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Gonzalo Lira On The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy
zerohedge ^ | 10/09/2010 | Gonzalo Lira

Posted on 10/09/2010 6:30:19 PM PDT by dennisw

The Coming Middle-Class Anarchy

True story: A retired couple I know, Brian and Ilsa, own a home in the Southwest. It’s a pretty house, right on the manicured golf course of their gated community (they’re crazy about golf).

The only problem is, they bought the house near the top of the market in 2005, and now find themselves underwater.
 
They’ve never missed a mortgage payment—Brian and Ilsa are the kind upright, not to say uptight 60-ish white semi-upper-middle-class couple who follow every rule, fill out every form, comply with every norm. In short, they are the backbone of America.
 
Even after the Global Financial Crisis had seriously hurt their retirement nest egg—and therefore their monthly income—and even fully aware that they would probably not live to see their house regain the value it has lost since they bought it, they kept up the mortgage payments. The idea of them strategically defaulting is as absurd as them sprouting wings.
 
When HAMP—the Home Affordable Modification Program—was unveiled, they applied, because they qualified: Every single one of the conditions applied to them, so there was no question that they would be approved—at least in theory.
 

Applying for HAMP was quite a struggle: Go here, go there, talk to this person, that person, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. “It’s like they didn’t want us to qualify,” Ilsa told me, as she recounted their mind-numbing travails.
 
It was a months-long struggle—but finally, they were approved for HAMP: Their mortgage period was extended, and the interest rate was lowered. Even though their home was still underwater, and even though they still owed the same principal to their bank, Brian and Ilsa were very happy: Their mortgage payments had gone down by 40%. This was equivalent to about 15% of their retirement income. So of course they were happy.
 
However, three months later, out of the blue, they got a letter from their bank, Wells Fargo: It said that, after further review, Brian and Ilsa had in fact not qualified for HAMP. Therefore, their mortgage would go back to the old rate. Not only that, they now owed the difference for the three months when they had paid the lowered mortgage—and to add insult to injury, they were assessed a “penalty for non-payment”.
 
Brian and Ilsa were furious—a fury which soon turned to dour depression: They tried contacting Wells Fargo, to straighten this out. Of course, they were given the run-around once again.
 
They kept insisting that they qualified—they qualified! But of course, that didn’t help at all—like a football, they were punted around the inner working of the Mortgage Mess, with no answers and no accountability.
 
Finally, exhausted, Brian and Ilsa sat down, looked at the last letter—which had no signature, and no contact name or number—and wondered what to do.
 
On television, the news was talking about “robo-signatures” and “foreclosure mills”, and rank illegalities—illegalities which it seemed everyone was getting away with. To top it off, foreclosures have been suspended by the largest of the banks for 90 days—which to Brian and Ilsa meant that people who weren’t paying their mortgages got to live rent free for another quarter, while they were being squeezed out of a stimulus program that had been designed—tailor made—precisely for them.
 
Brian and Ilsa are salt-of-the-earth people: They put four kids through college, they always paid their taxes. The last time Brian broke the law was in 1998: An illegal U-turn on a suburban street.
 
“We’ve done everything right, we’ve always paid on time, and this program is supposed to help us,” said Brian. “We follow the rules—but people who bought homes they couldn’t afford get to squat in those McMansions rent free. It would have been smarter if we’d been crooks.”
 
Now, up to this point, this is just another sob story of the Mortgage Mess—and as sob stories go, up to this point, it’s no big deal.
 
But here’s where the story gets ominous—here’s where the Jaws soundtrack kicks in:
 
Brian and Ilsa—the nice upper-middle-class retired couple, who always follow the rules, and never ever break the law—who don’t even cheat on their golf scores—even when they’re playing alone (“Because if you cheat at golf, you’re only cheating yourself”)—have decided to give their bank the middle finger.
 
They have essentially said, f***it.
 
They haven’t defaulted—not yet. They’re paying the lower mortgage rate. That they’re making payments is because of Brian: He is insisting that they pay something—Ilsa is of the opinion that they should forget about paying the mortgage at all.
 
