Did the Florida Preacher Support soldier funeral protestors or is it a setup/smear campaign?

I've seen a few threads saying that the preacher who plans on burning the koran is associated w/the church that protests soldier funerals.

http://www.kansascity.com/2010/09/08/2209487/attention-might-fan-quran-flames.html

where it describes a member of the westboro church complaining about the florida one because westboro burned korans in DC and no one noticed.

The only other stuff I found was on blogs and wiki (which is basically a blog), including the florida church itself.

So it may actually be that someone or someones out there is trying to smear this guy and make it look like he supports the soldier funeral protesters.

What do you guys think? I don't put anything past libs, which have lying and propoganda down to a science like the efficient little fascists they are. What a better way to turn off conservatives than to associate someone w/the funeral protestors.

See:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2010/09/the_political_violence_of_the.html

"One of the most frequently used arguments in the defense of Islam is that the Bible is just as violent as the Koran. The logic goes like this. If the Koran is no more violent than the Bible, then why should we worry about Islam? "

Actually, we should most certainly worry about it. That is not, and has never been, my point.

I worry about BOTH the Koran AND the Old Testament when Holier Than Thou religious nutjobs with guns, swords and torches start shoving them down the throats of those in society they consider less "Holy".

If a Jewish veteran's group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?

FALSE LOGIC of the HYPOTHETICAL JEWISH VETERAN's GROUP:

1. Fred Phelps is an extremist religious nutjob that follows his interpretation of the New Testament.

2. So, all 2.2 Billion Christians that follow the New Testament must also be extremist religious nutjobs.

3. So, we will strike a blow at extremist religious nutjobs by burning copies of the New Testament.

Our enemies are the extremist religious nutjobs.

The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.

The Iraqi and Afghan Muslim soldiers who are dying in combat fighting extremist religious nutjobs are not our enemies.

Acting like an extremist religious nutjob, classifying all 2.2 Billion Christians as X and classifying all 1.5 Billion Muslims as Y only helps the extremist religious nutjobs, be they Fred Phelps or be they Osama bin Ladin.

What this debate needs is a little IFF.

IDENTIFICATION: FRIEND OR FOE

FRIENDS: Mulim Allies Fighting With Us AGAINST the Extremist Religious Nutjobs

FOE: Muslim Extremist Religious Nutjob

“I worry about BOTH the Koran AND the Old Testament when Holier Than Thou religious nutjobs with guns, swords and torches start shoving them down the throats of those in society they consider less “Holy”.”

If you are SERIOUSLY as concerned with contemporary Christian “nutjobs” as you are with Muslims, based on the totality of Islamic history AND the totality of Christian history - not to mention current events - you have a SERIOUS problem with perspective.

“If a Jewish veteran’s group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?”

No. Because that group has been CLEARLY repudiated by the MASS of Christians - those guys on Motorcycles shielding the families of dead veterans killed by MUSLIMS are probably mainly Christians. The SILENCE of the Muslim Umma on acts of violence is not only deafing, they actually approve it.

“The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.”

Not all of them are our friends either and the mass of the Iranians appear quite content with government by Ayatollah or Achmeddinjad would be history - just like the Shah.
My guess is this is just another Islamic family fight, and Islamic “moderate” is merely a matter of degree.

“The Iraqi and Afghan Muslim soldiers who are dying in combat fighting extremist religious nutjobs are not our enemies.”

Not right now. Just like the Mujahadeen (spelling ?) were not our enemies while we were useful to them fighting the Russians. Once the Russians were ousted, a lot of them became Taliban or Taliban supporters. And supporters of Sharia law.

“Acting like an extremist religious nutjob, classifying all 2.2 Billion Christians as X and classifying all 1.5 Billion Muslims as Y only helps the extremist religious nutjobs, be they Fred Phelps or be they Osama bin Ladin.”

I think you have pretty well demonstrated that you have a limited perception of Islamic philosophy history, and current activities. Fred Phelps and crew have not stoned any adulteresses, lased anyone for drinking wine, killed any apostates, or attempted to force anyone to become one of their group.

