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Did the Florida Preacher Support soldier funeral protestors or is it a setup/smear campaign?

Posted on 09/09/2010 6:37:36 AM PDT by fruser1

I've seen a few threads saying that the preacher who plans on burning the koran is associated w/the church that protests soldier funerals.

I had my doubts, so I did a quick google and found this article:

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/08/2209487/attention-might-fan-quran-flames.html

where it describes a member of the westboro church complaining about the florida one because westboro burned korans in DC and no one noticed.

The only other stuff I found was on blogs and wiki (which is basically a blog), including the florida church itself.

So it may actually be that someone or someones out there is trying to smear this guy and make it look like he supports the soldier funeral protesters.

What do you guys think? I don't put anything past libs, which have lying and propoganda down to a science like the efficient little fascists they are. What a better way to turn off conservatives than to associate someone w/the funeral protestors.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: burnbabyburn; terryjones; vanity
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1 posted on 09/09/2010 6:37:38 AM PDT by fruser1
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To: fruser1

My take on this—Fred Phelps is insanely jealous because when his little band of loons burned Crayons no one noticed.

Fred Phelps is a child beater/abuser whose own children hate him except for his kookie daughter. His justification for picketing funerals is illogical and insanity reigns.

The ONLY “connection” is that Fred claims he burned Crayons. Big Woop.


2 posted on 09/09/2010 6:44:17 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heros have always been cowboys)
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To: fruser1

Wayne Sapp, a pastor with the Dove World Outreach Center stood with members of his congregation alongside the Westboro Baptist Church members at Trinity United Methodist Church.

Sapp’s group and Westboro Baptist members sang songs such as “This Land is Going Straight to Hell” and “I’m Ashamed to Be an American,” to the tune of “This Land is Your Land” and “I’m Proud to Be an American” respectively.

http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_b35e2dce-4b5c-11df-957c-001cc4c03286.html


3 posted on 09/09/2010 6:47:13 AM PDT by jiggyboy (Ten per cent of poll respondents are either lying or insane)
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To: fruser1
This koran burning event would not be world news if it had not been made world news. The powers that be latched on to this story and turned it into the monster it is. Had the general and the policians ignored this, maybe a hundred people in Florida would know about it. Now the world knows, but to what end? Yes, I am cynical and suspicious. I think this is a set-up for something, a provocation that can be used for all sorts of things.

Have no idea about a Phelps connection.
4 posted on 09/09/2010 6:47:47 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We deserve the government we allow.)
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To: fruser1

Perhaps the Florida Minister is hoping that his rhetoric changes the “it is our Constitutional right” argument for the mosque? Both are legal, both are wrong. Maybe he is just saying these things to show how ridiculous the mosque argument really is. At least I hope so...


5 posted on 09/09/2010 6:51:24 AM PDT by marstegreg
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To: fruser1

All I can say to that is, terrorism really does work as a tool to bend a society, and Americans are very selective about which kind of free speech they are “willing to fight and die for” to protect, i.e., less likely to defend the kind that may actually result in taking a bullet.

Can’t say that burning a koran, in and of itself, is the way to resist and fight off Islam and its many disparate tentacles. For me the bigger issue is the one of free speech and the right of every US citizen. I may not choose to burn a koran, but I sure as hell will stand up for that pastor’s right to do so... let it be a lesson of tolerance both from the left and Islam, the religion of peace.


6 posted on 09/09/2010 6:52:16 AM PDT by dps.inspect (uttox)
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To: fruser1
I'm suspicious about this whole thing.

Could this be an attempted "Reichstag Moment" by a Leftist agitator?

7 posted on 09/09/2010 6:53:06 AM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all. -- Texas Eagle)
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To: AD from SpringBay

These events are made world news, because that is the way the world currently is.


8 posted on 09/09/2010 6:54:07 AM PDT by stuartcr (Nancy Pelosi-Super MILF.................................Moron I'd Like to Forget)
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To: Texas Eagle

maybe so


9 posted on 09/09/2010 6:55:31 AM PDT by yldstrk (My heros have always been cowboys)
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To: Texas Eagle
The media can say were all racist
10 posted on 09/09/2010 6:55:48 AM PDT by Hojczyk
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To: fruser1

Here is a Free Republic thread straight from Terry Jones’ website.

