Posted on 09/30/2010 7:54:18 PM PDT by Special Agent Anthony DiNozzo
Our former NR colleague, Joe Sobran, passed away today after a long battle with a variety of ailments. He was relatively young, just 64, and while physically beaten at the end, he also departed spiritually triumphant.
Surely, in short order, there will be ample reflection — much of it critical — on the hyper-talented, hyper-controversial writer. There will be a recounting of his history at NR, the break, the following years, and Joe’s soured relationship with WFB (happily, they rekindled their friendship before Bill passed away). Good, let’s discuss all that, and more. But later. Right now, let us, if only for a minute, pray for the repose of his soul, to hope: That he abides now with his old boss, and they together with our Creator. For the peace that proved so elusive in this lifetime, Joe, may you now have it.
I held Sobran in high regard.
May the Lord give him rest.
>>>>Besides being accused by William Buckley of being an anti-Semite and being fired from NR
That is a blatant lie. I have a copy of William F. Buckley’s 1991 book, “In Search of Anti-Semitism”, which he wrote describing his conflicts with Joe Sobran and Pat Buchanan. On page 11 of the book, Buckley defended Sobran against accusations that he was anti-semitic, by noting that:
“Those who know Joe Sobran know not only that he does not harbor ethnic prejudices, but that he regards such prejudice as sinful, despised by God, and therefore despised by man” (Buckley 1991, p. 11)
Buckley however accused Sobran of violating “the structure of prevailing taboos” when talking about Jews in America in the post World War Two era. What Buckley meant was that, while Sobran’s comments about Jews may have been acceptable by mainstream Americans in the pre-war years, in the post World War Two era, mainstream media writers were obligated to show extra sensitivity to Jews because of the European Holocaust.
Sobran can be accused of insensitivity to Jews and Israel, but he never crossed the line to overt anti-semitism in his comments, the way David Duke does. Buckley fired Sobran from National Review for insurbodination, after both men fiercely disagreed over the first Iraq War of 1991. Sobran wrote a long essay later in 1991, describing the dispute that led to his firing. Both men reconciled before Buckley’s death in 2008, and Sobran had a very nice column about his former boss at his passing.
I don't know if you are talking about this article, which was written when Buckley had become seriously ill. Regardless, it's a very eloquent, classy, and truly Christian piece of prose.
To be specific, Buckley accused Sobran of "contextual" anti- Semitism, and also accused him of libel and moral incapacitation, before firing him from NR.
It is indisputable that his last 10 years at least he ended up in some weird place where the US was responsible for the 9-11 attacks, George Bush was on the verge of nuking Syria, and the Jew-Zionist conspiracy ran US foreign policy, and so on. A bit deranged, was he.
Tell me, are the muslims anti-semitic semites?
YES. GO READ MY POSTING HISTORY.
Is Noam Chomsky an anti-semitic semite?
He's an antisemitic communist of Jewish descent.
What would you call the 85% block of American Jews who vote against Israel’s much stronger position offered by the Republicans in favor of Obama who represents a much more hostile position against Israel?
Idiots. People whose primary religion is liberalism and not Judaism. However, I never bought the 85% number as it oversamples urban areas. And even within urban areas, there are differences. Upper West Side Jews vote different than Borrough Park Jews in NYC.
Sobran's “For Fear of the Jews” was a speech given at a Holocaust Denial conference for IHR. There Sobran tries to redefine antisemitism out of existance and paint those who dislike Jews as victimes of Jewish power.
Sobran didn't like any Jews, except those that converted.
False prophet but not an anti-semite???? So, when Louis
Farrakhan calls Judiasm “ a dirty religion,” he’s not acting like an anti-semite, he is just saying the Jews follow a false God...lets give him a pass....
In John 8, there is a major dividing point in history on who is true and who is false. Jesus Christ called the system of the incumbent Jews, their system, their construct....of the devil...their response was to say he was demon possessed and they tried to stone him....other than that, there was agreement.
This is what E. Michael Jones points out. I have read him...he analyzes and draws a conclusion. He is the publisher of “Culture Wars” which is a great read. He is not a “hater” of the Jews ...he does call out a general pattern....a revolutionary pattern and guess what we see on a global basis...the majority of Jews are socialistic and marxist (very LEFT) minded in their political views. Revolutions tend to be driven by this kind of ideology.