Islam is our enemy even if some individual Muslims are not.
Their prior history and current behavior towards non-Muslims in the west, as well as in countries unfortunate enough to be dominated by them, as well as the behavior of their founding prophet, and the clear intent of their sacred texts, have demonstrated this with a clarity difficult for an intelligent and non-biased mind to ignore.

“FRIENDS: Mulim Allies Fighting With Us AGAINST the Extremist Religious Nutjobs”

Should read: Muslims presently allied with us against the Taliban.

They are not our “friends”. Our Friends don’t require our troops to burn their bibles, threaten those of their number who wish to convert to another religon, or support Sharia Law.

" The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:

1. Person A has position X.
2. Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
3. Person B attacks position Y.
4. Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed."

I said nothing about “contemporary”, did I? The phrase “guns, swords and torches” pretty much covers the entire historical period from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?

In regards to the “totality” of Christian history, a “nutjob” who died only 65 years ago was responsible for 40 million deaths in Europe. That that relatively “contemporary” nutjob regularly justified his actions as the will of the Christian God:

"I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 2

"What we have to fight for is the necessary security for the existence and increase of our race and people, the subsistence of its children and the maintenance of our racial stock unmixed, the freedom and independence of the Fatherland; so that our people may be enabled to fulfill the mission assigned to it by the Creator." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 8

"In short, the results of miscegenation are always the following: (a) The level of the superior race becomes lowered; (b) physical and mental degeneration sets in, thus leading slowly but steadily towards a progressive drying up of the vital sap. The act which brings about such a development is a sin against the will of the Eternal Creator. And as a sin this act will be avenged." - Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 11

That relatively “contemporary” nutjob’s troops marched into battle with belt buckles that proclaimed, in German, “God Is With Us”. His troops knew that the phrase referred to the Christian God since the vast majority of his troops were either Protestants or Catholics.

“If a Jewish veteran’s group wants to lash out at Fred Phelps, the extremist religious nutjob of the Westboro Baptist Church, are they wise to start burning copies of the New testament?” .... Polybius

"Killed by Muslims"?

Not "killed by al Qaeda" or "killed by the Taliban" or "killed by the al-Sadr insurgents"?

Only the fact that they are Muslims (just like our Northern Alliance allies that bore the brunt of the fighting against the Taliban at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan) matters to you?

So, according to you, if nutjobs of a certain religion commit atrocities, then EVERYBODY of the same religion must be blamed? Even our allies?

Adolph Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised Catholics. The vast majority of German soldiers in World War II considered themselves either Protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. So, according to your logic, the Americans who died in the European Theater in World War II were not killed by the "Nazi army" ……. They were killed by “Christians”?

That, ZULU, is a "nutjob" position and "nutjob" logic.

“The Muslim young people who are dying in the streets of Iranian cities fighting the extremist religious nutjobs that now rule Iran are not our enemy.” …. Polybius

Not all of them are our friends either and the mass of the Iranians appear quite content with government by Ayatollah or Achmeddinjad would be history - just like the Shah. …. ZULU

By your logic, the Hungarians in 1956 were quite content with Soviet oppression because their cotton shirts were no match for AK-47's. If the Shah of Iran had been allowed by Jimmy Carter to be as brutal as the religious nutjobs in control of the Iranian armed forces are prepared to be, the son of the Shah of Iran would be ruling Iran eight now.

No matter who are allies are, no matter who may fight and die with us, you will find a way to attack them.

You are dead set in joining Osama bin Ladin in going to the religious extreme and framing everything in religious terms so you can have your religious war between 1.1 Billion Muslims worldwide and 2.2 Billion Christians worldwide while U.S. troops pay the price in blood so that you can have your fun.

Well, ZULU, no matter what the Florida pastor does, you will have somebody on your side. You will get your Koran-burning that Osama bin Ladin so desires so U.S. troops are put at increased risk.

Westboro Baptist Church to burn Qurans if Dove doesn't

Sarah Palin agrees with my position and two religious nutjobs (one Muslim and one Baptist), who want to see as many U.S. troops die as possible, agree with your position.

Nuff said.