***************************

In Support of Westboro Baptist [Dr. Terry Jones “burn a Koran” supports Fred Phelps]
Dove World Outreach Center ^ | April 21, 2010

Posted on Tuesday, September 07, 2010 10:28:57 PM

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2584978/posts

***************************

He likes them. He marched with them in April of this year.

The guy is scum and our military ought to drop him off behind Taliban lines in Afghanistan with a burnt Koran tied around his neck.


11 posted on 09/09/2010 6:56:58 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: yldstrk

re: His justification for picketing funerals is illogical and insanity reigns.

Actually, there is a justification. It is money. Phelps makes his money by suing those who oppose his picketing of funerals.


12 posted on 09/09/2010 6:57:28 AM PDT by Nevadan
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To: fruser1

The Florida “pastor” os a wannabe cult leader who teaches that his students need to ditch their families to serve God.


13 posted on 09/09/2010 6:59:28 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: jiggyboy

Thanks for posting the link. That is pretty convincing evidence that Westboro and Dove are birds of a feather flocking together.

http://www.alligator.org/news/local/article_b35e2dce-4b5c-11df-957c-001cc4c03286.html


14 posted on 09/09/2010 7:03:03 AM PDT by Presbyterian Reporter
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To: stuartcr
This is more than a time & chance thing. It's not like a Youtube video that went viral. News of these 50 or so Floridians burning a koran was trumpeted by high-ranking geo-political figures, weeks before the event.

It would almost be better if they were just that stupid, but they aren't. Think about the knowledge and understanding of someone like Petraeus. He knows how information and psychology works - as do the other heads of state who went to Pakistan and said, "Hey, see this little speck on the map of Florida here? We'll, there's a group of people there who are going to burn a Koran, and we're against it. Now what are you going to do about it?"
15 posted on 09/09/2010 7:03:20 AM PDT by AD from SpringBay (We deserve the government we allow.)
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To: fruser1
Whether he supports the crazies in the Westboro Baptist Church or not, he is being just as callous to the welfare of U.S. troops.

Here is what Sarah Palin thinks of this guy:

Palin: Koran burning is 'unnecessary provocation'

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero," said the former Alaska governor.

Every day, our U.S. troops fight, side by side, with Muslims who do not want extremist religious nutjobs running their lives and cutting off the noses of their daughters in the name of Islam any more than we want the Spanish Inquisition running our lives in the name of Christianity.

Why insult our Muslim allies that are fighting and dying with us against the extremist religious nutjobs?

I have a Constitutional right to hold a rally, with the international news media invited, to proclaim that I know that all U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan think that all Iraqi and Afghan mothers are filthy prostitutes.

Yes, I have that Constitutional right but it is an action that deliberately puts our troops in danger.

The more this pastor digs in his heels, the more I believe that he, like that maggot, Philip Phelps, actually wants our troops to die.

16 posted on 09/09/2010 7:04:00 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: AD from SpringBay

Yes, it is more than a chance thing, it’s the way it is.


17 posted on 09/09/2010 7:07:51 AM PDT by stuartcr (Nancy Pelosi-Super MILF.................................Moron I'd Like to Forget)
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To: yldstrk; earlJam

Crayons? Crayons???

Now, astroturf! I’d burn that!


18 posted on 09/09/2010 7:09:28 AM PDT by Larry Lucido
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To: fruser1
There are probably some background motivations and back story here, and the Koran burning may be called irritating, but, in a society where citizens have free speech, anybody can do it, and it is no more than that.

This is the advantage in this action. No Matter who here burns Korans, the Muslims worldwide are limited to dour faced tut tut's, or the expose themselves for what they are, a barbaric cult religion with a large percentage of ultra violent fanatics, all stuck in the twelfth century.

That's why the lefties are so wound up, they know the Moo's can't control themselves, will get a lot of bad press for the violence, and Hussein and the Rat apologizers will look the worse for it with an election coming.

19 posted on 09/09/2010 7:12:16 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Sarah and the Conservatives will rock your world.)
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To: Polybius
I'm conflicted.

If this guy is involved with those lunatics who picket funerals of American soldiers, he is a problem.

At the same time, ANYBODY should have the right to burn Korans publicly - in Florida or anywhere else.

If people can burn the American Flag and the U.S. military can confiscate Bibles from American soldiers and burn them in Afghanistan, I sure as hell want to burn as many damn Korans as possible.

Islam OPERATES through intimidation, violence and terror. Days ago, Muslims and American Islamophiles were telling us that expressing First Amendment Rights by burning Korans would “threaten” Americans.