American Jews most definitely are. Ronald Reagan was the greatest friend Israel ever had and I think he polled no more thatn 25% of the Jewish vote....unbelievable. It is an empirical fact...get over it. I don’t like it any more than you do.
I’m part Irish....one of my favorite jokes is “why did God invent liquor?” Answer: To keep the Irish from taking over the world....I accept that general stereotype...it is hard to argue with.
For every Don Feder and David Horowitz, there seems to be DOZENS of Paul Krugman’s. For every BiBi type politician, there are scores of Carl Levins, Chuck Schumers, who are completely antithetical in political philosophy...Look at the Jews on the Supreme Court - Breyer, Ginsberg, Kagan...do you want to claim them?
Why is that? Instead of hurling invectives at like-minded folks on this Forum, direct your energies to knocking the scales off the 85% of your heritage that are clueless or inconsistent in their political ideology to the detriment of Israel.
>>>>They want to end Judaism and wretched Jewishness by having Jews convert
America’s largest Protestant denomination, the Southern Baptists, have been working hard for the past 15 years to convert Jews to Christianity. Do you consider the Southern Baptists to be anti-semites? Most Christians do not think so. Abe Foxman does: http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ChJew_31/4798_31.htm
>>>>Sobran’s “For Fear of the Jews” was a speech given at a Holocaust Denial conference for IHR. There Sobran tries to redefine antisemitism out of existance and paint those who dislike Jews as victimes of Jewish power
By the way, Sobran had Jewish friends, who helped him in his time of need. The Sobran speech that you link to, contains this important quote:
(”If I were to hate Jews en masse, without distinction, I would be guilty of many things. Obviously I’d be guilty of injustice and uncharity to Jews as human beings. I would also be guilty of willful stupidity. More personally, I’d be guilty of ingratitude to my benefactors — which Dante, in his Inferno, ranks the worst of all sins — since many of my benefactors, in large ways and small, have been Jewish”
“Moreover, I would be becoming exactly the man my Zionist enemies would like me to be; a man like them, in whom ethnic hostilities take priority over all other values and considerations. I would justify them in treating me as an enemy. In fact I’d go so far as to say that I would be helping to justify the state of Israel. I consider that if I fight these people on their terms, they have already won”)
As a supporter of Israel, I did not agree with Sobran’s opinions. But there was a line he did not cross on the Jewish issue, that separated him from David Duke, Willis Carto, and William Pierce.
This is what E. Michael Jones points out. I have read him...he analyzes and draws a conclusion. He is the publisher of “Culture Wars” which is a great read. He is not a “hater” of the Jews ...he does call out a general pattern....a revolutionary pattern and guess what we see on a global basis...the majority of Jews are socialistic and marxist (very LEFT) minded in their political views. Revolutions tend to be driven by this kind of ideology.
Jews are a pernicious evil but I don't jhate them. Got it. (sarcasm)
BTW, has Jones ever addressed Marx's "On the Jewish Question", where the ex-Lutheran calls for the end of Judaism and Jewishness? I've never seen it in his archives. I wonder why.
American Jews most definitely are. Ronald Reagan was the greatest friend Israel ever had and I think he polled no more thatn 25% of the Jewish vote....unbelievable. It is an empirical fact...get over it. I don’t like it any more than you do.
Jones and Sobran hate conservative Jews, who tend to be Zionist. They have no lover for conservatives in Israel. But if you want to address the failings of American Jews, fine. It is their ersatz religion of liberalism which trumps any semblance of Judaism among most. (I'm being a hypocrite here, since today was a Jewish holiday, Simchat Torah, and tonight is the Sabbath.) Most Jews are not religiously observant, don't go to synagogue, and belong to Reform and "Conservative" Synagogues where liberalism trumps Judaism. But if you want to understand how Jews vote, teh issue is grievance politics a universal infection among Western minorities.
I’m part Irish....one of my favorite jokes is “why did God invent liquor?” Answer: To keep the Irish from taking over the world....I accept that general stereotype...it is hard to argue with.
