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Pence: Odds are on Supreme Court striking down healthcare reform
The Hill ^ | October 8, 2010 | Michael O'Brien

Posted on 10/08/2010 2:31:57 PM PDT by jazusamo

A top Republican said Friday that he expects the U.S. Supreme Court to strike down key parts of the new healthcare reform law as unconstitutional.

Rep. Mike Pence (R-Ind.), the third-ranking House Republican, who serves as conference chairman, said he saw enough votes on the high court to strike a blow to President Obama's signature domestic initiative.

"It's going to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court's going to decide whether or not the Constitution of the United States permits the government to order the American people to purchase goods or services, whether they want them or need them or not," Pence said Friday on WLS radio in Indiana.

The Indiana lawmaker, and potential 2012 presidential candidate, has been among the crowd of Republicans to question whether a central part of Democrats' healthcare reform bill is constitutional. The crux of their argument is that the individual mandate — the section of the law requiring individuals to have health insurance of some sort — violates the Constitution.

A federal judge in Michigan dismissed a major case on Thursday challenging the healthcare law's constitutionality on that grounding, though other lawsuits are still being litigated in other federal districts. If courts in different areas of the country end up issuing different rulings, it could heighten the chances that the Supreme Court would take the case.

If it gets to that point, Pence said, he could envision five of the court's member voting to rule the bill unconstitutional.

"I rather like our chances when this thing gets to the U.S. Supreme Court," he said. "I think there could be a narrow majority on the court that recognizes that you cannot compel the American people to purchase health insurance just as a function of being an American citizen."


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; US: Indiana
KEYWORDS: indiana; mikepence; obamacare; pence; scotus
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1 posted on 10/08/2010 2:31:59 PM PDT by jazusamo
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To: jazusamo

So there are Four Nazis on the Court?


2 posted on 10/08/2010 2:33:25 PM PDT by screaminsunshine (counter revolutionary)
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To: jazusamo

Key parts? Strike down all of it! What I worry about is the Republicans trying to “improve” it rather than repeal the whole monstrosity.


3 posted on 10/08/2010 2:34:31 PM PDT by neodad (USS Vincennes (CG 49) "Freedom's Fortress")
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To: screaminsunshine

That’s my take and two are new.


4 posted on 10/08/2010 2:35:34 PM PDT by jazusamo (His [Obama's] political base---the young, the left and the thoughtless: Thomas Sowell)
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To: jazusamo

Would that not cause the whole bill to be void? How can we pick and choose parts?


5 posted on 10/08/2010 2:35:41 PM PDT by I_be_tc
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To: jazusamo

If you pin your hopes on the court it means you are losing


6 posted on 10/08/2010 2:35:53 PM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com <--- My Fiction/ Science Fiction Board)
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To: jazusamo
Aren't you supposed to ask whether or not the bill you were voting on was Constitutional before kicking the can down the road for SCOTUS to take care of? Sheesh. Whatever you do, don't vote for this illiterate man.
7 posted on 10/08/2010 2:36:00 PM PDT by BocoLoco
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To: neodad

I think they’re to chickenshit to do anything BUT try to modify it and add improvements.


8 posted on 10/08/2010 2:36:43 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: neodad

I hear you but I doubt SCOTUS can strike down all of it, it’ll eventually have to be repealed.


9 posted on 10/08/2010 2:37:45 PM PDT by jazusamo (His [Obama's] political base---the young, the left and the thoughtless: Thomas Sowell)
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To: jazusamo
Please bump the Freepathon and donate or become a monthly donor!

10 posted on 10/08/2010 2:39:47 PM PDT by jazusamo (His [Obama's] political base---the young, the left and the thoughtless: Thomas Sowell)
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To: jazusamo

“Pence: Odds are on Supreme Court striking down healthcare reform “

Mr Pence, please don’t bet your farm (and you damned-well better *NOT* bet *my* farm) on the Supremes —

Defund (at the very least) and Repeal!!