Last night that vicious bastard Imam said that not building their damn Mosque at the 9-11 sight would “threaten” Americans.

Years ago Muslims started “threatening” Europeans over cartoons, books, and other things and now they are virtual extra-legal lords of parts of France and Britain, operating under their own courts and dominating entire sections of major cities.

Is THAT was accommodating these fiends produces?

Being anti-Muslim isn't racist. Islam is a belief system, not a race - anybody can be a Muslim although MOST of them are concentrated in certain population groups.

BEing anti-Muslim isn't being anti-religious as Islam is a POLITICAL system as well as a religious and economic system and their politics, philosophies and economics are in direct opposition to everything the west stands for.

We made a serious mistake years ago when we allowed the politically crowd to bamboozle us into believing NAZIs. Communists, and Fascist had a “right” to spew their violent, anti-western rhetoric. Prior to that America had NO PROBLEM distinguishing between legitimate political opposition and people who were aiders and abettors of treasonous activities.

And now those prior missteps have come home to roost.

ERGO, BURN THE DAMN KORANS!!! BURN THEM NOW!!

And do everything possible to stop the mosque at the 9-11 site and block Islamization of America.

20 posted on 09/09/2010 7:17:38 AM PDT by ZULU (No nation which tried to tolerate Islam escaped Islamization)
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To: ZULU
At the same time, ANYBODY should have the right to burn Korans publicly - in Florida or anywhere else.

No one is stopping them.
21 posted on 09/09/2010 7:19:28 AM PDT by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Polybius
it is an action that deliberately puts our troops in danger.

There will be an increased risk, but comparatively speaking it will be negligible compared to the rules of engagement, "courageous restraint", interference for political gain, nation building, and the national will to win.

Had we properly executed our Middle East campaigns, there would be no one left alive who would bother our troops over Koran burning.

The least powerful and least important of all the players is the wacko pastor from Florida.

Our troops can stay alive if Hussein will let 'em.

22 posted on 09/09/2010 7:34:30 AM PDT by Navy Patriot (Sarah and the Conservatives will rock your world.)
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To: jiggyboy

Thanks for finding that! I’m always glad to keep my paranoia in check.

I take note, though, the subtle difference in how this is portrayed in blogs. The dove church guys weren’t actually protesting funerals, they were, however, supporting an anti-U.S. message they have in common w/westboro. Probably common ground on the homosexual bit.

Perhaps a trivial difference, but a diff nonetheless, and what I was looking for, so again, thanks!


23 posted on 09/09/2010 7:34:42 AM PDT by fruser1
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To: fruser1
He marched with them:

If you write an essay on your website that says "We Support" these people it is an endorsement.


24 posted on 09/09/2010 7:38:18 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: fruser1
amazing

.

25 posted on 09/09/2010 7:43:09 AM PDT by Elle Bee
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To: ZULU
At the same time, ANYBODY should have the right to burn Korans publicly - in Florida or anywhere else.

Nobody is questioning his "right" to burn the Koran.

If the U.S. Government wanted to deny him his "right", he could be in a prison cell in Guantanamo right now as a national security risk. During the Civil War, Abraham Lincoln had editors thrown in jail for actions that he considered a threat to the war effort.

"You will take possession by military force, of the printing establishments of the New York World and Journal of Commerce... and prohibit any further publication thereof... you are therefore commanded forthwith to arrest and imprison... the editors, proprietors and publishers of the aforesaid newspapers" ...... Order from Abraham Lincoln to General John Dix, May 18, 1864.

As Sarah Palin said:

"People have a constitutional right to burn a Koran if they want to, but doing so is insensitive and an unnecessary provocation -- much like building a mosque at Ground Zero," said the former Alaska governor.

Islam OPERATES through intimidation, violence and terror.

I discussed this on another thread, but it bears repeating.

You have just described an "Islamist".

What is the difference between and "Islamist" and a "Muslim"?

An "Islamist" is a Muslim religious nutjob that will cram Islam down the throat of anybody, even their fellow Muslims.

"Islamists" are "Holier Than Thou" types who will kill you if you do not tow the religious line.

For "Christian" analogies think "Spanish Inquisition", "Salem Witch Trials and Executions", people being burned at the stake in Calvinist Geneva.

Common sense dictates that most Muslims are NOT religious nutjob Islamists. Who, in their right mind, wants to live his or her life with the Religious Police threatening you with death if you are not just as Holy as they are?