Fine, try "Rum, Romanism, and Rebellion". Irish were doctrinate machine Democrats and then socialists from 1840's until the 1970s. Most white Catholics in the Northeast still are, despite teh hatred of Catholicism from the left. And it is no different in the UK.
For every Don Feder and David Horowitz, there seems to be DOZENS of Paul Krugman’s. For every BiBi type politician, there are scores of Carl Levins, Chuck Schumers, who are completely antithetical in political philosophy...Look at the Jews on the Supreme Court - Breyer, Ginsberg, Kagan...do you want to claim them?
How many are Jewish. Kagan is a lesbian who has not attended Synagogue regularly since she was 13. Breyer married a Christian and his kids are Christian.
Why is that? Instead of hurling invectives at like-minded folks on this Forum, direct your energies to knocking the scales off the 85% of your heritage that are clueless or inconsistent in their political ideology to the detriment of Israel.
You really don't know me or wwhat I do.
Your thoughts in this thread would be interesting.
By the way, Sobran had Jewish friends, who helped him in his time of need. The Sobran speech that you link to, contains this important quote:
Every antisemite finds a useful idiot or some schmuck who put personal loyalty above all. It proves nothing. Besides, Sobran hates Jews for Judaism, not breathing.
As a supporter of Israel, I did not agree with Sobran’s opinions. But there was a line he did not cross on the Jewish issue, that separated him from David Duke, Willis Carto, and William Pierce.
Only exterminationism counts as antisemitism?
What do you think?
Based on what you say about Jesus Christ here...”He is a false prophet..” then is it OK for me to level at you what you level at E. Michael Jones? Conclusion: you are a Christian hater....but I won’t.
The Jews are vast majority socialist/marxist/leftist..across the globe. You apparently are some kind syncretist ...a conservative guy who things Jesus Christ is a complete liar and deceiver..but you prefer conservative ideology for your own lifestyle. OK, so should I call you an Anti-Christian or a Christ Killer wanna-be? Would you have been screaming “his blood be upon us and our children” had you been in Jerusalem circa. 30 AD?
This is what you do when call others(of non-semitic origin) who disagree with full-blown Zionism “anti-semite.” Call Chuck Schumer an anti-semite for he is by his choices.
Ever heard of David Goldstein? He waa a Jewish guy at the turn of the last century, a zealous Zionist and socialist...then he converted to Catholicism and became a huge apologist. He used to vex his fellow Jews by simply asking them ...”does Jew refer to a race or a religion? “
It cannot be a race since if a “Jew” converts to Christianity, then magically the person is no longer a Jew...however, if you become an atheist or a Buddhist, you are still a Jew...imagine that.
E. Michael Jones points out that Judaism is a religion ...but of a particular kind...it is anti-Jesus Christ-ism. The Talmudic/Rabbinical model is not the same religion of Moses/Aaron with its sacrificial system.
I had Jewish neighbors..loved them...socialized all the time with them...then I asked about their children and the wife explained she no longer speaks to her son (going on 7 years)...His sin? He married a Christian girl and converted to Christianity...she treats him as dead.
I got to thinking..had her son married my daughter, it would be no different..she still wouldn’t be speaking to him...and probably wouldn’t speak to me either. So would she host me at her home in these social events? Her husband, my friend, told me he keeps in secret contact with his son.
Christians unequivocally believe that Jesus proved to be the Messiah by His teachings, works, life, death, resurrection, and the fulfillment of His prophecies. We believe that Jesus was greater than Moses, in that much taught by Moses was of a temporary nature, being binding only until their fulfillment by the coming prophet, Christ. As Goldstein puts it, “Moses spoke to God the Father in a cloud; Christ saw Him face to face.”...Careful now, I’m quoting a Jew here so this is philo-semetic :-)
You are saying that Christ is a complete sham and by implication you are a Christian hater, are you not?
It would be easy to assume that this would inoculate you from theological, moral and intellectual enormities.
But pride is insidious and it can take a solidly grounded Catholic and make him into a sedevacantist cultist, a vicious anti-Semite and a mentally unhinged Shakespeare conspiracy theorist. Exploring his thinking over the past two decades would be an exercise in teratology.
I hope he was given the grace of clarity in his last moments.
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