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Volt Fraud At Government Motors
IBD Editorials ^ | October 19, 2010 | Investors Business Daily staff

Posted on 10/19/2010 4:28:35 PM PDT by Kaslin

Green Technology: Government Motors' all-electric car isn't all-electric and doesn't get near the touted hundreds of miles per gallon. Like "shovel-ready" jobs, maybe there's no such thing as "plug-ready" cars either.

The Chevy Volt, hailed by the Obama administration as the electric savior of the auto industry and the planet, makes its debut in showrooms next month, but it's already being rolled out for test drives by journalists. It appears we're all being taken for a ride.

When President Obama visited a GM plant in Hamtramck near Detroit a few months ago to drive a Chevy Volt 10 feet off an assembly line, we called the car an "electric Edsel." Now that it's about to hit the road, nothing revealed has changed our mind.

Advertised as an all-electric car that could drive 50 miles on its lithium battery, GM addressed concerns about where you plug the thing in en route to grandma's house by adding a small gasoline engine to help maintain the charge on the battery as it starts to run down. It was still an electric car, we were told, and not a hybrid on steroids.

That's not quite true. The gasoline engine has been found to be more than a range-extender for the battery. Volt engineers are now admitting that when the vehicle's lithium-ion battery pack runs down and at speeds near or above 70 mph, the Volt's gasoline engine will directly drive the front wheels along with the electric motors. That

(Excerpt) Read more at investors.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Government
KEYWORDS: chevtvolt; chevy; electriccar; electriccars; electricedsel; generalmotors; gm; governmentmotors; hybrid; hybrids; ibd; ibdchevyvolt; industrialpolicy; obama; obamacar; volt; voltfraud
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1 posted on 10/19/2010 4:28:36 PM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

About time one of two possible points get addressed: 1) There’s probably more efficient storage of electricity in capacitors or 2) Consumer demand is flexible. Some folks like myself use gas guzzlers, because so many thousands of dollars aren’t worth it for a car in which a primarily travel short commutes.


2 posted on 10/19/2010 4:33:49 PM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: Kaslin

Have any FReepers seen the surprisingly politically correct auto press mention this Volt scam?


3 posted on 10/19/2010 4:36:39 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: jjotto

Politically correct but technologically ignorant.


4 posted on 10/19/2010 4:39:11 PM PDT by JayVee (Joseph)
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To: Morpheus2009

Not to mention the fact that if you have a crum-cruncher or two or three, a prius is highly ineffective.... especially if you carpool. Oh, and how about those of use with toys, like boats.

230MPG. What a joke. It’s like they think we can wave a magic wand and make cars move.


5 posted on 10/19/2010 4:41:52 PM PDT by laxcoach (Government is greedy. Taxpayers who want their own money are not greedy.)
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To: JayVee

I’m Shocked!...cue Captain Renault


6 posted on 10/19/2010 4:43:17 PM PDT by DAC21
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To: Kaslin

Volts for dolts.


7 posted on 10/19/2010 4:49:22 PM PDT by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: Kaslin

How dependable and expandable is the supply of lithium? Bolivia accounts for about half of the world supply and sends it to ...China. WE are beginning a resource war inseparable from developing currency wars...and lithium is not even a rare earth element required for use in advanced electric motors and switching devices, etc. We may not get past the Chevy Volt.

Nothing but increasing trouble ahead, and the middle class is being squashed, offered crap products to buy which it will eventually be forced to buy instead of marshalling its great creative powers for the good of the country and the sustenance of the middle class by allowing it to create products of value. Govt. wants to own and control all US creation...not a sustainable idea.


8 posted on 10/19/2010 4:53:28 PM PDT by givemELL (Does Taiwan eet the Criteria to Qualify as an "Overseas Territory of the United States"? by Richar)
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To: Kaslin

nothing but the best with our money....way to spend it wisely Obama.


9 posted on 10/19/2010 5:08:39 PM PDT by oust the louse (When you subsidize poverty and failure, you get more of both.)
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To: Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; EricTheRed_VocalMinority; ...