“We follow the rules, and look where that’s gotten us?” she says, furious and depressed. “Nowhere. They run us around, like lab rats in a cage. This HAMP business was supposed to help us. I bet the bank went along with the program for three months, so that they could tell the government that they had complied—and when the government got off their backs, they turned around and raised the mortgage back up again!”
 
“And charged us a penalty,” Brian chimes in. The non-payment penalty was only $84—but it might as well been $84 million, for all the outrage they feel. “A penalty for non-payment!”
 
Nevertheless, Brian is insisting that they continue paying the mortgage—albeit the lower monthly payment—because he’s still under the atavistic sway of his law-abiding-ness.
 
But Ilsa is quietly, constantly insisting that they stop paying the mortgage altogether: “Everybody else is doing it—so why shouldn’t we?”
 
A terrible sentence, when a law-abiding citizen speaks it: Everybody else is doing it—so why don’t we?
 
I’m like Wayne Gretsky: I don’t concern myself with where the puck has been—I look for where the puck is going to be.
 
Right now, people are having a little hissy-fit over the robo-signing scandal, and the double-booking scandal (where the same mortgage was signed over to two different bonds), and the little fights between junior tranches and senior tranches and the servicer, in the MBS mess.
 
But none of that shit is important.
 
What’s really important is Brian and Ilsa: What’s really important is that law-abiding middle-class citizens are deciding that playing by the rules is nothing but a sucker’s game.
 
Just like the poker player who’s been fleeced by all the other players, and gets one mean attitude once he finally wakes up to the con? I’m betting that more and more of the solid American middle-class will begin saying what Brian and Ilsa said: f***it.
 
f*** the rules. f*** playing the game the banksters want you to play. f*** being the good citizen. f*** filling out every form, f*** paying every tax. f*** the government, f*** the banks who own them. f*** the free-loaders, living rent-free while we pay. f*** the legal process, a game which only works if you’ve got the money to pay for the parasite lawyers. f*** being a chump. f*** being a stooge. f*** trying to do the right thing—what good does that get you? What good is coming your way?
 
f***it.
 
When the backbone of a country starts thinking that laws and rules are not worth following, it’s just a hop, skip and a jump to anarchy.
 
TV has given us the illusion that anarchy is people rioting in the streets, smashing car windows and looting every store in sight. But there’s also the polite, quiet, far deadlier anarchy of the core citizenry—the upright citizenry—throwing in the towel and deciding it’s just not worth it anymore.
 
If a big enough proportion of the populace—not even a majority, just a largish chunk—decides that it’s just not worth following the rules anymore, then that society’s days are numbered: Not even a police-state with an armed Marine at every corner with Shoot-to-Kill orders can stop such middle-class anarchy.
 
Brian and Ilsa are such anarchists—grey-haired, well-dressed, golf-loving, well-to-do, exceedingly polite anarchists: But anarchists nevertheless. They are not important, or powerful, or influential: They are average—that’s why they’re so deadly: Their numbers are millions. And they are slowly, painfully coming to the conclusion that it’s just not worth it anymore.
 
Once enough of these J. Crew Anarchists decide they no longer give a f***, it’s over for America—because they are America.
 
 
Update I:
 
The Center for Public Integrity has a story, written by Michael Hudson this past August 6, that shines a light on the issue of perverse incentives of the HAMP program. These perverse incentives came to light because of a whistleblower, a former employee of Fannie Mae, filing a lawsuit. Fannie Mae was so keen on being perceived as a money-maker, after the Federal government bailout, that the aid programs passed by the Congress and signed by the President were turned into profit centers.
 
The former executive, Caroline Herron, recounts:

    “It appeared that Fannie Mae officers were focused on maximizing incentive payments available to Fannie Mae under various federal programs – even if this meant wasting taxpayer money and delaying the implementation of high-priority Treasury programs,” she claims in the lawsuit. 

    Herron alleges that Fannie Mae officials terminated her $200-an-hour consulting work in January because she raised questions about how it was administering the federal government’s push to help homeowners avoid foreclosure, known as the Home Affordable Modification Program, or HAMP.

Herron further alleged that “trial mods” were implemented regardless of eligibility of applicants, so that Fannie Mae would be eligible for Federal government bonuses.
 
