let the campaign’s terms include those wedge issues, and then got tattoed by the guy with the bigger warchest and the ability to threaten people politically.”

I’m thinking about the issues raised here but the above statement is incorrect.

JD was outspent 10 to 1, made some tactical errors, did not have GOP in AZ behind him from the outset, had Sara Palin support Juan, had media outlets against him. When his infamous “Free Government Money InfoCommercial” came out, he never recovered. These factors do not translate or abstract into a more valid general assessment of election dynamics. JMHO (as a JD supporter here in AZ)


25 posted on 08/29/2010 9:43:53 PM PDT by J Edgar
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To: roses of sharon

How so? Most I saw are pro-life and say they are Christians.


26 posted on 08/29/2010 9:44:06 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne

November is a battle not the war. They’ve been preparing for 60 years. For all you old hippies out there remember Don Juan (Time cover & all that — the old Yaqui Indian eating mushrooms and dispensing wisdom to the washed): a warrior has only his will and his patience.


27 posted on 08/29/2010 9:44:16 PM PDT by Bhoy
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To: wku man

Agree


28 posted on 08/29/2010 9:44:55 PM PDT by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Lorianne

Not all of them but there are Econocons so glued to their stock tickers, that is all they see. If only the economic system were changed to their liking, if only we had this or that new law or this or that law repealed or this or that law enforced, unicorns would be dancing in the streets passing out lollipops. They see nothing beyond their little material world and they are extremely intolerant of those who know that culture and morality, not law, determines the success of a society.


29 posted on 08/29/2010 9:45:18 PM PDT by Brugmansian
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To: Extremely Extreme Extremist

You don’t have to support abortion or gay marriage.
Focus on fiscal issues doesn’t mean you don’t have those other values. It’s not either/or.


30 posted on 08/29/2010 9:46:37 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne

As usual, Karl is right on the money.


31 posted on 08/29/2010 9:46:42 PM PDT by WackySam (To argue with a man who has renounced his reason is like giving medicine to the dead.)
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To: Lorianne

You cannot effect any change on social issues if you don’t WIN.

So we become like Obama, without raising the taxes so high or restricting our liberties quite as much? Obamalite?

32 posted on 08/29/2010 9:46:57 PM PDT by garybob (More sweat in training, less blood in combat.)
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To: Lorianne

Maybe I will have to read further...I started on the “Last” page, and worked my way up...had to stop, thought it was like DU.


33 posted on 08/29/2010 9:47:53 PM PDT by roses of sharon (I can do all things through Him who strengthens me. Philippians 4:13)
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To: Lorianne
Who's interests is Karl looking out for anyway?

I doubt he gives a damn about the Tea Party. Seems to me he's trying to drive a wedge in a movement where none exists. Tea Party folks are already socially conservative.

Same old divide-and-conquer BS. And you're falling for it, Lorianne.

34 posted on 08/29/2010 9:47:53 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Mexico is the U.S. version of Hamas)
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To: Lorianne

This is right on the money. Every one of our conservative candidates could win with five canned issues and answers, no matter what the questions asked are. All questions to a conservative candidate from the media are asked simply to trip up the candidate and try to pin various extremest labels on them.

Here’s the five answers:

1. I’ll vote to reduce taxes and reduce spending.

2. I’ll vote to reduce regulation, including green house gas regulations.

3. I’ll vote for a strong military and for strong protection of our borders.

4. I’ll vote for strong methods for protecting our country from terrorist and other enemies.

5. I’ll vote to repeal ObamaCare and then vote to replace it with honest reform.

Say, and really believe, these four things and nothing more and you will be elected. The rest and come after you are elected.


35 posted on 08/29/2010 9:48:10 PM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Made from the Right Stuff!)
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To: Lorianne

Agree - 100%

Every social issue that is brought into the conversation loses some fraction of the people in the movement. You may say good riddance, but you’d be diluting the impact of the movement - and the more issues you add, the more irrelevant the movement becomes.


36 posted on 08/29/2010 9:48:20 PM PDT by StatenIsland (If we insist that 99 1/2 wonÂ’t do, gotta have a hundred, we will again wind up with zero.)
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To: Lorianne

NO!

I will NOT compromise my values to make nice with the Democrat butt-kissing RINO GOP. Time for the GOP to choose where they want to be instead.


