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The dirty side of Toyota Prius
Automotive News ^ | October 18, 2010 | None Listed

Posted on 10/20/2010 5:19:04 AM PDT by Lockbox

The dirty side of Toyota Prius

The Toyota Prius is among the greenest cars to operate. But manufacturing the famous gasoline-electric hybrid can be a dirty business.

Toyota studied the car's total environmental impact from factory to junkyard.

Not surprisingly, the fuel-efficient Prius was better than average in its class of vehicles in lifetime emissions of carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide and sulfur oxide, according to Toyota.

But it was slightly worse than average in emissions of nonmethane hydrocarbons and particulate matter. Toyota says this is because producing hybrid-only parts such as motors, inverters and nickel-metal hydride batteries consumes more energy and creates more emissions.

In fact, when looking at the "materials manufacturing" phase of the car's life cycle, the Prius was worse than the class average across all five emissions categories.

Toyota said it conducted life cycle emissions assessments on eight vehicle series last year and used the results to help redesign such models as the Prius, Lexus RX 450h and HS 250h and such Japan-market vehicles as the Wish minivan and Mark X sedan.

Read more: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20101018/OEM01/310189979#ixzz12trBMdoe


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Japan; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: cobalt; congo; green; prius; zambia
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I love this comment from the article:

patriot wrote: Cobalt,much needed ingredient for EV batteries.Zambia and The Congo are two countries in Africa blessed with this element.Does toyota or any other EV or hybrid producing car company care that their vehicle purchase helps pay for murder and enviromental ruin in Africa.People who buy these things like to think they are GREEN,helping the environoment.Who's environment are they helping?Certainly not AFRICA'S

1 posted on 10/20/2010 5:19:05 AM PDT by Lockbox
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To: Lockbox

for th ecrowd that buys those things..it ain’t about “being green” as much as it is about “feeling good” about themselves.


2 posted on 10/20/2010 5:23:57 AM PDT by mo
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To: Lockbox

These initiatives seem to do a lot of damage — all in a vast effort to limit carbon dioxide, which is a harmless (even beneficial) substance. Carbon is a boondoggle.


3 posted on 10/20/2010 5:25:07 AM PDT by ClearCase_guy
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To: ClearCase_guy

CO2 is not a pollutant.


4 posted on 10/20/2010 5:31:45 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (Impeachment !)
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To: ClearCase_guy

These hybrid cars damage the environment more in pollution than a traditional gas powered vehicle. They are cost-inefficient and impractical.

Snobs don’t realize it.

- the production of the Hummer, does far less damage to the environment than the production of the Toyota Prius, such that driving it for 300,000 miles is far better for the environment than driving a Toyota Prius for 100,000 miles, due to the smelter pollution used to make the Nickel-Cadmium batteries.

- As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the “dead zone” around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

- The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalists nightmare.

- The nickel produced by this disastrous plant is shipped via massive container ship to the largest nickel refinery in Europe. From there, the nickel hops over to China to produce nickel foam. From there, it goes to Japan. Finally, the completed batteries are shipped to the United States, finalizing the around-the-world trip required to produce a single Prius battery.


5 posted on 10/20/2010 5:33:23 AM PDT by WaterBoard
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To: mo
it is about “feeling good” about themselves.

Maybe we should tag the car 'Blood Prius' like the libs tagged 'Blood Diamonds'.

6 posted on 10/20/2010 5:38:00 AM PDT by Lockbox
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To: Lockbox
Like I tell my brother who bought a Prius, if you are a man and you bought one of these, ahhhh you look kinda — well let me say the military is now open for you.
7 posted on 10/20/2010 5:40:09 AM PDT by NavyCanDo
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To: Lockbox
But but...driving a Pious makes you feel good.


8 posted on 10/20/2010 5:41:03 AM PDT by reagan_fanatic (Today, Congress. Tomorrow, the White House!)
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To: Lockbox

Mining does help the economy of Zambia and the Congo, no doubt.

Of course, these Kleptocracies have such a screwed up economic system, it is hard to be confident that this business is helping the average Joe.


9 posted on 10/20/2010 5:41:26 AM PDT by Haiku Guy (Anything not about elephants is irrelephant.)
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To: Lockbox

i bought the car because it has an above average record of reliability, ave-above average features, great gas mileage, and expect to keep it for 200,000 miles, like i have 2 of the last 3cars i bought. I really dont care about the “green aspect” at all.


10 posted on 10/20/2010 5:41:41 AM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
expect to keep it for 200,000 miles

The battery is warrantied for 8 years/100,000 miles, unless you are in California. No one knows how long the battery will last. If your Prius battery goes out after the warranty period, would you replace the battery?

11 posted on 10/20/2010 5:47:52 AM PDT by Lockbox
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To: WaterBoard
-- The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the “dead zone” around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.--

--this is so much environmental hogwash. The Canadian mining industry has been under restrictive environmental rules for years , just as it is in the US--

12 posted on 10/20/2010 5:49:15 AM PDT by rellimpank (--don't believe anything the MSM tells you about firearms or explosives--NRA Benefactor)
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To: Lockbox

there probably arent too many 200k priuses out there now, but battery failure has been quite rare >100k, conceding the technology has been around for 9-10 years so we dont know for sure if/when problems arise in significant number at 150k if not 100k. we will see, i believe there will be a relatively inexpensive secondary market for them in 7 years as more of them are on the road.

is the prius a sure fire thing to “come out ahead”? no, but imho there is a pretty good chance. obviously a lot will depend on price of gas, and like every good freeper i want to drill baby drill and “coal keeps the lights on”. still, betting against the common sense and competence of US govt seems like a reasonable bet. even if we start drilling, it will take years to reap benefits from some of these places.