Ms. Herron’s testimony in fact proves Ilsa’s suspicion that there was a scam at bottom. As Mr. Hudson writes, “Herron charges that Fannie Mae continued in headlong pursuit of ‘trial mods’ even though it knew that many had little chance of becoming permanent. [. . .] Fannie preferred doing trials, Herron alleges, because it was eligible to receive incentive payments from the Treasury Department.”
 
So in the pursuit of these perverse incentives, people who did not qualify for HAMP were enrolled in the program. And when their “trial mods” were up after 90 days, they would be notified that they didn’t qualify—regardless of whether they in fact did qualify, as in the case of Brian and Ilsa.
 
All so as to be perceived as a profitable operation, worth having been bailed out. All so as to be perceived as “returning America’s money”.
 
As of February, 2010, of the over one million homeowners’ mortgages under HAMP auspices, 83% were “trial mods”. One would assume that those 850,000 homeowners would also be assessed an $84 penalty for non-payment.
 
$84 times over 850,000? You do the math.



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cwiiping
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1 posted on 10/09/2010 6:30:20 PM PDT by dennisw
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To: dennisw

From the ZERO HEDGE website....thanks zero hedge!!


2 posted on 10/09/2010 6:31:15 PM PDT by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confuscius.)
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To: dennisw

It’s a very bad idea to strip motivated, capable people of their dignity and then rub their noses in it.


3 posted on 10/09/2010 6:34:29 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Chunga85

FYI


4 posted on 10/09/2010 6:35:26 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: dennisw

In my 20s, not married, and I rent.

Wow. Thanks everyone way to totally mess up the country before you hand it over to my generation.

Good thing I’m armed.


5 posted on 10/09/2010 6:36:55 PM PDT by Eyes Unclouded ("The word bipartisan means some larger-than-usual deception is being carried out." -George Carlin)
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To: dennisw

Middle class revolt bump.


6 posted on 10/09/2010 6:37:39 PM PDT by creeping death
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To: Lurker

That is one big way liberals justify their existence.


7 posted on 10/09/2010 6:37:45 PM PDT by wally_bert (It's sheer elegance in its simplicity! - The Middleman)
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To: Lurker

Where’ve I seen that line before? Unintended Consequences?


8 posted on 10/09/2010 6:41:55 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: dennisw

I’m going to go drink heavily now, and see if I can say anything civil about this one...

Is there anyone else reporting on this that backs these allegations up? If it can be proven that Fannie Mae Execs were bonused on HAMP trials...


9 posted on 10/09/2010 6:43:56 PM PDT by Bean Counter (Now what kind of a geroo are you anyway?)
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To: dennisw; Chunga85; P-Marlowe; Roccus; Neidermeyer; BelegStrongbow; Fred; null and void

ping


10 posted on 10/09/2010 6:45:32 PM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 627 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: dennisw
My wife and I drove out on the island this morning to do our quarterly check on rental properties we have. We were listening to Kudlow on WABC (our usual Saturday morning fare). We had an absurd (because we had it) conversation about defaulting on the one mortgage we have left. Neither of us has missed a payment on anything (our scores are well over 800) and we like to pay our own way.

But, this thought came up...if the feds bail-out the banks because the title and mortgage holder issues create a scenario where folks who do not have to do so default then where will the feds get the money? From us of course, so if we are paying for all those defaults then why should we continue to pay ours as well?

11 posted on 10/09/2010 6:52:18 PM PDT by wtc911 ("How you gonna get down that hill?")
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To: dennisw

And this is all about the breakdown of the Honor System; you pay your bills, you pay your taxes, you don’t cheat at little things or big things. Now, we all run the risk of acting like Clintons or Kennedys.


12 posted on 10/09/2010 7:00:32 PM PDT by Bernard (One if by Land, Two if by Sea, Three if by Government)
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To: dennisw

Zer0 set the tone by stiffing the Auto bondholders. I now set the rules with which I deal with Zer0 bailout banks like BoA. If they don’t like it, go cry to Zer0.


13 posted on 10/09/2010 7:02:00 PM PDT by Paladin2
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To: Eyes Unclouded

In my 20s, not married, and I rent.

Wow. Thanks everyone way to totally mess up the country before you hand it over to my generation.

Good thing I’m armed


Did Mommy and Daddy pay their mortgage? Because they sure didn’t teach you manners.