37 posted on 08/29/2010 9:48:33 PM PDT by Proud2BeRight
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To: RegulatorCountry

And he is now active in the Tea Party as are other Obama voters.
Why make enemies?


38 posted on 08/29/2010 9:48:45 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne

I don’t agree.

I can do “lesser of evil” calculations as well as anyone.

But I’m looking for the whole package. If you don’t get “natural law” you probably don’t get the constitution either. If your morality is rooted in the culture rather than the transcendant you don’t have anyway of knowing when the culture has gone off the rails.

So, no, I’m not going to ignore the moral order. Separate from the moral order liberty can’t sustain itself. If a McCain is all we’ve got to go up against a raving communist, then fine, but the fact that after all of the backstabbing McCain has done, Arizonans reward him with high office, is itself evidence of a much deeper problem.

If you keep losing at the political level its because you’ve already lost at the deeper moral level. Your response has to be on both levels. You’ll never turn it around, though, if you can’t speak to the deeper moral law. Its not just about winning, if winning means electing people like McCain. You have to persuade and win with people who truly represent your views.

Is reelecting McCain a victory? For who, besides McCain?


39 posted on 08/29/2010 9:49:46 PM PDT by marron
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To: garybob

No. You don’t have to abandon your values in order to focus first and foremost on fiscal issues,

It’s not either/or.


40 posted on 08/29/2010 9:50:59 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne
Anti-gay marriage referendums have passed in many states with healthy margins...it is a proven winner politically.
41 posted on 08/29/2010 9:51:12 PM PDT by Tex-Con-Man
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To: Lorianne

For someone who detests “religious” issues, Karl Denninger is sure preachy. Sorry, Karl, I want to know where a candidate stands on the issues of abortion and marriage. If they aren’t willing to take a principled stand, I’m not willing to lend my support or vote for them.


42 posted on 08/29/2010 9:52:48 PM PDT by upsdriver (ret.)
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To: Lorianne

The author is correct.


43 posted on 08/29/2010 9:53:10 PM PDT by sourcery (United We Stand, Divided We Fall: You have to give in order to get)
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To: Lorianne
but I think Denninger is right on getting elected you must stick to fiscal issues

No, Denniger is full of feces because the Tea Party Republican candidates are also social conservatives. This is a red herring. Name one candidate backed by the Tea Party who is pro-abortion or supports homo marriage. There ain't any.

Don't fall for this divide-and-conquer BS. The Left has already tried to isolate the evangelicals from the Tea Party movement here and here.

44 posted on 08/29/2010 9:53:13 PM PDT by Extremely Extreme Extremist (Mexico is the U.S. version of Hamas)
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To: Lorianne

Giving up our social core values is got us here in the first place.

Pray for America


45 posted on 08/29/2010 9:53:24 PM PDT by bray (A fun read: http://www.brayincandy.com/id239.html)
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To: LizardQueen; Lorraine

so true....that approach is NOT compromising principles.

It is merely getting enough votes to get members in congress who will get this country out of the liberal deluge.

We can’t come off like self righteous, pompous, holier than thou idiots and expect respect....or votes.


46 posted on 08/29/2010 9:53:36 PM PDT by Dudoight
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To: Truthsearcher

Here! Here! Exactly what the founders said too. Without virtue, without a moral electorate, a republic will not endure. Some econcons and some libertarians always throw up a straw man here. Any mention of this is pushing religion, getting in people’s faces, peeking into their bedrooms. It is not. All we are saying is there are higher values than the buck and contractual obligations and if those values disapear, kiss goodbye to everything. The rich will overpower the weak, the corrupt dominate the virtuous and everything will fall apart.


47 posted on 08/29/2010 9:53:39 PM PDT by Brugmansian
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To: marron

It’s not either or.
It not that you don’t get natural law or don’t want moral order ... it’s that you want to strategically put more weight on fiscal issues ... in order to win.

Fiscal issues are a big winner at this point with many Democrats worried about tax and spend ... why not capitalize on that? You don’t have to toss your values in the trash to capitalize on a winning issue.


48 posted on 08/29/2010 9:54:10 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Lorianne

“You cannot effect any change on social issues if you don’t WIN.”

You said it Lorraine!


49 posted on 08/29/2010 9:55:07 PM PDT by Dudoight
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To: bray

It’s not either or.
You don’t have to give up any values.


50 posted on 08/29/2010 9:55:26 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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