The list, ping

Let me know if you would like to be on or off the ping list

http://www.nachumlist.com/


10 posted on 10/19/2010 5:10:20 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: givemELL

Don’t worry about power, even after 0 closes the coal powered Power Plants. Power is synthesized by magic in the Garage Wall, Else how can the Volt be emission free.


11 posted on 10/19/2010 5:11:08 PM PDT by barb-tex (What else did you expect from the likes of 0?)
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To: Kaslin
We heard GM's then-CEO Fritz Henderson claim the Volt would get 230 miles per gallon in city conditions. Popular Mechanics found the Volt to get about 37.5 mpg in city driving, and Motor Trend reports: "Without any plugging in, (a weeklong trip to Grandma's house) should return fuel economy in the high 30s to low 40s."

I'll stick with my current (no pun intended) 50mpg commuter vehicle:


12 posted on 10/19/2010 5:23:42 PM PDT by Antonello (Oh my God, don't shoot the banana!)
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To: Kaslin
I'm tired of all this Volt trashing even before the car is out. The early reviews from Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road & Track are excellent and the Volt is living up to what it was predicted to be. Investors' Business Daily is doing a hack job on the Volt but I'll bet the person(s) who wrote this article have never changed a set of spark plugs.

There is an issue of how the car performs in the change sustain mode under very specific conditions. When the car is in charge sustain mode AND at speed limits exceeding 70 miles per hour, the electric motors get a small mechanical boost from the ICE engine. This is complicated for everyone here except the Gear Heads. GM Engineers found out during testing that they could get a 15% efficiency boost in this configuration. It could have worked as all electric but it simply would not have given the same gas mileage. So what were they supposed to do? The bottom line is that the car is working great. The folks over at Investors' Business Daily simple want to see the Volt fail and its success will just kill them.

Some reminders for the folks here. The Volt was conceived of and started in 2006 BEFORE Obama was elected and long before the bailout. If GM had not taken the bailout, many would be singing the praises of this remarkable vehicle. Again, don't let your dislike of Obama and the bailout cloud your judgement of the Volt. EREV is the future of automotive technology.

Volt Range

Drive System Explained

Motor Trend Article on Volt
13 posted on 10/19/2010 5:40:29 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: truthguy

You can have it


14 posted on 10/19/2010 5:45:01 PM PDT by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin
So it's not an all-electric car, but rather a pricey $41,000 hybrid that requires a taxpayer-funded $7,500 subsidy to get car shoppers to look at it.

41K?!! There are a lot of fully loaded luxury cars available for that kind of money. How many people are going to shell out for this silly battery on wheels?

15 posted on 10/19/2010 5:48:47 PM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd = TRUE)
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To: barb-tex
Don’t worry about power, even after 0 closes the coal powered Power Plants. Power is synthesized by magic in the Garage Wall.

There are even some FReepers who don't understand where the electricity will come from to power these electric toys; not to mention the delivery infrastrucure.

I'm looking foward to major brown-outs in Energy-Free California.

16 posted on 10/19/2010 5:50:49 PM PDT by Cobra64
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To: truthguy

GM didn’t reveal all the details until the patents were submitted. The mechanical drive portion makes perfect sense.


17 posted on 10/19/2010 5:51:16 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: jjotto
Not a scam JJOTTO. Just read what MOTOR TREND has to say about the Volt. Don't pay so much attention to publications like Investors Business Daily. They don't know anything about cars.

Try this:
Volt Review
18 posted on 10/19/2010 6:44:50 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: Cobra64
I'm looking foward to major brown-outs in Energy-Free California.

You may be looking at more than that. In Smart Grid meetings I've been hearing that having too many PEV (3? 4? 5?) charging stations off a pole transformer active simultaneously is a problem and can blow the transformer if unregulated. Now I've heard some wrong numbers this week but one speaker said that just 2 would be a problem.

19 posted on 10/19/2010 6:47:21 PM PDT by sionnsar (IranAzadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5:SONY|TV--it's NOT news you can trust)
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To: Morpheus2009
Some folks like myself use gas guzzlers, because so many thousands of dollars aren’t worth it for a car in which a primarily travel short commutes.

I doubt a volt would pull my 5th Wheel trailer.

20 posted on 10/19/2010 6:47:44 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others)
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To: truthguy; Kaslin
1. How would the volt manage a norther tier winter?