Everyday, in Iraq and Afghanistan, "normal" Muslims fight along side U.S. troops against these religious fanatics you have described.

However, these allies of us are "Muslim".

This guy was a "Muslim".

Burning a Koran only helps the religious nutjobs because it insults ALL Muslims. And that includes our allies in the photos above.

Why do you think al Qaeda bombed mosques in Iraq, both Sunni mosques and Shiite mosques?

To "Divide & and Conquer".

Why is Osama bin Ladin probably cheering this pastor on right now?

Because this pastor is helping al Qaeda "Divide & and Conquer".

26 posted on 09/09/2010 7:50:16 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: earlJam
The guy is scum and our military ought to drop him off behind Taliban lines in Afghanistan with a burnt Koran tied around his neck.

Do you think the American soldiers in Afghanistan whose bibles that the Army confiscated and burned would do that to him? Do you think that any of our soldiers engaged in combat against the Muslims would do that?

Should we have turned over demonstrators that burned Hitler effigies during WWII over to the Army to murder, and would they have done it?

27 posted on 09/09/2010 7:51:00 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12
He has endorsed these people. He and 30 of his followers even marched with them last April. I am sure there are a lot of soldiers who would be up to the task (and a lot of family members of fallen soldiers also)


28 posted on 09/09/2010 7:54:12 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: earlJam

I don’t think the soldiers whose bibles were burnt would want to kill the man by turning him over to the enemy, nor would any other soldiers for burning Korans, but thanks for revealing what you think of our GIs and we veterans.


29 posted on 09/09/2010 8:06:32 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

The soldiers who have lost friends and brothers may think differently. Family members who are burying their brave sons and daughters who have died in the war may think differently.

If bastards like Terry Jones or Fred Phelps held up signs that said “Thank God Your Soldier Son Is Dead” at my son’s funeral, they would be in the hospital or morgue before the service was over.


30 posted on 09/09/2010 8:14:40 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: ansel12; earlJam
Should we have turned over demonstrators that burned Hitler effigies during WWII ...

Should we have burned Catholic rosaries and pictures of Catholic Saints and burned effigies of the Pope during World War II because both Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised as Catholics?

That is the correct analogy here.

This pastor is not burning an effigy of Osama bin Ladin. THAT would be analogous to burning an effigy of Hitler during World War II.

That pastor is directing his attack towards every single Muslim on the Planet Earth.

See Post 26.

You are using cluster bombs to attack ALL Muslims when the weapon of choice is a sniper rifle to take out the Islamist religous nutjobs.

Just because Adolph Hitler was born and raised as a Catholic does not mean that ALL Catholics in World War II were Nazis and insulting ALL Catholics, even our own allies, by burning Catholic symbols would have been extremely foolish.

Just because crazy Islamist religious nutjobs are Muslim does not mean that ALL 1 Billion Muslims in the World are crazy religious nutjobs and insulting ALL Muslims, even our own allies, by burning the Koran would is extremely foolish.

Unless, of course, this pastor shares the desire of Fred Phelps which is to have as many U.S. troops die as possible. In that case, he is not "foolish". He knows exactly what he is doing. In such a case, he is a traitor.

31 posted on 09/09/2010 8:15:19 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: AD from SpringBay

BINGO - we have a winnah!

This has been done before - why all the hoppla just now?

Methinks the backstory would be bigger ‘news’ than some kook (50 member congegation, feh) burning some books.


32 posted on 09/09/2010 8:18:31 AM PDT by ASOC (What will you do when Mexicio becomes OUR Chechnya?)
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To: Polybius

Sarah Palin is a nice lady and good conservative but doesn’t understand Islam.

“What is the difference between and “Islamist” and a “Muslim”?”

I don’t know. But I don’t agree with your definitions. Islamic tradition and scripture calls for the kind of action Islamists practise. Perhaps what you are saying is there are strict Muslims (Islamists) and nominal Muslims (Muslims).

“For “Christian” analogies think “Spanish Inquisition”, “Salem Witch Trials and Executions”, people being burned at the stake in Calvinist Geneva.”

Totally inaccurate analogy.

Christ never called for the use of force against non-Christians and the New Testament is not filled with one virtiolic, hateful, passage after another. Christ never was a desert bandit and never enslaved people and never was a pedophile. Mohammad did all of that and approved of it - particuarly when it was done to non-Muslims, and his writings and behavior reflect that. Ergo, Islamists are, in reality, true Muslims.