14 posted on 10/09/2010 7:04:36 PM PDT by Freddd (CNN is down to Three Hundred Thousand viewers. But they worked for it.)
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To: dennisw

Looks like middle America is thinking going Galt is a better and better idea...


15 posted on 10/09/2010 7:06:33 PM PDT by Spktyr (Overwhelmingly superior firepower and the willingness to use it is the only proven peace solution.)
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To: Eyes Unclouded
So your in your 20’s and you rent.
I don't know where you live, but when I was 25 I bought my first house in Portland Oregon for 35k. Portland was on the skids, hard hit be a recession and new government regulation. My payments at 7 percent were $320 a month, and property was at its lowest value in years.
6 years later I sold it for $100,000.
There are some real good Real estate deals out there now, and interest is insanely low.
Consider NOT being a renter.
16 posted on 10/09/2010 7:08:43 PM PDT by Colvin (Proud Owner '66 Binder PU, '66 Binder Travelall,)
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To: dennisw

I’m with Ilsa

If they want to know if the bank is paying attention- just stop making payments. Or make their payments into an escrow account.


17 posted on 10/09/2010 7:10:32 PM PDT by silverleaf (The lesser of two evils is still evil.)
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To: dennisw

X


18 posted on 10/09/2010 7:16:52 PM PDT by arkady_renko
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To: Lurker

“It’s a very bad idea to strip motivated, capable people of their dignity and then rub their noses in it.”

Yes. It is.

There are enough monkey wrenches in the gears of the US economic machine that I am wondering if we will just seize up. Frankly, I think that’s the plan.


19 posted on 10/09/2010 7:29:47 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: dennisw
Yesterday, I watched a YouTube video "The angry rightwing housewife". She went to the SEIU offices in Phoenix with a bullhorn and demanded they stop their boycott of Arizona. A SEIU thug comes out and demands that they stand back off the sidewalk. His immortal line "Hey, let's respect the law."

What a joke! That's been the danger all along, with the government treating the Constitution and the Law like toilet paper. Having judges overturn Prop. 8 and other sane laws.

When the government doesn't obey the law, why should anyone else? Here's another aspect of that, the Obama Administration is working feverishly towards 'racial justice'. What they are doing is convincing white Americans that the Civil Rights movement was a hustle. It was a way to discriminate against whites.

This is the job of the GOP to turn this all around and actually communicate. We're doomed.

20 posted on 10/09/2010 7:32:08 PM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (Are they insane, stupid or just evil?)
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To: Lurker
Is it possible we're just overreacting here?

I mean geez, it's not like we'll be the first country to collapse as a result of terminal political and financial sclerosis.

It seems to me the "deadbeat" label, at least in the court of public opinion, seems now affixed to Wall Street and our governments regulatory agencies.

I look everywhere for a glimmer of hope and that is all I see.

Ohio Secretary of State Jennifer Brunner on the Foreclosure Crisis Ally Financial Lawsuit

21 posted on 10/09/2010 7:35:55 PM PDT by Chunga85 ("Foreclosure Fraud", TARP, "Mortgage Crisis", Bailout)
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To: dennisw

They’re Going Galt and don’t even know it. There’s thousands of ways to Go Galt. I urge everyone to Go Galt in every way that is feasible for them to do.


22 posted on 10/09/2010 7:43:33 PM PDT by catnipman (Cat Nipman: Made from The Right Stuff!)
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To: dennisw

I, and many of my friends, are in exactly the same position.

Never late in 13 years on a mortgage payment, payed every tax, filled out every form, did everything exactly the way I was supposed to do it.

And now, it is obvious ... I was a sucker.

This government rewards the slackers, the corrupt, the criminals, the ones who skip out, don’t pay, who have an “inside” track, who don’t play by the rules.

And they use my money to fund it. And my money to fly that goddamn witch Pelosi in a 757 back and forth to California. No way I pay for this anymore.

F&^% it. My place is on the market, and even in this economy I have decent equity and have had several interested prospects in less than 2 weeks. Bought a couple of acres of land in the woods. I am scaling WAY back. I have no one to impress anymore.

This government has gotten all it is gonna get from me.


23 posted on 10/09/2010 7:46:38 PM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: dennisw

If we all stop paying our mortgages, the federal government would fall in a month. Hmm....