2. Will it pull my 5th Wheel trailer?

3. How does the price, including replacement cost of batteries, compare to similar fully gasoline engine automobiles in its class (not including the governments generous taxpayer subsidy)?

21 posted on 10/19/2010 6:53:19 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others)
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To: 6SJ7
41K?!! There are a lot of fully loaded luxury cars available for that kind of money. How many people are going to shell out for this silly battery on wheels?

Lots of people will shell out this type of money. And the buyers of a luxury Lexus or BMW are not the same people who will buy the Volt. It's going to be next to impossible to get a Volt for the next two years as the units scheduled for production will easily sell out.

And one more question. Do any of you Volt detractors think the Wright Brothers could have started out with a 747? Do any of you remember what cell phones were like even 15 years ago? Already GM is working on the second generation which will have better specs and will be cheaper. Why so much negativity with the initial release? You have to start somewhere and this is a pretty damn good start.

See Car and Driver

Car & Driver Review
22 posted on 10/19/2010 6:56:12 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: nascarnation
Yes, you are absolutely correct and I think they did the right thing. Why sacrifice 15% efficiency? The Volt is a winner and it's killing many on this site that the damn thing works as advertised. I know many don't like GM because of the bailout and I wish GM had a standard Chapter 11 bailout. But what's done is done and I wish GM, Ford, and Chrysler all the luck in the world. We need to keep manufacturing alive and well in the US. Not everyone can work for Google or Apple. We still need base manufacturing and the Automobile Industry is a big part of this.
23 posted on 10/19/2010 7:01:00 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: truthguy

Wait till you get your electric bill. The 240v charging station is an extra $2500. Ever run a 240v welder? My wife freaks when she gets the electric bill if I use it much.


24 posted on 10/19/2010 7:10:23 PM PDT by TStro
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To: Grizzled Bear
1. How would the volt manage a norther tier winter?
2. Will it pull my 5th Wheel trailer?
3. How does the price, including replacement cost of batteries, compare to similar fully gasoline engine automobiles in its class (not including the governments generous taxpayer subsidy)?

Let's take question 2 first. It's the easiest. No it's not designed to pull trailers. Not every vehicle is right for every person. But stay tuned on this. Remember Diesel Electrics pull heavy loads so there are future possibilities here.

The Battery is guaranteed for 100K miles or 8 years. By that time batteries will be cheaper, possibly much cheaper. And the 100K is the minimum.

Question 3 is is most interesting. This is where the Volt has a huge advantage over the Nissan Leaf (an all electric). The Gasoline engine will come on to produce heat on very cold (or hot days-ac) days. You can also program the Volt to heat up before leaving for work on a cold day. Plug in the Volt to charge overnight. Let's say you leave for work at 7:00AM. The electric heater can come on at say 6:30AM and heat up the car from the electric outlet. When you get into the vehicle at 7 the car is already warmed up.
25 posted on 10/19/2010 7:12:50 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: truthguy
If you want to buy an American car, buy a Nissan that is made in Tennessee or Mississippi by non-union workers. If you buy a car made in Detroit, you might as well just write a big check to Obama or Hillary Clinton because you are DIRECTLY supporting socialism and marxism.

One cannot understate the pure evil of labor unions. They extort money from the workers (in the form of dues) and apply it towards supporting marxist and socialist political candidates who are committed to destroying America and all it stands for. On top of that, the unions tell their workers who to vote for and intimidate them into holding signs and otherwise volunteering for the campaigns of Democrats.

Unions reward sloth and destroy anybody who wishes to work hard and do a good job. They promote socialism by paying everybody exactly the same wages for the same job. If somebody calls out sick twenty times a year and drinks and smokes weed on the job, they get paid exactly the same as the poor sap who comes in every day, works hard and goes the extra mile.

In fact, unions HATE people who work hard and they seek to root them out of the workplace. They even have an expression to discourage others from working hard: "Don't kill the job." Because they know that if people do a full days work, the companies they are leeching off of might realize that they don't need to have quite so many workers on the payroll. So basically it takes seven men to dig a hole, one to hold the shovel and the other six to lean on their shovels and watch.