" The Straw .............. from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?" ????? I don't get it. And I don't think what you are saying is relevant. "In regards to the “totality” of Christian history, a “nutjob” who died only 65 years ago was responsible for 40 million deaths in Europe. That that relatively “contemporary” nutjob regularly justified his actions as the will of the Christian God: etc etc. What you imputing is irrational. Hitler never considered himself or his actions those of a supporter of a "Christian" God, despite his references to a Creator. Hitler was an insane man who wanted to establish a distorted personal perspective of a pre-Christian Teutonic religion. No Christian Church supported that lunatic. Further, even if he DID conceive of himself as a promoter of Christianity, his actions were limited to a couple of decades and involved about 8 million direct victims and had no basis in Christian scripture. ISLAM has been doing what Hitler tried to do, for over 1300 years to people of many different faiths including their own. And it has done it in a manner well grounded in the actions and teachings of its founder. I find your injecting Hitler into this discussion totally irrelevant and indicative of a deep personal discontinuity with perspective. ""Killed by Muslims"? Not "killed by al Qaeda" or "killed by the Taliban" or "killed by the al-Sadr insurgents"? Only the fact that they are Muslims (just like our Northern Alliance allies that bore the brunt of the fighting against the Taliban at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan) matters to you?" Uh, YES. They were killed by Muslims who are acting out a religious imperative against non-believers. "So, according to you, if nutjobs of a certain religion commit atrocities, then EVERYBODY of the same religion must be blamed? Even our allies?" I really don't know how to put this politely, but you simply refuse to get it. Islam directs its followers to regard non-believers as personal enemies and urges its followers to impose by whatever means necessary, an Islamic state on the entire world. The Taliban is acting out that directive. So did the people who flew the plane into the World Trade Center. Your attempts to obfuscate that point by bringing up aberrant individuals who were non-Muslims, acting out their own personal fantasies, ungrounded in any religious teachings are absurd. "Adolph Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised Catholics. The vast majority of German soldiers in World War II considered themselves either Protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. So, according to your logic, the Americans who died in the European Theater in World War II were not killed by the "Nazi army" ……. They were killed by “Christians”?" I think you have a serious disconnect with rational thought. Nothing Hitler or Mussolini(he didn't run extermination camps by the way) did was in any way connected with their earlier religious upbringing. The actions of Muslims ARE. WW2 was NOT about religion - it was about racism and imperialism and power. Islam is about that ALSO but its grounded in religious philosophy which makes it even more threatening. "You are dead set in joining Osama bin Ladin in going to the religious extreme and framing everything in religious terms so you can have your religious war between 1.1 Billion Muslims worldwide and 2.2 Billion Christians worldwide while U.S. troops pay the price in blood so that you can have your fun." Its not MY religious war, its THEIR religious war. THEY are the ones trying to extend THEIR religion all over the globe by whatever means possible, including violence and it is MUSLIMS who are persecuting non-Muslims in Islamic territory, raping non-Muslim women, mutilating their own people and others over perceived religious violations, burning houses of worship of other people and preventing THEM from worshiping as THEY choose, and invading the land of non-Muslims to spread their contagion. ISLAM declared war on the rest of the world back in the 600's and have been fighting that war ever since. The west has chosen to ignore it. Its not a conflict anyone else has requested, its one THEY have imposed. The west can either take the time and effort to read Islamic sacred texts and laws, read their history and analyze current events and behavior patterns in Islamic countries and those parts of the west infected with their presence, or wind up like the Iranians, the Egyptians, the North Africans, and MANY others - Muslims themselves or their slaves.

Sorry.
“ The Straw .............. from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?”

????? I don’t get it. And I don’t think what you are saying is relevant.

“In regards to the “totality” of Christian history, a “nutjob” who died only 65 years ago was responsible for 40 million deaths in Europe. That that relatively “contemporary” nutjob regularly justified his actions as the will of the Christian God: etc etc.

What you imputing is irrational.

Hitler never considered himself or his actions those of a supporter of a “Christian” God, despite his references to a Creator. Hitler was an insane man who wanted to establish a distorted personal perspective of a pre-Christian Teutonic religion. No Christian Church supported that lunatic.