Do your job, Mr. Pence!!


11 posted on 10/08/2010 2:40:40 PM PDT by Uncle Ike (Rope is cheap, and there are lots of trees...)
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To: I_be_tc
Severable vs nonseverable.

I know how it works with contracts, but not legislation...

12 posted on 10/08/2010 2:41:30 PM PDT by gov_bean_ counter (Sarah Palin - For such a time as this...)
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To: jazusamo

What a strange way to say that.. I do not like the “odds” wording. They do not have big brass ones. They have none. Do not pay for it.


13 posted on 10/08/2010 2:45:53 PM PDT by ColdOne (GOP. Gutless Old Politicians :^))......November and Beyond!)
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To: gov_bean_ counter

” Severable vs nonseverable.
I know how it works with contracts, but not legislation... “

I may be mis-remembering, but I vaguely recall some discussion about how, in the rush to get Obamacare passed, the ‘severability clause’ (boilerplate) was inadvertently omitted....


14 posted on 10/08/2010 2:46:26 PM PDT by Uncle Ike (Rope is cheap, and there are lots of trees...)
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To: jazusamo

They can’t strike down the whole thing, only parts of it. We really need to win this in Congress, not the courts.


15 posted on 10/08/2010 2:46:55 PM PDT by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: 3niner

Incorrect. There is no severability clause. If one part is struck down, the whole thing is in the trash can.


16 posted on 10/08/2010 2:48:18 PM PDT by darkangel82 (I don't have a superiority complex, I'm just better than you.)
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To: jazusamo

I like Pence, but this kind of thinking irritates me. It reminds me of congress passing McCain’s “campaign finance reform”, and Bush signing it, hoping that the Supreme Court would throw it out. No one had the guts to stand up and argue against it, so they hoped the Supremes would do their dirty work.

Which is why the Left see it as so necessary to fill the court with judges who don’t believe in the constitution. Because with this mentality both intellectually corrupt and cowardly at the same time, we wind up with judges who think they are kings because we have elevated them to kings.

I expect this next congress to throw out everything O has signed into law and I mean everything. If they don’t, we’ll have to have another round of Tea Party rebellions to turn another load of Repub incumbents out of office. Any Repub who doesn’t have the stomach for a fight needs to go home.


17 posted on 10/08/2010 2:49:32 PM PDT by marron
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To: marron
Any Repub who doesn’t have the stomach for a fight needs to go home.

Absolutely, and the I believe most of the newly elected Republicans will be fighters for us. Let's hope it'll rub of on some of the reelected ones that aren't fighters.

18 posted on 10/08/2010 2:55:30 PM PDT by jazusamo (His [Obama's] political base---the young, the left and the thoughtless: Thomas Sowell)
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To: jazusamo

Peer pressure can be a good thing.


19 posted on 10/08/2010 2:59:00 PM PDT by Niuhuru (The Internet is the digital AIDS; adapting and successfully destroying the MSM host.)
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To: jazusamo
Even if the Supreme Court doesn't kill it, the November Republicans can defund it or pick it's vile corpse apart piece by piece, throwing each dangerous, infected part out one at a time.
20 posted on 10/08/2010 3:04:14 PM PDT by PATRIOT1876 (Language, Borders, Culture, Full employment for those here legally)
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To: jazusamo

btt


21 posted on 10/08/2010 3:09:25 PM PDT by GailA (obamacare paid for by cuts & taxes on most vulnerable Veterans, retired Military, disabled & Seniors)
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To: BocoLoco; All
Aren't you supposed to ask whether or not the bill you were voting on was Constitutional before kicking the can down the road for SCOTUS to take care of? Sheesh. Whatever you do, don't vote for this illiterate man.