As for the Inquisition, I haven’t heard of Christianity popping out any inquisitorial courts lately, and, in fact, they only existed for a brief time and in a limited area of Christandom. Islam, throughout its history has popped out one violent, vicious movement after another which have murdered and brutalized non-Muslims and even other Islamic Sects. Its still going on. Its what Islam does.

“Common sense dictates that most Muslims are NOT religious nutjob Islamists. Who, in their right mind, wants to live his or her life with the Religious Police threatening you with death if you are not just as Holy as they are?”

Actions speak louder than words, and if the majority of Muslims believed as you state, people like Achmeddinijad wouldn’t be in power, and the kind of mass mob actions supportive of those religious police and their policies wouldn’t happen in Southeast Asia, Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, Sudan, Nigeria, etc. Most Muslims must approve of these actions as there has been no outspoken mass oppostion by them in those parts of the west where Muslims are still free to speak their minds about Sharia.

“Everyday, in Iraq and Afghanistan, “normal” Muslims fight along side U.S. troops against these religious fanatics you have described.”

And everyday during the war with Russia, Mujahadeen (spelling?) fought alongside and with western advisors. So what? They have their reasons and Muslims have a long history of using non-Muslims to kill Muslims of other sects.
It doesn’t mean they like us.

“This guy was a “Muslim”.”

He was a Muslim - SORT of. He was toying with Zoroastrianism, which was one of the reason the mass of fanatic Muslims in Iran rose up against him.

“Why do you think al Qaeda bombed mosques in Iraq, both Sunni mosques and Shiite mosques?”

One group of fanatics trying to control others. There is nothing new in this. Muslim sects have killed off each other in the millions. Read about the Wahhabist take-over of Saudi Arabia.

“Why is Osama bin Ladin probably cheering this pastor on right now?

Because this pastor is helping al Qaeda “Divide & and Conquer”.

I haven’t a clue what he is doing and neither does anyone else. Further, I don’t care.

I DO care about the horrific changes brought about in our society because we have allowed Muslims in here. If America had no Muslims, there would have been no 9-11.

If there were no 9-11, we wouldn’t have lost Americans and American dollars in Afghhanistan and Iraq, we wouldn’t have to be subjected to the inconveniences and indignities of modern travel restrictions, the constant threats of death and bombs, etc, and wouldn’t be building the kind of domestic defense infrastructure and legal apparatus to DEFEND us agains Muslsim, which will, in the long run, pose a serious threat to our Constitutional liberties and freedoms.

I don’t like Muslims and Islam. I don’t want them in my country and I don’t want them in the west. Not until the mass of them realizes that they are living in the 21st century, not the 6th century, and that theocracies, Sharia Law and all that other nonesense is the baggage from another age, not the way of the future. And so far, I don’t see ANY SIGN of that.


33 posted on 09/09/2010 8:21:35 AM PDT by ZULU (No nation which tried to tolerate Islam escaped Islamization)
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To: Polybius
this pastor shares the desire of Fred Phelps which is to have as many U.S. troops die as possible. In that case, he is not "foolish". He knows exactly what he is doing. In such a case, he is a traitor.

Bravo!

34 posted on 09/09/2010 8:23:28 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: Polybius
Should we have burned Catholic rosaries and pictures of Catholic Saints and burned effigies of the Pope during World War II because both Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised as Catholics? That is the correct analogy here.

What an idiot.

35 posted on 09/09/2010 8:26:18 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: earlJam

The church is burning Korans, not holding up those signs.

Your fear of Muslims is your own, don’t try to also put it on our combat soldiers that are engaged in war with them, and doing very well.


36 posted on 09/09/2010 8:30:59 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

He and 30 members of his cult protested with Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist church last April.

His church has a long essay on its webpage called: “In Support of the Westboro Baptist Church.”

I don’t know why you would defend him.


37 posted on 09/09/2010 8:35:12 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: Polybius

See:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html


38 posted on 09/09/2010 8:50:33 AM PDT by ZULU (No nation which tried to tolerate Islam escaped Islamization)
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To: Polybius

Good analogy.


39 posted on 09/09/2010 8:53:38 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: earlJam

I’m defending the demonstration of burning the Korans, and it has spilled over into defending the American GI.

You never answered if you think that the American soldiers whose bibles were confiscated and burned by the Army, would want to turn this Koran burning group (or pastor) over to their Muslim enemies to behead.