Further, even if he DID conceive of himself as a promoter of Christianity, his actions were limited to a couple of decades and involved about 8 million direct victims and had no basis in Christian scripture.

ISLAM has been doing what Hitler tried to do, for over 1300 years to people of many different faiths including their own. And it has done it in a manner well grounded in the actions and teachings of its founder.

I find your injecting Hitler into this discussion totally irrelevant and indicative of a deep personal discontinuity with perspective.

“”Killed by Muslims”? Not “killed by al Qaeda” or “killed by the Taliban” or “killed by the al-Sadr insurgents”? Only the fact that they are Muslims (just like our Northern Alliance allies that bore the brunt of the fighting against the Taliban at the beginning of the war in Afghanistan) matters to you?”

Uh, YES. They were killed by Muslims who are acting out a religious imperative against non-believers.

“So, according to you, if nutjobs of a certain religion commit atrocities, then EVERYBODY of the same religion must be blamed? Even our allies?”

I really don’t know how to put this politely, but you simply refuse to get it. Islam directs its followers to regard non-believers as personal enemies and urges its followers to impose by whatever means necessary, an Islamic state on the entire world. The Taliban is acting out that directive. So did the people who flew the plane into the World Trade Center. Your attempts to obfuscate that point by bringing up aberrant individuals who were non-Muslims, acting out their own personal fantasies, ungrounded in any religious teachings are absurd.

“Adolph Hitler and Mussolini were born and raised Catholics. The vast majority of German soldiers in World War II considered themselves either Protestant Christian or Catholic Christian. So, according to your logic, the Americans who died in the European Theater in World War II were not killed by the “Nazi army” ……. They were killed by “Christians”?”

I think you have a serious disconnect with rational thought. Nothing Hitler or Mussolini(he didn’t run extermination camps by the way) did was in any way connected with their earlier religious upbringing. The actions of Muslims ARE.

WW2 was NOT about religion - it was about racism and imperialism and power. Islam is about that ALSO but its grounded in religious philosophy which makes it even more threatening.

“You are dead set in joining Osama bin Ladin in going to the religious extreme and framing everything in religious terms so you can have your religious war between 1.1 Billion Muslims worldwide and 2.2 Billion Christians worldwide while U.S. troops pay the price in blood so that you can have your fun.”

Its not MY religious war, its THEIR religious war. THEY are the ones trying to extend THEIR religion all over the globe by whatever means possible, including violence and it is MUSLIMS who are persecuting non-Muslims in Islamic territory, raping non-Muslim women, mutilating their own people and others over perceived religious violations, burning houses of worship of other people and preventing THEM from worshiping as THEY choose, and invading the land of non-Muslims to spread their contagion.

ISLAM declared war on the rest of the world back in the 600’s and have been fighting that war ever since. The west has chosen to ignore it.

Its not a conflict anyone else has requested, its one THEY have imposed.

The west can either take the time and effort to read Islamic sacred texts and laws, read their history and analyze current events and behavior patterns in Islamic countries and those parts of the west infected with their presence, or wind up like the Iranians, the Egyptians, the North Africans, and MANY others - Muslims themselves or their slaves.

Sorry. “ The Straw .............. from the Emperor Constantine until the present, doesn’t it?” ????? I don’t get it.

You do not understandd the simple explanation of what a Strawman Argument is?

I put forth a statement describing religious nutjobs throughout History, specifically mentioning swords and torches . Position X.

You then you "presented position Y (which is a distorted version of X)" by claimimg "If you are SERIOUSLY as concerned with contemporary Christian “nutjobs” as you are with Muslims. ..... "

(Note how religious nut jobs throughout History in my position have now been replaced by you with attention whores posturing in front of a Channel 5 news camera and then compared to the entire Islamist extremist terrorist movement numbering in the tens of thousands.)

You then proceded to attack position Y which you created yourself.

After you beat the cr@p out of the Position Y strawman that you created yourself, you then pat yourself on the back for winning the argument.

That is called a Strawman Argument.

Obama resorts to them all the time.

Washington Post Criticizes Obama's "Straw Man" Tactics Obama Paints America's Choice as His Plan or Nothing

If you can not understand that, I may as well be debating a potted plant.

Goodbye.

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