Pence and the other Republicans all opposed this horrible bill. Mitch McConnel specifically challenged its constitutionality before the DemonRats passed it. All your statement does now is encourage Freepers to stay home and not vote for Republicans. Could you be a troll, like some of those fake "Tea Party" candidates the DemonRats are running to divert Republican votes????

22 posted on 10/08/2010 3:12:10 PM PDT by libstripper
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To: jazusamo

It’s a bad idea to decide matters in the court.

They need to deal with this in the Congress on Day 1.


23 posted on 10/08/2010 3:13:27 PM PDT by lurk
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To: jazusamo

Just repeal the damn thing so we don’t have to find out.


24 posted on 10/08/2010 3:15:07 PM PDT by Interesting Times (For the truth about "swift boating" see ToSetTheRecordStraight.com)
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To: neodad
Once the mandatory part is removed, the entire system falls apart.
25 posted on 10/08/2010 3:16:06 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (When the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn (Pr.29:2))
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To: darkangel82

Wishful thinking. The Supreme Court decided long ago that no severability clause is needed. Just watch, the Court will probably decide that something in the bill is unconstitutional, but I guarantee you that they won’t strike down the whole thing.


26 posted on 10/08/2010 3:17:30 PM PDT by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: jazusamo
Mike Pence should stop waiting for SCOTUS to do the work he's supposed to be doing. Mike, there's something you might want to know. Congress provides the budget for every dollar of funding. You simply block any bill that funds this crap. Period. I don't care if it's the ‘Anyone who votes against this bill hates dogs Act’, you block it until the funding provisions are removed, and you go on.

You put riders on every bill that makes sure that none of the funds in the bill can be used for anything related to a national healthcare act.

In other words, Mike, you find a set of balls and you use them.

27 posted on 10/08/2010 3:25:58 PM PDT by kingu (Favorite Sticker: Lost hope, and Obama took my change.)
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To: jazusamo
The crux of their argument is that the individual mandate — the section of the law requiring individuals to have health insurance of some sort — violates the Constitution.

Does the section of the law requiring individuals to have Social Security numbers violate the Constitution?

28 posted on 10/08/2010 3:31:12 PM PDT by Mojave (Ignorant and stoned - Obama's natural constituency.)
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To: 3niner; darkangel82
The Supreme Court decided long ago that no severability clause is needed.

Got a refernce to back that up?

Apprently you went to bed too early a few weeks ago when Cuccinelli was on Greta discussing this very thing about the lack of severability language, and the fact that if any single aspect of the law is found unconstitutional by the USSC the whole thing goes down.

FReegards!


29 posted on 10/08/2010 3:32:16 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: jazusamo

Trust SCOTUS? Big mistake.


30 posted on 10/08/2010 3:45:09 PM PDT by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both.)
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To: I_be_tc
Would that not cause the whole bill to be void? How can we pick and choose parts?

In their haste to pass it, the Dems forgot to put in the usual severance clause that states that if any portion of the law is struck down, the rest will remain in force.

They use that on most bills but forgot it on this one...and they can't go back to fix it because they no longer have the votes. To top that off, a number of Dems are now saying they are against it.

31 posted on 10/08/2010 3:54:16 PM PDT by capt. norm (Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.)
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To: neodad

If parts of the bill are unconstitutional then the whole bill is automatically unconstitutional because the dems forgot to put a severance clause in it.

For an explanation of the severance clause see:

http://www.examiner.com/conservative-in-phoenix/arizona-opting-out-of-obamacare


32 posted on 10/08/2010 3:54:23 PM PDT by GilGil
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To: gov_bean_ counter
Severable vs nonseverable.

I know how it works with contracts, but not legislation...

It ceratainly DOES apply to legislation and the usual boiler plate clause to make it severable was not in the version that passed.

That has been discussed many times on this forum.