This is no exaggeration either. The labor unions, where they are permitted to exist, suck the blood out of our industries and like the parasites they are, they eventually destroy the host.

26 posted on 10/19/2010 7:15:06 PM PDT by SamAdams76 (I am 42 days away from outliving Curly Howard)
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To: TStro
Wait till you get your electric bill. The 240v charging station is an extra $2500. Ever run a 240v welder? My wife freaks when she gets the electric bill if I use it much.

Charger costs $495. See link. It may cost more if you are electrically challenged and need to hire an electrician to install. See Article:
Charger

At $3.00/gal and using $0.11/kWh, the volt costs about 1/6 as much as gasoline to drive in the Charge Depletion mode. Adjust numbers as necessary.
27 posted on 10/19/2010 7:20:53 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: truthguy; Kaslin
The Battery is guaranteed for 100K miles or 8 years. By that time batteries will be cheaper, possibly much cheaper. And the 100K is the minimum.

Upon what do you base the claim that batteries will be cheaper? If they are cheaper, can I pay for them with magical skittles pooped out by my friend the unicorn?

Look, there's a place and a market for the volt. However, I resent my tax dollars going towards a bail out for the company or towards off-setting the price for the buyers.

There's a reason we haven't seen a new model Studabaker this year. You let businesses die; others will fill the void. That's where real innovation arrives.

28 posted on 10/19/2010 7:21:41 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others)
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To: truthguy
Lots of people will shell out this type of money. And the buyers of a luxury Lexus or BMW are not the same people who will buy the Volt. It's going to be next to impossible to get a Volt for the next two years as the units scheduled for production will easily sell out.

Let them pay for them without my tax dollars.

Do any of you Volt detractors think the Wright Brothers could have started out with a 747?

How much did the Wright Brothers receive from Uncle Sugar before Kitty-hawk? Later, after they proved a success, the government purchased their planes and services. The early aircraft was tested for military uses, especially reconnaissance.

The government handouts do not fit this criteria.

29 posted on 10/19/2010 7:26:55 PM PDT by Grizzled Bear (Does not play well with others)
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To: SamAdams76
If you want to buy an American car, buy a Nissan that is made in Tennessee or Mississippi by non-union workers.

Correction. Nissans are assembled in Tennessee and Mississippi (or wherever). There's a big difference between manufacturing and low-tech final assembly which is what most people do in the transplants. And if GM and Ford were ever to go down you can bet your last dollar that the transplants would instantly leave the US. They really don't want to be here and they are only here because they were forced to manufacture here by trade conditions imposed upon them during the Reagan administration. If the US had no leverage on the transplants in the form of US Manufacturing, they would leave in a millisecond.

By the way, I cannot stand the UAW either but we still need manufacturing here and the US and we will have to deal with the UAW for the time being. In the not to distant future, they WILL go away. But we must not cut off our nose to spite our face.
30 posted on 10/19/2010 7:29:26 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: Grizzled Bear
Look, there's a place and a market for the volt. However, I resent my tax dollars going towards a bail out for the company or towards off-setting the price for the buyers.

I don't like it either but remember that the Volt was started before the bailout. It was also started before Obama was elected. It was started before he was elected Senator from Illinois.

This nasty recession was started by government policies. GM was making the painful steps to be competitive before it got clobbered by this recession. If not for this recession, it would not have needed the bailout. Also many government policies have helped to make GM not as competitive as possible. And NEVER forget that every automaker in the world gets some government subsidy in some form. This is particularly true for the Japanese Manufacturers.
31 posted on 10/19/2010 7:37:58 PM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: Grizzled Bear
How much did the Wright Brothers receive from Uncle Sugar before Kitty-hawk?

Uncle was throwing money at Samuel Langley while the Wrights were developing real flyable aircraft on a shoestring budget.

32 posted on 10/19/2010 8:00:11 PM PDT by thulldud (Is it "alter or abolish" time yet?)
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To: Grizzled Bear

1. How would the volt manage a northern tier winter?

One man in Canada mentioned having a heated and insulated garage to run his electric car. But when you think about the energy to heat a garage, that might defeat the savings of supposedly running a volt. The volt also has a gas motor, which you would need to run a little to warm it up when it was cold. I am not sure but it does sound complicated.