24 posted on 10/09/2010 8:00:54 PM PDT by gotribe (Time to partea)
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To: Eyes Unclouded; creeping death; Bean Counter; null and void; wtc911; Bernard; Paladin2; Freddd; ...

Galt’s Gulch?
http://www.LivingInThePhilippines.com

What Good Can a Handgun Do Against An Army?
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-backroom/2312894/posts


25 posted on 10/09/2010 8:06:25 PM PDT by 2ndDivisionVet (Palin/Bolton 2012)
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To: dennisw

I don’t care how nice these people are, I don’t want to pay for their HAMP-whatever so they can live in a nice home on a golf course.

I’m sorry they got the run around, but as far as I’m concerned they were taking money from other taxpayers in order to keep their home and pay less per month.

Just because HAMP is another fed/gov scam (and if you did any research at all on it from the get go you would have known that) doesn’t excuse those who would use it.


26 posted on 10/09/2010 8:08:47 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: Paladin2
"Zer0 set the tone by stiffing the Auto bondholders."

Who cares about John Galt - Daryll Issa, what are you going to do when you get your new position? Calling Daryll Issa!

27 posted on 10/09/2010 8:09:01 PM PDT by I am Richard Brandon
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To: Eyes Unclouded

If I were you I would stow that generational blame game. It’s way more complicated than that. Besides who ever told you you were going to take the reins minus any problems? Besides you are in your 20’s and renting. What skin do you have in the game again?


28 posted on 10/09/2010 8:12:03 PM PDT by steel_resolve
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To: dennisw
Count me in as one of the many who are seriously considering saying F*** it as well.

Played by the rules my entire life, My house is at water level and I see no prospect of getting any equity back for 10 years.

The only thing stopping me is I'm three months away from being totally debt free but for the mortgage. After that, I may sell and break even and buy property out in the middle of nowhere and hunker down for the coming market and monetary crash

29 posted on 10/09/2010 8:16:19 PM PDT by Popman (Obama. First Marxist to turn a five year Marxist plan into a 4 year administration.)
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To: Popman

This disgusting treasonous govt is intentionally crashing the system.


30 posted on 10/09/2010 8:18:02 PM PDT by GlockThe Vote
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To: dennisw

Mortgage Bankers Association Strategic Default

The Mortgage Bankers Association strategically defaults on its loan after shaming homeowners who do the same.

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-october-7-2010/mortgage-bankers-association-strategic-default


31 posted on 10/09/2010 8:18:33 PM PDT by Lorianne (During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. ___ George Orwell)
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To: DuncanWaring
I'll play. Sounds more like Falling Down.
32 posted on 10/09/2010 8:23:38 PM PDT by kitchen (One battle rifle for each person, and a spare for each pair.)
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To: GlockThe Vote
This disgusting treasonous govt is intentionally crashing the system.

I don't think it's intentional at all, simply incompetence

As a matter of fact, right now the fed government and all it's arms and tentacles of power are leveraging the monetary and financial market from crashing before Nov 2nd

They know it's coming and feverishly trying to be a soft landing rather than a train off the bridge crash

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2604455/posts

33 posted on 10/09/2010 8:27:33 PM PDT by Popman (Obama. First Marxist to turn a five year Marxist plan into a 4 year administration.)
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To: Lorianne

good one.....just watched it


34 posted on 10/09/2010 8:32:23 PM PDT by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confuscius.)
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To: dennisw
When the backbone of a country starts thinking that laws and rules are not worth following, it’s just a hop, skip and a jump to anarchy.

Just this past week the checker at a local grocery store told us she moved to our location recently after letting their Phoenix area house go back to the bank that they'd paid $300,000 for and which was now worth $60,000. It's becoming the norm, not the exception. She told us there were only five occupied houses left on the gated community street where they lived. They rest of the houses were abandoned.

35 posted on 10/09/2010 9:00:19 PM PDT by MamaDearest
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To: gotribe

Claim maximum deductions on your W4 too. Starve them out.