40 posted on 09/09/2010 9:09:38 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12
the American soldiers whose bibles were confiscated and burned by the Army

News reports say that a quantity Bibles were printed in the two most popular Afghani languages. They were sent from a soldier's church to the soldier. He claimed he didn't know he wasn't allowed to hand them out. The military confiscated then burned them, instead of sending them back as I would have liked.

Is that the instance you are talking about?

41 posted on 09/09/2010 9:22:03 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: earlJam

Yes, the time last year when bibles were confiscated from American soldiers and burned, not returned to America, not passed out to Pashtun studying GIs, or translators, or donated to someone, but burned.

Can you imagine a scenario where the American military would publicly burn Korans?


42 posted on 09/09/2010 9:27:57 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12
That actual news story sound a lot different than the one you described:

the American soldiers whose bibles were confiscated and burned by the Army

Regardless, I don't think the Army should have done that. They should have sent them back.

43 posted on 09/09/2010 9:32:17 AM PDT by earlJam
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To: earlJam
That actual news story sound a lot different than the one you described: "the American soldiers whose bibles were confiscated and burned by the Army"

No the news stories say that the bibles were confiscated and burned.

44 posted on 09/09/2010 9:46:08 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: ZULU
See:

http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html

"One of the most frequently used arguments in the defense of Islam is that the Bible is just as violent as the Koran. The logic goes like this. If the Koran is no more violent than the Bible, then why should we worry about Islam? "

Actually, we should most certainly worry about it. That is not, and has never been, my point.

I worry about BOTH the Koran AND the Old Testament when Holier Than Thou religious nutjobs with guns, swords and torches start shoving them down the throats of those in society they consider less "Holy".

If a Jewish veteran's group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?

FALSE LOGIC of the HYPOTHETICAL JEWISH VETERAN's GROUP:

1. Fred Phelps is an extremist religious nutjob that follows his interpretation of the New Testament.

2. So, all 2.2 Billion Christians that follow the New Testament must also be extremist religious nutjobs.

3. So, we will strike a blow at extremist religious nutjobs by burning copies of the New Testament.

Our enemies are the extremist religious nutjobs.

The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.

The Iraqi and Afghan Muslim soldiers who are dying in combat fighting extremist religious nutjobs are not our enemies.

Acting like an extremist religious nutjob, classifying all 2.2 Billion Christians as X and classifying all 1.5 Billion Muslims as Y only helps the extremist religious nutjobs, be they Fred Phelps or be they Osama bin Ladin.

What this debate needs is a little IFF.

IDENTIFICATION: FRIEND OR FOE


FRIENDS: Mulim Allies Fighting With Us AGAINST the Extremist Religious Nutjobs


FOE: Muslim Extremist Religious Nutjob

45 posted on 09/09/2010 10:18:12 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius

The religion of Islam is a religion of warfare against all non Muslims.

Not all Muslims are killing and murdering at any given moment because that kind of dedication and passion does not fit into to the normal human condition, but the ones that are not or are not supporting that activity, are not passionate Muslims.

When a young non committed Muslim suddenly becomes interested in his faith, and becomes devout, then it is time to keep an eye on him and keep him away from the killing tools, because that means he is actually reading the Koran, and taking it seriously, and that means a call to violence and oppression.


46 posted on 09/09/2010 11:14:20 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Polybius
FOE: Muslim Extremist Religious Nutjob

You are not telling the truth when you label Osama Bin Laden that way.

Osama Bin Laden is one of the most respected Muslim leaders in the world, not a lone wolf nutcase.

47 posted on 09/09/2010 11:18:45 AM PDT by ansel12
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To: Polybius

“I worry about BOTH the Koran AND the Old Testament when Holier Than Thou religious nutjobs with guns, swords and torches start shoving them down the throats of those in society they consider less “Holy”.”

If you are SERIOUSLY as concerned with contemporary Christian “nutjobs” as you are with Muslims, based on the totality of Islamic history AND the totality of Christian history - not to mention current events - you have a SERIOUS problem with perspective.

“If a Jewish veteran’s group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?”

No. Because that group has been CLEARLY repudiated by the MASS of Christians - those guys on Motorcycles shielding the families of dead veterans killed by MUSLIMS are probably mainly Christians. The SILENCE of the Muslim Umma on acts of violence is not only deafing, they actually approve it.

“The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.”