2. Will it pull my 5th wheel trailer?

I doubt it. The car uses an immense amount of added wait on the battery alone. Which is why I mentioned capacitors in an earlier post. Capacitors don’t carry weight from a complex network of power cells and chemical solutions within like a battery does.

3. How does the price, including replacement cost of batteries, compare to similar fully gasoline engine automobiles in its class?

I would say that a regular gasoline automobile would be cheaper to you upfront. This isn’t including the possible payments you would need to make on whatever loans you took out to buy the car. Gasoline cars were the key to making automobiles perhaps the most personally owned vehicles ever. Not even horse-drawn carts were as commonly owned as Henry Ford made the automobile. The Volt Price is over $40,000.00 as a starting price, compare that to just about every other car you see advertised such as in the paper or your local dealer.


33 posted on 10/19/2010 8:02:11 PM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: Morpheus2009

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jul/27/business/la-fi-autos-volt-20100727

This is the link to the price of the Volt.


34 posted on 10/19/2010 8:02:48 PM PDT by Morpheus2009
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To: truthguy
By the way, I cannot stand the UAW either but we still need manufacturing here and the US and we will have to deal with the UAW for the time being.

I do not agree. Saying that we have to get along with the labor unions is no different than saying we have to get along with RINO candidates like Mike Castle. Well against all the conventional wisdom, Christine O'Donnell defeated Mike Castle and she may yet win in two weeks against Coons. But even if she does not, we have the satisfaction of sticking to our principles and relegating Castle to the dustbin of history.

These unions that you claim we must get along with are spending over $100 million this election cycle to "Save the Democrat Majorities."

So to hell with "go along to get along". Unions are the enemy.

35 posted on 10/19/2010 8:04:42 PM PDT by SamAdams76 (I am 42 days away from outliving Curly Howard)
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To: givemELL
and lithium is not even a rare earth element required for use in advanced electric motors and switching devices

Yep. You're on it. When it appears our access to rare earth elements is going to be limited, and in a pinch they might be needed for defense, it makes no sense to pursue sumps of strategic materials to remedy a 'global warming' problem that does not exist.

There are just too many levels of stupid involved for this sort of thing to be anything but an intentional misallocation of resources.

36 posted on 10/20/2010 12:13:36 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing.)
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To: SamAdams76
I think you have not understood what I meant. I said for the time being. We are not going to get rid of the UAW tomorrow. But we cannot throw out the baby with the bathwater. The key phrase is “time being”. New hires at the US manufacturers’ are working for the same wages as non-union. This is an economic fact of life. It's either that or the US Manufacturers go out of business. Just like the public employee unions, they are faced with give backs. But we aren't going to get rid of these unions except over time with policies that will make the irrelevant.
37 posted on 10/20/2010 12:19:50 AM PDT by truthguy (Good intentions are not enough.)
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To: truthguy
Remember Diesel Electrics pull heavy loads so there are future possibilities here.

Now they just have to figure how to get one of these diesel locomotive prime movers inside the car.


38 posted on 10/20/2010 5:20:12 AM PDT by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd = TRUE)
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To: Kaslin

So, this overpriced pile of tin gets city mileage of about one fifth what was claimed, maybe. On the highway it fails to equal cars that were available in the seventies with very simple drive trains and at eighty miles per hour it won’t do any better and probably not as well as my 2004 Mercury Grand Marquis Limited Edition, a car that is very comfortable to drive and not cramped at all even for me and I am six four barefoot.

No thanks, government motors.


39 posted on 10/20/2010 5:32:10 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Clem Hussein Kadiddlehopper would be a vast improvement.)
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To: truthguy

Do any of you remember what cell phones were like even 15 years ago?
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

I do, a small simple device that allowed you to make and receive calls without all the useless features that are touted now. I liked cell phones then, I don’t even have one now, I can’t use the ones I see now without having a pointed instrument to use in dialing and I need reading glasses to see the letters.


40 posted on 10/20/2010 5:40:07 AM PDT by RipSawyer (Clem Hussein Kadiddlehopper would be a vast improvement.)
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To: RipSawyer

I noticed that too - decent city mileage, but highway appears to be rather poor. The VW Jetta TDI Diesel are getting around 40-45 real-world combined MPG in a decent-sized car with great driveability.

