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Iraqis want American to stay
London Telegraph (U.K.) ^ | August 30, 2010 | Richard Spencer

Posted on 08/30/2010 1:42:51 PM PDT by Schnucki

Six years ago, Sheikh Mohammed Naji led his tribe in Iraq’s greatest battle against the Americans. Now they are leaving, and he would much prefer that they were not.

“I fought the Americans, and I consider that a matter of dignity,” he said.

“They orphaned our children and turned our women into widows.

“But yes, now we want them to stay.”

That is the paradox of Fallujah, the city that saw the bitterest fighting of America’s seven years in Iraq. Its inhabitants regard the Americans with hatred, but say they represent their only insurance against the enemies by whom they are surrounded: al-Qaeda, the Iraqi government, and Iranian agents.

Other areas, by contrast, loyal to government, have the opposite problem.

They are grateful for the end of Saddam Hussein’s regime, but cannot wait for the Americans to leave to let them reap the spoils.

With the formal end of US combat operations at midnight, Iraqis know the world’s attention will be leaving them just as these different sides hover between peace and a return to vicious conflict.

In Fallujah, that means shopkeepers and police face a daily barrage of car bombs and hand grenades, even though the city is supposed to have been pacified since the 2004 battle when 15,000 US, Iraqi and British troops took the city from the insurgents.

Now al-Qaeda operatives have reinfiltrated the mainstream of city life – even, it is said, the police force.

“They were targeting the bank,” said Omar Ghazi, a 29-year-old shopkeeper pointing at the spot opposite where a car bomb exploded three days ago. Just up the road was the shell of a building destroyed by American bombs in 2004.

“For the last month there has been no business – the security situation is not stable enough.”

The greatest hope for

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: fallujah; iraq; naji

1 posted on 08/30/2010 1:42:57 PM PDT by Schnucki
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To: Schnucki
In Fallujah, that means shopkeepers and police face a daily barrage of car bombs and hand grenades, even though the city is supposed to have been pacified since the 2004 battle when 15,000 US, Iraqi and British troops took the city from the insurgents.

Senator John F. Kerry (D-Mass), traitor to the United States during the Vietnam War, calls that a nussiance level of terrorism.

He says you just need to learn to deal with it.

2 posted on 08/30/2010 1:49:45 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (Obama can’t spend all his time with his BC on his forehead, he’s busy fighting its release!)
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To: Schnucki

Everyone likes Uncle $am.


3 posted on 08/30/2010 1:50:07 PM PDT by ex-snook ("Above all things, truth beareth away the victory")
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To: Schnucki
As someone who spent a year in that hellhole I say let the place burn.

I was once all for bringing democracy to the middle-east but after having served there I truly understand, Neutron bombs are the only answer.

Oh and I would still vote for GW again if given the choice :)

4 posted on 08/30/2010 1:55:08 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: WyvernAK

Tell us why.

In the 90’s, I worked with a lot of Muslim diplomats to the UN. I still consider some of the my friends.

When GWB gave his speech about everyone wanting liberty, I thought, “Yes, that’s true. But the real question is, in the Middle East, are they willing to honor their neighbor’s desire for liberty?”

But then, I think of some of my friends, who work for governments in predominantly Muslim countries where they have shed blood to protect their secular governments from the Muslim Brotherhood.

And, I’ve been in Sudan, in meetings where they have called upon one of my fellow Christians to offer prayer in the name of Christ, and have been warm and accepting.

I don’t know what to think any more.


5 posted on 08/30/2010 1:59:29 PM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: Schnucki

when will we get the pictures of desperate people hanging onto American helicopters as they leave? we may as well pull out of afghan also. anyone there still loyal to our forces will be rethinking their future.


6 posted on 08/30/2010 2:00:05 PM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: lady lawyer
Trying to bring democracy to a region of the world were gaining power only means you get to rape your neighboors instead of them raping you is pointless. While in Iraq my company got Iraqis to turn in their own brothers for a PLASMA TV, and other goodies.
The saying in the middle east is Me against my brothers, me and my brothers against our cousins and me, my brothers and cousins against the world is the literal truth.
Maybe Neutron bombs are a little on the harsh side but they will never change from without. No one changed us, we had to do it ourselves and it has been proved again and again the only change from the outside works short of extremme action from the outside, read Japan and Germany circa WW2.

It was a noble effort to try, but maybe Kissenger was right.
Money and Power talks, bullshit and Democracy walks every time in most parts of the world.