36 posted on 10/09/2010 9:01:12 PM PDT by esquirette ("Our hearts are restless until they find rest in Thee." ~ Augustine)
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To: Popman

What if all of these banking problems lead to a resolution by the government taking over all of the loans.....Now you make the banks whole, and at the same time you get everyone who ever wants to buy a home go to the Federal Government...sort of like they did with the Student Loan Program. Think of the control they could exert. Nah,...obama does not want to control people.


37 posted on 10/09/2010 9:28:49 PM PDT by Texas Songwriter ( ma)
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To: spodefly

Get yourself a copy of “Starving the Monkeys” and read it, cover to cover. Seriously. You’ll feel better, and have a plan of action.


38 posted on 10/09/2010 9:30:09 PM PDT by pingman (Price is what you pay, value is what you get.)
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To: dennisw; Eaker; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; ApesForEvolution; aragorn; archy; ...

CWII Ping.


39 posted on 10/09/2010 10:03:41 PM PDT by Jack Black ( Whatever is left of American patriotism is now identical with counter-revolution.)
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To: dennisw; Eaker; afnamvet; AK2KX; Ancesthntr; An Old Man; ApesForEvolution; aragorn; archy; ...

CWII Ping.


40 posted on 10/09/2010 10:04:18 PM PDT by Jack Black ( Whatever is left of American patriotism is now identical with counter-revolution.)
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To: Eyes Unclouded
Wow. Thanks everyone way to totally mess up the country before you hand it over to my generation.

If we do a breakdown of Democrat voters by age, how do you think your generation will do? I've got bad news for you, buddy - your generation is mostly liberals, and they voted for Obama and all of his socialism.
41 posted on 10/09/2010 10:07:21 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: Freddd

shuddup


42 posted on 10/09/2010 10:19:04 PM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Spktyr

“Looks like middle America is thinking going Galt is a better and better idea...”

For different reasons, but in the same manner, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. When the USSR imploded economically, the people decided it was over - and it was.


43 posted on 10/09/2010 11:22:35 PM PDT by Psalm 144
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To: pingman
Get yourself a copy of “Starving the Monkeys” and read it, cover to cover. Seriously. You’ll feel better, and have a plan of action.<.I>

Read it. Starts slowly, but it was worth sticking the first few chapters out.

44 posted on 10/10/2010 12:22:20 AM PDT by spodefly (This is my tag line. There are many like it, but this one is mine.)
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To: Lurker

I know of at least two people locally had this same exact scenario take place and there has been multiple stories on the Phoenix news — same thing. Something clearly stinks. When I heard it the first time I thought the person was fudging something in their story.... now...... I need a clothespin.


45 posted on 10/10/2010 12:34:54 AM PDT by Arizona Carolyn
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To: Lorianne

>>I don’t care how nice these people are, I don’t want to pay for their HAMP-whatever so they can live in a nice home on a golf course.<<

False; just like tax cuts “cost” the government. They borrowed money from a bank that the bank was willing to gamble on. They repay the bank plus interest. Whether they do it for 30 years $7% of 40 years @ 3% makes no difference.

The only person on the hook is the person borrowing and the bank. Sure, one may make the argument that the bank is lending deposits from other people, but we as a nation save very little.


46 posted on 10/10/2010 2:58:10 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: kitchen

Nope - it is Unintended Consequences - I dug out my copy and looked it up.

RE: Your tagline ... “and 500 rounds for each rifle”.


47 posted on 10/10/2010 4:59:54 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Lorianne
"Just because HAMP is another fed/gov scam (and if you did any research at all on it from the get go you would have known that) doesn’t excuse those who would use it."

Totally agree with you, every program the government comes up with is 90% scam to get someone elected. Why people can't figure this out is mind-boggling.

48 posted on 10/10/2010 5:22:00 AM PDT by Earthdweller (Harvard won the election again...so what's the problem.......? Embrace a ruler today.)
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To: DuncanWaring

RE: Your tagline ... “and 500 rounds for each rifle”.

Make that 10,000 rounds per rifle.


49 posted on 10/10/2010 6:07:22 AM PDT by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: Psalm 144

You’re one of the few who recognize this.
I remember that day, watching the live reports come in.
Struck me that the real reason was government could not issue paychecks for lack of funds. No pay, no workers, no bureaucrats, no government.


50 posted on 10/10/2010 6:12:18 AM PDT by ctdonath2 (+)
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