Posted on 10/15/2010 11:28:20 AM PDT by Kaslin
They would not just “disagree” as to the “why”,
they wouldn’t be able to logically explain the “why”.
And the point is, without the “why” answered,
any assertion is ARBITRARY, and therefore a meaningless assertion.
Doesn't everyone's?
So, doesn’t that tell you you’re doing something you “shouldn’t”?
(This word has GREAT meaning in this discussion).
Newborn infants suckle without knowing why. It’s instinctual. Or written on their being by God. Either way, the why is irrelevant.
We’re not talking about an instinctual reflex,
we’re talking about an abstract concept of good and evil, right and wrong.
The “why” of that is completely relevant,
because otherwise, any assertion of a standard is arbitrary, meaningless, and futile.
Ok, so if the why is relevant, is it still futile if the unbeliever accepts as his why the logical game theory argument? something along the lines of “adhering to the golden rule benefits everyone if everyone in society does it. I’ll start with me and lead by example.” Are there other “whys” that aren’t futile, even if they are in your opinion incorrect?
Someone using that example as a why still has to explain why its universal and any “better” than a contrary opinion would be.
Even in comparing two opinions on right and wrong assumes an objective standard. That objective standard has to come from somewhere, or it’s arbitrary and futile and invalid.
Unfortunately MrB, some concepts are simply beyond some people’s critical-thinking ability.
There’s no ‘there’ there.
Because it’s the winning option. All others lesson the chance for survival and perpetuation of the species.
Why is lessening the survival of the species an undesirable option? Again, the “should” factor is HUGE.
And why would we be “evolved” to have to propensity to violate it if it were something hardwired?
MrB and I are having a civil conversation. He has not disrespected or insulted me, and I hope that he has not felt disrespected or insulted. You should look to his example of proper behavior, and at least offer something to the discussion before insulting me unprovoked.
Gotta go - you can find “Mere Christianity” online, or at the library, or on audio if you prefer.
Lewis explains it better than I ever could.
I did offer something to the discussion.
You were offended for no reason.
Because that’s how life works. Successful species ensure the best chance of survival. Unsuccessful species become extinct.
I’m not sure that I agree that we have evolved to have a propensity to violate it.
Were you not referring to my critical thinking ability?
This is a non sequitur.
The fact that this is 'how life works' does not mean that it is an objective standard.
“... unclouded by sentiment, free from comforting illusions,”’
Oh, he is, is he? Free from comforting illusions? It has long been my belief that the chief attraction of atheisim is the comforting illusion that a man may do as HE pleases. I hope and pray Mr. Hitchins ego doesn’t blind him to the bitter end of the Truth of his being and Life.
Are you claiming that there are no concepts that are beyond your critical-thinking capability?
If not, what objective standard are you using to define it an 'insult' to point that out?
“It does not take a god to instill a good sense of right and wrong.”
No, it takes a God to immutably define right and wrong and thereby provide a consistent basis for understanding it. If there is no God then your “right and wrong” goes only as far as you and your guys and your guns can take it. It certainly may not mean a damn thing to me. Why should YOUR opinions count more generally than anyone elses?
"No, it takes a God to immutably define right and wrong and thereby provide a consistent basis for understanding it."
I suppose I would have asked how a person knows that "It does not take a god to instill a good sense of right and wrong"? There is no way to 'know' that.
It can only be assumed by begging the question in the first place.
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