7 posted on 08/30/2010 2:13:31 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: WyvernAK

Didn’t you meet any Iraqis who gave you hope?


8 posted on 08/30/2010 2:15:45 PM PDT by lady lawyer
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To: lady lawyer

Go talk to poor, ordinary Christians/Buddhists/Zoroastrians/Hindus etc in whatever country your muslim ‘friends’ are from. For some reason the muslims only seem to claim friendship with those non-muslims who have power, influence and glamour. For everyone else it’s 1938.

Don’t kid yourself. the muslims may be kind and generous to a glamourous western tourist or official. -That increases their status. That doesn’t mean they won’t abuse their poor Christian neighbours just because they can.


9 posted on 08/30/2010 2:18:02 PM PDT by LastNorwegian
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To: WyvernAK
LOl and that is not a quote from Kissinger.

Oh and the Sunni awakening counsels. At least in our AO they were nothing more then armed thugs that spent their free time competeing with the local Iraqi police to see who could run a better kidnapping ring. The only ones you could sorta even slightly trust were the IA and that was only because the Iraqi government keep locals from being assigned back home.

10 posted on 08/30/2010 2:20:39 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: lady lawyer
Sorry but no.
Oh I like more then a few, but they had every intention of going back to the the way things were just as soon as we left. Heck the guy I liked best was the IA Col. that worked with my platoon most days and he fought withe the Republican Guard during the invasion and told us to our face that it was just not going to work in his country. They really only want a strong man to bring some level of security, not democracy or freedom of religion. You are either a Muslim or you are not welcome. The only exception is if you have both money and guns. Then its only till you run out of one or the other.
11 posted on 08/30/2010 2:27:06 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: lady lawyer
Sorry but no.
Oh I like more then a few, but they had every intention of going back to the the way things were just as soon as we left. Heck the guy I liked best was the IA Col. that worked with my platoon most days and he fought withe the Republican Guard during the invasion and told us to our face that it was just not going to work in his country. They really only want a strong man to bring some level of security, not democracy or freedom of religion. You are either a Muslim or you are not welcome. The only exception is if you have both money and guns. Then its only till you run out of one or the other.
12 posted on 08/30/2010 2:27:10 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: WyvernAK; lady lawyer
Money and Power talks, bullshit and Democracy walks every time in most parts of the world.

How about Power and Democracy? Why can't that combination work? I truly believe the reason GWB's doctrine didn't work was because the leftists attacked it from the get-go -- those same people that after two years of hell plead that we give obummer MORE time! --and divided the nation and indeed the world from the most courageous bold plan to bring moderation and a modicum of democracy to M.E. EVER. Power combined with setting the foundations for democracy. Contrary to what most people are told it was done before and even TODAY in Islamic countries. It was done in Iran, it is done today in Turkey and other moderate Islamic countries. Now I know that you would say these countries did it on their own, but that's just an illusion. Powerful countries and especially western powers have ALWAYS had their hands into the ME politics, churning and machinating one way or another depending on their politics. Look at Iran and carter's damnable machinations.

No, I never buy the ignorant and self-serving liberal line about "change comes exclusively from within their own culture". It has a lot, and in the case of ME, perhaps EVERYTHING to do with the outside political culture and designs.

13 posted on 08/30/2010 2:41:05 PM PDT by parisa
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To: parisa
Turkey that required the military to all but sit on it for the better part of a century to even have a semblance at stability and is now that the army backed off sliding back into a slow spiral to theocracy.
Iran, that has the Revolutionary guard all but hand pick each new president? And spends its free time building ambassador of death unmanned drones and making statements that they will soon destroy Irsrial, the United States, Dilbert etc.

I do cheer on the democracy movements in Iran I think it will come to little, and just wait till they get the bomb.

And from your own point, the great powers have always tried to make changes in the middle east, you think they did anything within sanity distance of a good job? That right there should be held up for all time as the example of things made worse by meddling foreign powers.

14 posted on 08/30/2010 2:52:15 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: a fool in paradise

I suppose that is the same logic that allows the administration to look the other way on illegal immigration issues. Just a nuisance level of terrorism. If okay for Fallujah, it must be okay for Arizona and Texas.


15 posted on 08/30/2010 2:52:25 PM PDT by NEMDF
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To: Schnucki

I have a better alternative for the Iraqis: use the tools we gave you.

Because of the betrayal of the Vietnamese by the Democrat congress, sacrificing the lives of many valiant ARVN, from the very start of the rebuilding of Iraq, the US military was *determined* that the Iraq army would be able to defend its nation against any serious threat.