33 posted on 10/08/2010 3:57:21 PM PDT by capt. norm (Never underestimate the power of very stupid people in large groups.)
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To: 3niner

I’m not an attorney, but my understanding is that even if there were a severability clause (which I don’t think there is), the Supreme Court still has the discretion to strike the whole thing down. If the sections that are ruled unconstitutional are so important to the legislation as to make it unworkable without them, then I think they will strike whole thing. Since the individual mandate is a major funding vehicle of the legislation, ObamaCare would be unworkable without it.


34 posted on 10/08/2010 3:58:33 PM PDT by Jess79
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To: Agamemnon
Apprently you went to bed too early a few weeks ago when Cuccinelli was on Greta...

"Apprently" I did, and apparently you missed Mark Levin talking about precedents where the courts have found portions of laws unconstitutional without overturning the entire law. Let's just watch and see what happens. Don't put your faith in the courts, we need to win this in Congress.

35 posted on 10/08/2010 4:01:11 PM PDT by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: Jess79
...even if there were a severability clause (which I don’t think there is), the Supreme Court still has the discretion to strike the whole thing down.

Correct. The Supreme Court decides whether a law is severable or not, not Congress. They consider a severability clause to be a suggestion.

Since the individual mandate is a major funding vehicle of the legislation, ObamaCare would be unworkable without it.

Don't count on that. Since the law is thousands of pages of disconnected measures, the Supreme Court will almost certainly decide that they can chop it up.

36 posted on 10/08/2010 4:06:54 PM PDT by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: I_be_tc
How can we pick and choose parts?

"We" won't be allowed to, the Supreme Court will. Supreme Court appointments are very important.

37 posted on 10/08/2010 4:09:47 PM PDT by 3niner (When Obama succeeds, America fails.)
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To: jazusamo

DOn’t you DARE count on that happening Mr. Pence. Don’t even give it a chance to get to court. You had sure as hell better kill the POS before it ever gets there.


38 posted on 10/08/2010 4:31:49 PM PDT by pissant (THE Conservative party: www.falconparty.com)
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To: 3niner
"Apprently" I did, and apparently you missed Mark Levin talking about precedents where the courts have found portions of laws unconstitutional without overturning the entire law. Let's just watch and see what happens. Don't put your faith in the courts, we need to win this in Congress.

Since you fail to mention it in your post, you don't appear to have any appreciation for the meaning of term, severability, and why it is significant.

"McCain-Feingold," had the severability clauses, so while some of it was thrown out by USSC other portions survived. Obamacare failed to make any provision for severability. Therein lies its fatal weakness

There's no reason to have faith per se in the courts, but given that there are thousands of pages in that bill, and that it was so clumsily put together one is is certain to find plenty of examples of un-costitutionality.

If Virginia alone wins its case, the law fails entirely.

It's past your bedtime....


39 posted on 10/08/2010 4:33:43 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: jazusamo

Maybe a tie. Kagan advised Obie as Solicitor General. Her advocacy would taint her objectivity impelling her recusal.


40 posted on 10/08/2010 5:50:28 PM PDT by Sgt_Schultze (A half-truth is a complete lie)
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To: libstripper

“Pence and the other Republicans all opposed this horrible bill.”

Opposing a bill that’s not only un-Constitutional, but anti-Republic, is not nearly enough. Congress has the power to investigate any bill that’s passed before it ever gets to the Supreme Court, especially if all or a part of any bill passed is illegal. Did Pence ever call or demand a panel? An investigation? Anyone else? No. They didn’t even read the bill just like they haven’t read the past 200 bills. And that’s why the Republicrats don’t know if it’s Unconstitutional or not.

The Republicrats in Washington are one in the same. They helped pass bills that lined the pockets of many banks by stealing your money. They helped pass the lovely Patriot Act. They’ve done so much damage in the past 8 years it’s been astronomical. And you want me and others to continue to put money in their coffers? Dream on.