I suppose that if you wanted a small runabout city car to park next to your larger vehicle, this might fit the bill. But, there are a few present-day conventional gas-powered small cars that can do the same, without the complexity of the hybrid - the Ford Fiesta, for example.

It’s interesting to note that the small, light cars aren’t as small and light as they used to be. This is due to the safety nazis pushing side air bags and all that crap, whether we want them or not. I’d love to see today’s engines in a 10-year-old car that weighs 400-500 pounds less.

The Ford Escape is one example - back in 2003 which was the model year I owned, they weighed around 3200-3300 pounds. A couple of years later, they were in the 3600-3700 pound range, due to required safety gear. That extra weight takes its toll on mileage.


41 posted on 10/20/2010 5:54:14 AM PDT by meyer (Tax the productive to carry the freeloaders - What is it with democrats and slavery?)
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To: Antonello

Oh HELL YEAH!

And there is no such thing as “sluggish response” to the throttle, either!


42 posted on 10/20/2010 5:57:13 AM PDT by MortMan (To Obama "Kill them all and let [God] sort them out" is an abortion slogan.)
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To: 6SJ7
Now they just have to figure how to get one of these diesel locomotive prime movers inside the car.

"I think we're gonna need a bigger Volt."

43 posted on 10/20/2010 5:57:18 AM PDT by tnlibertarian
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To: truthguy

Apparently good intentions are plenty in your eyes.

Personally, I don’t care if the Volt is the best car on wheels. It is produced by a company who donated all of its bad debt to the American taxpayer. This same company was then wrapped up as a gift to the labor unions. These same labor unions are now looking to cash out, exchanging my tax dollars for money in their pockets.

GM and Chrysler are dead to me.

You make a good shill, though. I have to give you that.


44 posted on 10/20/2010 6:05:26 AM PDT by MortMan (To Obama "Kill them all and let [God] sort them out" is an abortion slogan.)
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To: truthguy

truthguy, are you saying that IBD lied about the true MPG in testing? I don’t care how gee-whiz the technology is; it’s the MPG which matters, and that MPG sucks and is nothing like what was claimed for this car.

You can spin it any way you want, but you can’t change the fact that the car is a fraud.


45 posted on 10/20/2010 7:30:08 AM PDT by dinodino
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To: truthguy

How come there is a charger if they went with a small gas engine? Why not just use that to replenish the batteries?


46 posted on 10/20/2010 7:51:12 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Democrats are for free speech. Just not for you.)
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To: Nachum; markomalley; Carlucci; grey_whiskers; meyer; WL-law; Para-Ord.45; 70th Division; ...

Ping


47 posted on 10/20/2010 8:01:36 AM PDT by raptor22 (The truth will set us free)
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To: Morpheus2009
Some folks like myself use gas guzzlers, because so many thousands of dollars aren’t worth it for a car in which a primarily travel short commutes.

And after paying a premium of thousands or tens of thousands of dollars, you're stuck with a car where replacing the batteries when they wear out will cost thousands or tens of thousands. Here in AZ, conventional lead-acid batteries fail in about 2 years, and I know they're trying to develop more durable battery technology, so it's not entirely apples to apples, but any battery will wear out eventually. I don't want to have to in effect replace the engine on my car every few years. My truck is 15 years old, has 200K miles, and is showing no sign of slowing down.

48 posted on 10/20/2010 8:26:12 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: raptor22

Everything associated with the Imam’s Regime and this thug Congress is fraud, don’t ya think? Proven fact!


49 posted on 10/20/2010 8:28:58 AM PDT by ExTexasRedhead (Take back our country on November 2, 2010. Let's Roll!!!)
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To: laxcoach
It’s like they think we can wave a magic wand and make cars move.

Don't know if it's an urban legend or not, but I heard a story about a group of very young government weenies meeting with car execs and engineers about car design. Well, the car guys told the goobers that what they wanted to do was "against the laws of physics". The goobs immediately started scratching in notebooks to research whatever law this was and get it repealed!

50 posted on 10/20/2010 8:29:22 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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