They have outdone themselves. The Iraqi Army now has 17 Divisions with some 200,000 soldiers, with training at all levels from the US Army and USMC. It has a complete set of schools, from basic training and branch schools, to Command and General Staff.

While military Divisions are common in the Middle East, they are almost all “paper” Divisions, with their largest functional units being Brigade sized. But the Iraqis have fully functional Division Commands, trained in Division operations. This is a huge advantage over separate Brigades on the battlefield.

That is, an Iraqi Division with four Brigades can likely beat an enemy with eight or more Brigades.

And most of these Iraqi units have been involved in real anti-insurgent operations. So they have considerable real-world experience, something also missing among the other armies of the region (excepting Israel).


16 posted on 08/30/2010 3:31:38 PM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: lady lawyer
In the 90’s, I worked with a lot of Muslim diplomats to the UN. I still consider some of the my friends.

1. Muslim diplomats

2. UN .....uhhh

3. friends?

These things do not relate.

--

There is a big difference in the treatment of Christians & Jews in a nation that is not "run" by Muslims. If you are a Dhemmi, that is another matter. Ask anyone who lives in a country where Muslims are the majority. (Batteries not included) Tolerance is not practiced. Hate is prevelant.

17 posted on 08/30/2010 3:32:14 PM PDT by Texas Fossil (Government, even in its best state is but a necessary evil; in its worst state an intolerable one.)
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To: WyvernAK
From my personal perspective Turkey is precisely the exaample of foreign powers deciding to be on the side of moderates and secularism and democracy. The reason for that? Turkey is vital to Europe; it has a foot in Europe and therefore European political expediency has always dictated keeping Turkey "moderate" and secularist.

In the case of Iran I am obviously NOT talking about the islamist takeover of the country. What I was referring to was Iran before the islamist takeover. Iran under the Pahlavi dynasty which was striving to achieve secularism and democratic rule of law until the damnable machination of that wicked scumbag carter. Yes, foreign meddling have made a muck up of ME, but like it or not, foreign powers will ALWAYS remain entrenched in ME politics -- if not western powers, eastern powers, Russia and China.

My point is that the muddle we are in is not a natural phenomena, but there has been geo-political status quo designs in play. George W. after 9/11 realized VERY ASTUTELY and correctly that the western status quo -- I can give you my reasons for what and why the seemingly counter-productive status quo that the west had pursued until 9/11, but it's long -- was unproductive and even dangerous for the west and it had to change. ME could NOT remain islamist, fundamentalist, authoritarian, undemocratic dominated any longer, and he set about trying to end it -- his mistake perhaps was that he was too honest and overt about his plans and his enemies, both domestic, and international (yes, Europe included) who saw their interests, and their lucrative links with the despotic regimes endangered, revolted against him and his doctrine and killed it.

So, you see, GW had his heart in the right place -- he wanted to change the western status quo in ME to protect his country and in the process save ME, but he was defeated and that is a tragedy both the populations here AND are paying a price for.

18 posted on 08/30/2010 3:38:33 PM PDT by parisa
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To: parisa

Yes, I do see your point as far as what GW had in mind when we went in but we failed. Other then for a few officers fresh out of OCS you will find little if any desire by the armed forces of the United States to ever try this again. We have shot our bolt on this subject and missed. I can’t think of a single member of the groud force I knew in Iraq who was any longer in favor intervention in the middle-east. If Europe or Russia or and I find this much more liklly China want to try their hand at the great game of the middle east, let them. Americans will not go in for armed intervention for a generation or more. Especially if its the middle east. We will find ourselves fighting it out in old mexico before the electorate goes for another mideast adventure.

And yes GW had his heart in the right place, so did I and an entire generation of Americans in the last decade. We got burned, and yes I do agree the apponents at home and abroad took shamless advantage of both GW and the rest of us to advance their own goals.

So for all those who still want to fix the middle east and find peace, love and understanding, as long as its on your buck and with your life I wish you luck.


19 posted on 08/30/2010 5:06:16 PM PDT by WyvernAK
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To: lady lawyer
Didn’t you meet any Iraqis who gave you hope?

I still do. Every day.

They DO want us to stay. They know Iran is just licking its chops, waiting for us to leave.

Oh, there are some troublemakers here and al Qaeda has been rasing its ugly head again lately, as have the Iran-backed Shia terrorists.

But overall, Iraq wants freedom. Take the sensationalist media with a grain of salt.

20 posted on 08/31/2010 12:25:29 AM PDT by Allegra (Pablo is very wily.)
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