And that’s only the half of it. To trust any of them would be self-defeating. All the tea party appears to be is a group of angry Republicans who didn’t get their way in 2008. Where were you in 2000? 2004? Who started the Tea Parties? Last time I checked it was angry Glenn Beck and his merry band of sheikh-butt kissers at Fox. There may be a few people in the bunch who might be of a different “party affiliation”, but the reality is America is not the Super Bowl and all this sideline cheerleading Republicrat supporters continue to do is perpetuate the underlying problem.

And that problem is the system is completely corrupt, totally broken. The only way to fix it is to clean house and start over with a core of Constitutionally-based people. If that makes me a “troll”, so be it. Anyone not in one of the two camps is considered an outcast because we’re calling a spade a spade and the cheerleaders are getting angry because of it. I can live with that too, and have for a long time. I’m a Constitution Party member. I will only vote for Constitution Party candidates, and Dr. Alan Keyes as he’s one of the last true true political heroes we have. Keyes as walked the walk. He’s been arrested for anti-abortion. He’s filed suits against the usurper. He’s fought long and hard. Republicans going to jail for fighting for what’s right? Democrats? Yeah, right.

And I won’t vote for any Republicrat, regardless of how “nice” or how “sincere” they are because they continue to cling to a falling star. Short term gains or long term solutions? I have made a choice. How about you?


41 posted on 10/09/2010 5:27:23 AM PDT by BocoLoco
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To: BocoLoco
“Pence and the other Republicans all opposed this horrible bill.”

Opposing a bill that’s not only un-Constitutional, but anti-Republic, is not nearly enough. Congress has the power to investigate any bill that’s passed before it ever gets to the Supreme Court, especially if all or a part of any bill passed is illegal. Did Pence ever call or demand a panel? An investigation? Anyone else? No. They didn’t even read the bill just like they haven’t read the past 200 bills. And that’s why the Republicrats don’t know if it’s Unconstitutional or not.

The Republicrats in Washington are one in the same. They helped pass bills that lined the pockets of many banks by stealing your money. They helped pass the lovely Patriot Act. They’ve done so much damage in the past 8 years it’s been astronomical. And you want me and others to continue to put money in their coffers? Dream on.

And that’s only the half of it. To trust any of them would be self-defeating. All the tea party appears to be is a group of angry Republicans who didn’t get their way in 2008. Where were you in 2000? 2004? Who started the Tea Parties? Last time I checked it was angry Glenn Beck and his merry band of sheikh-butt kissers at Fox. There may be a few people in the bunch who might be of a different “party affiliation”, but the reality is America is not the Super Bowl and all this sideline cheerleading Republicrat supporters continue to do is perpetuate the underlying problem. And that problem is the system is completely corrupt, totally broken. The only way to fix it is to clean house and start over with a core of Constitutionally-based people. If that makes me a “troll”, so be it. Anyone not in one of the two camps is considered an outcast because we’re calling a spade a spade and the cheerleaders are getting angry because of it. I can live with that too, and have for a long time. I’m a Constitution Party member. I will only vote for Constitution Party candidates, and Dr. Alan Keyes as he’s one of the last true true political heroes we have. Keyes as walked the walk. He’s been arrested for anti-abortion. He’s filed suits against the usurper. He’s fought long and hard. Republicans going to jail for fighting for what’s right? Democrats? Yeah, right.

And I won’t vote for any Republicrat, regardless of how “nice” or how “sincere” they are because they continue to cling to a falling star. Short term gains or long term solutions? I have made a choice. How about you? You've done a geat job of proving you're nothing but a troll. Because the Republicans aren't as perfect as you like, you're urging us all not to vote and work in this election, thus assuring a complete win for Obama and communism.

42 posted on 10/09/2010 5:53:14 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: libstripper

“You’ve done a geat job of proving you’re nothing but a troll. Because the Republicans aren’t as perfect as you like, you’re urging us all not to vote and work in this election, thus assuring a complete win for Obama and communism. “

You lack faith in the Constitution. You also lack faith in the will of the American people. You fear, and therefore you blindly follow. That is why we continue to fail. People like you make a choice of the “lesser of two evils”. But the reality is the choice is still EVIL.