Not all of them are our friends either and the mass of the Iranians appear quite content with government by Ayatollah or Achmeddinjad would be history - just like the Shah.
My guess is this is just another Islamic family fight, and Islamic “moderate” is merely a matter of degree.

“The Iraqi and Afghan Muslim soldiers who are dying in combat fighting extremist religious nutjobs are not our enemies.”

Not right now. Just like the Mujahadeen (spelling ?) were not our enemies while we were useful to them fighting the Russians. Once the Russians were ousted, a lot of them became Taliban or Taliban supporters. And supporters of Sharia law.

“Acting like an extremist religious nutjob, classifying all 2.2 Billion Christians as X and classifying all 1.5 Billion Muslims as Y only helps the extremist religious nutjobs, be they Fred Phelps or be they Osama bin Ladin.”

I think you have pretty well demonstrated that you have a limited perception of Islamic philosophy history, and current activities. Fred Phelps and crew have not stoned any adulteresses, lased anyone for drinking wine, killed any apostates, or attempted to force anyone to become one of their group.

Islam is our enemy even if some individual Muslims are not.
Their prior history and current behavior towards non-Muslims in the west, as well as in countries unfortunate enough to be dominated by them, as well as the behavior of their founding prophet, and the clear intent of their sacred texts, have demonstrated this with a clarity difficult for an intelligent and non-biased mind to ignore.

“FRIENDS: Mulim Allies Fighting With Us AGAINST the Extremist Religious Nutjobs”

Should read: Muslims presently allied with us against the Taliban.

They are not our “friends”. Our Friends don’t require our troops to burn their bibles, threaten those of their number who wish to convert to another religon, or support Sharia Law.


48 posted on 09/09/2010 11:30:09 AM PDT by ZULU (No nation which tried to tolerate Islam escaped Islamization)
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To: ZULU
I worry about BOTH the Koran AND the Old Testament when Holier Than Thou religious nutjobs with guns, swords and torches start shoving them down the throats of those in society they consider less “Holy”.” ….. Polybius

If you are SERIOUSLY as concerned with contemporary Christian “nutjobs” as you are with Muslims, based on the totality of Islamic history AND the totality of Christian history - not to mention current events - you have a SERIOUS problem with perspective. …. ZULU

" The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed."

I said nothing about “contemporary”, did I? The phrase “guns, swords and torches” pretty much covers the entire historical period from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?

In regards to the “totality” of Christian history, a “nutjob” who died only 65 years ago was responsible for 40 million deaths in Europe. That that relatively “contemporary” nutjob regularly justified his actions as the will of the Christian God:

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

That relatively “contemporary” nutjob’s troops marched into battle with belt buckles that proclaimed, in German, “God Is With Us”. His troops knew that the phrase referred to the Christian God since the vast majority of his troops were either Protestants or Catholics.

“If a Jewish veteran’s group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?” .... Polybius

No. Because that group has been CLEARLY repudiated by the MASS of Christians - those guys on Motorcycles shielding the families of dead veterans killed by MUSLIMS are probably mainly Christians. The SILENCE of the Muslim Umma on acts of violence is not only deafing, they actually approve it. ..... ZULU

"Killed by Muslims"?

Not "killed by al Qaeda" or "killed by the Taliban" or "killed by the al-Sadr insurgents"?

Only the fact that they are Muslims (just like our Northern Alliance allies that bore the brunt of the fighting against the Taliban at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan) matters to you?

So, according to you, if nutjobs of a certain religion commit atrocities, then EVERYBODY of the same religion must be blamed? Even our allies?

Adolph Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised Catholics. The vast majority of German soldiers in World War II considered themselves either Protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. So, according to your logic, the Americans who died in the European Theater in World War II were not killed by the "Nazi army" ……. They were killed by “Christians”?

That, ZULU, is a "nutjob" position and "nutjob" logic.

“The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.” …. Polybius

Not all of them are our friends either and the mass of the Iranians appear quite content with government by Ayatollah or Achmeddinjad would be history - just like the Shah. …. ZULU

By your logic, the Hungarians in 1956 were quite content with Soviet oppression because their cotton shirts were no match for AK-47's. If the Shah of Iran had been allowed by Jimmy Carter to be as brutal as the religious nutjobs in control of the Iranian armed forces are prepared to be, the son of the Shah of Iran would be ruling Iran eight now.

No matter who are allies are, no matter who may fight and die with us, you will find a way to attack them.