Cry foul all you want. The history is all there. Republicrats have failed to uphold the Constitution. They have FAILED THE PEOPLE. And you as well as others continue to let it happen by NOT voting for Constitutional candidates instead of party candidates out of fear of “Communism”, or “Socialism”.

That’s not the real threat here. The real threat is our liberties being tossed aside because of fear words like “terrorism”, “socialism”, and “recession”. These can never happen so long as candidates fight for the Constitution, NOT PARTY LINES! Parties are corruptable, as evidencd by Republicans AND Democrats who have urinated on the Constitution.

And you’ve proven very well you are a cheeleader instead of a Patriot.


43 posted on 10/09/2010 6:29:28 AM PDT by BocoLoco
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To: marron

“I expect this next congress to throw out everything O has signed into law and I mean everything. If they don’t, we’ll have to have another round of Tea Party rebellions to turn another load of Repub incumbents out of office. Any Repub who doesn’t have the stomach for a fight needs to go home.”

I agree with your entire Post....good job!

The last part above, (grizzly) bears repeating...............


44 posted on 10/09/2010 6:56:57 AM PDT by Forty-Niner ( Give Babs Boxer a pink slip just so we can call her ma'am again I believe she's earned it.")
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To: darkangel82
Incorrect. There is no severability clause. If one part is struck down, the whole thing is in the trash can.

Wrong.

See: Champlin Refining Co. v. Corporation Commission, 286 U.S. 210, 234, 52 S.Ct. 559, 565, 76 L.Ed. 1062 (1932).

45 posted on 10/10/2010 10:31:58 AM PDT by freedomwarrior998
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To: 3niner
Wishful thinking. The Supreme Court decided long ago that no severability clause is needed. Just watch, the Court will probably decide that something in the bill is unconstitutional, but I guarantee you that they won’t strike down the whole thing.

Correct.

46 posted on 10/10/2010 10:32:31 AM PDT by freedomwarrior998
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To: Agamemnon
I don't have a "refernce" but I have a citation.

"Unless it is evident that the legislature would not have enacted those provisions which are within its power, independently of that which is not, the invalid part may be dropped if what is left is fully operative as a law." Champlin Refining Co. v. Corporation Commission.

47 posted on 10/10/2010 10:33:48 AM PDT by freedomwarrior998
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To: jazusamo

What the hell is Pence smoking? With today’s Supremes you will continue to get progressive rulings.

Hey Pence...next time you are on Jeopardy, don’t take “The Constitution”, why not try “The Grand Illusion” for $100.


48 posted on 10/10/2010 10:37:11 AM PDT by gathersnomoss
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To: capt. norm
It ceratainly DOES apply to legislation and the usual boiler plate clause to make it severable was not in the version that passed.

Wrong. See: Champlin Refining Co. v. Corporation Commission of Oklahoma.

That has been discussed many times on this forum.

No offense, but don't believe everything you read on the internet. ESPECIALLY what is posted by random people on discussion forums.

49 posted on 10/10/2010 10:37:19 AM PDT by freedomwarrior998
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To: 3niner; All
“They can’t strike down the whole thing, only parts of it. We really need to win this in Congress, not the courts.”

We need to win this both places. It is absolutely imperative to get the Supreme Court to decide that there is a limit to how far the “commerce clause, and welfare clause” can be stretched. In other words, the 10th amendment is not just meaningless prose.

A bill to repeal will not survive a presidential veto, and likely would not have the 2/3 needed to pass it over the veto. Congress can defund as much as possible, but unless the court rules it unconstitutional, some parts will be implemented before Obama can be voted out.

50 posted on 10/10/2010 10:42:30 AM PDT by greeneyes (Moderation in defense of your country is NO virtue. Let Freedom Ring.)
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