You are dead set in joining Osama bin Ladin in going to the religious extreme and framing everything in religious terms so you can have your religious war between 1.1 Billion Muslims worldwide and 2.2 Billion Christians worldwide while U.S. troops pay the price in blood so that you can have your fun.

Well, ZULU, no matter what the Florida pastor does, you will have somebody on your side. You will get your Koran-burning that Osama bin Ladin so desires so U.S. troops are put at increased risk.

Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't

Sarah Palin agrees with my position and two religious nutjobs (one Muslim and one Baptist), who want to see as many U.S. troops die as possible, agree with your position.

Nuff said.

49 posted on 09/10/2010 6:25:56 AM PDT by Polybius
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To: Polybius
" The Straw .............. from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?" ????? I don't get it. And I don't think what you are saying is relevant. "In regards to the “totality” of Christian history, a “nutjob” who died only 65 years ago was responsible for 40 million deaths in Europe. That that relatively “contemporary” nutjob regularly justified his actions as the will of the Christian God: etc etc. What you imputing is irrational. Hitler never considered himself or his actions those of a supporter of a "Christian" God, despite his references to a Creator. Hitler was an insane man who wanted to establish a distorted personal perspective of a pre-Christian Teutonic religion. No Christian Church supported that lunatic. Further, even if he DID conceive of himself as a promoter of Christianity, his actions were limited to a couple of decades and involved about 8 million direct victims and had no basis in Christian scripture. ISLAM has been doing what Hitler tried to do, for over 1300 years to people of many different faiths including their own. And it has done it in a manner well grounded in the actions and teachings of its founder. I find your injecting Hitler into this discussion totally irrelevant and indicative of a deep personal discontinuity with perspective. ""Killed by Muslims"? Not "killed by al Qaeda" or "killed by the Taliban" or "killed by the al-Sadr insurgents"? Only the fact that they are Muslims (just like our Northern Alliance allies that bore the brunt of the fighting against the Taliban at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan) matters to you?" Uh, YES. They were killed by Muslims who are acting out a religious imperative against non-believers. "So, according to you, if nutjobs of a certain religion commit atrocities, then EVERYBODY of the same religion must be blamed? Even our allies?" I really don't know how to put this politely, but you simply refuse to get it. Islam directs its followers to regard non-believers as personal enemies and urges its followers to impose by whatever means necessary, an Islamic state on the entire world. The Taliban is acting out that directive. So did the people who flew the plane into the World Trade Center. Your attempts to obfuscate that point by bringing up aberrant individuals who were non-Muslims, acting out their own personal fantasies, ungrounded in any religious teachings are absurd. "Adolph Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised Catholics. The vast majority of German soldiers in World War II considered themselves either Protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. So, according to your logic, the Americans who died in the European Theater in World War II were not killed by the "Nazi army" ……. They were killed by “Christians”?" I think you have a serious disconnect with rational thought. Nothing Hitler or Mussolini(he didn't run extermination camps by the way) did was in any way connected with their earlier religious upbringing. The actions of Muslims ARE. WW2 was NOT about religion - it was about racism and imperialism and power. Islam is about that ALSO but its grounded in religious philosophy which makes it even more threatening. "You are dead set in joining Osama bin Ladin in going to the religious extreme and framing everything in religious terms so you can have your religious war between 1.1 Billion Muslims worldwide and 2.2 Billion Christians worldwide while U.S. troops pay the price in blood so that you can have your fun." Its not MY religious war, its THEIR religious war. THEY are the ones trying to extend THEIR religion all over the globe by whatever means possible, including violence and it is MUSLIMS who are persecuting non-Muslims in Islamic territory, raping non-Muslim women, mutilating their own people and others over perceived religious violations, burning houses of worship of other people and preventing THEM from worshiping as THEY choose, and invading the land of non-Muslims to spread their contagion. ISLAM declared war on the rest of the world back in the 600's and have been fighting that war ever since. The west has chosen to ignore it. Its not a conflict anyone else has requested, its one THEY have imposed. The west can either take the time and effort to read Islamic sacred texts and laws, read their history and analyze current events and behavior patterns in Islamic countries and those parts of the west infected with their presence, or wind up like the Iranians, the Egyptians, the North Africans, and MANY others - Muslims themselves or their slaves.
50 posted on 09/10/2010 6:57:11 AM PDT by ZULU (No nation which tried to tolerate Islam escaped Islamization)
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