13 posted on 10/20/2010 6:04:56 AM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman

My daughter bought one of the first Toyota Sienas off the assembly line about 7 years ago. She loves the car, but she will never buy a Toyota ANYTHING again because of poor, arrogant, overly-expensive service by the dealers (three different dealers in the upstate NY and Bergen County, NJ area).

In the beginning there was the constant pressure to buy stupid options from Toyota. The $90 First Aid Kit comes to mind — little more than a box of band aids with the Toyota logo on the box. She refused to buy the car on the lot because they insisted that she also purchase the band aids. (Do they honestly think that any mother of 3 active boys does not already travel with band aids in her purse?)

So, she ordered a different car from the dealer in the color she wanted WITHOUT the band aids and waited 3 months for it. As soon as it arrived, they tried to pressure her to take the dumb First Aid kit anyway. That experience was followed by repeated little recalls to fix this, or that, minor problem that should have been caught before the car was delivered to her.

Then there was the flap about the tires that seemed to wear out too quickly. The dealer was making her have them rotated (at high expense) every 10,000 miles. Ridiculous. I have another friend in Wisconsin who had the same problem with her Toyota dealer and Sienna van.

Now that my daughter’s van has 90,000 miles on it, the cable that operates the automatic sliding door suddenly snapped. It costs $1900 to have it repaired in NY. Plus they put the car up on the lift and told her she had another $2000 worth of repairs that had to be done immediately. She had just had this car inspected elsewhere, and it had been given the green light for another 10,000 miles before any further maintenance needed to be performed. My daughter told the dealer just to disconnect the cable and she would operate the door manually, and she had to fight with them to do that.

Then, she pointed out that a seat belt on the rear captain’s chair was worn and frayed and ready to break. She inquired about a new one and they gave her a price of $150 with another $150 to install it. She ordered the seat belt and paid in advance. When she went to the dealer to have it installed, they jacked her around on the installation price, changed the time of check in and check out and tried to charge her $300 labor for installation. To add insult to injury they told her that Toyota would probablly have provided the belt and installation for “free” since it was a safety issure, but they wouldn’t because she had taken the car to another garage for oil changes, etc. The reason she has her oil changed elsewhere is that Toyota charges 3 times as much as her more convenient local garage.

Furthermore, she has had 2 friends at 2 different deallerships whose husbands have been in charge of the repair department. They have confided to her privately that the dealerships are all like that — high pressure on the maintenance guys to sell add ons and unneeded repairs.

She loves that van, but she will never do business with Toyota again. This business with teh seat belt was the last straw.


14 posted on 10/20/2010 6:16:38 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: NavyCanDo
Hey Squidly, this Army Vet bought one of those Prius and I am delighted with it...especially when the limp wrist liberals try to tell me I have no right to own it because of the US Army Retired decal.

So tell me, do you suffer from any other problems in addition to "Prius Envy"?

15 posted on 10/20/2010 6:20:41 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman

Re-reading my rant — her Toyota dealer was insisting that she rotate those tires every 5000 miles. That is, until her father talked sense into her.


16 posted on 10/20/2010 6:21:13 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic
..high pressure on the maintenance guys to sell add ons and unneeded repairs.

You must be talking about the local Government Motors dealer in my town.

They have a very bad reputation for doing those things.

17 posted on 10/20/2010 6:23:41 AM PDT by TYVets
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To: afraidfortherepublic

i dont like some of the dealers either ; thought the last one actually was pretty decent. Bought car over internet/email with about 9% disc off msrp and sale went down smoothly just as promised.

i am quite fortunate to have an independent toyota-certified mechanic whom i know personally. Will use him instead of dealer even for first 2 free maintenances that now i will pay for. Everyone should try to find an independent mechanic thru church, work or friend. Keeps the good mechanics busy with good cutomers.


18 posted on 10/20/2010 6:25:06 AM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
i bought the car because it has an above average record of reliability, ave-above average features, great gas mileage, and expect to keep it for 200,000 miles, like i have 2 of the last 3cars i bought. I really dont care about the “green aspect” at all.

I can go along with that. like all the bad press about the chevy volt, I wouldnt mind having one for a commuter car other than it having a high price tag and the fact that my tax dollars built it. from some real world tests it works pretty good.

19 posted on 10/20/2010 6:25:27 AM PDT by 09Patriot (your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be from you.--Wilkow)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman
i bought the car because it has an above average record of reliability, ave-above average features, great gas mileage, and expect to keep it for 200,000 miles, like i have 2 of the last 3cars i bought. I really dont care about the “green aspect” at all.

I can go along with that. like all the bad press about the chevy volt, I wouldnt mind having one for a commuter car other than it having a high price tag and the fact that my tax dollars built it. from some real world tests it works pretty good.

20 posted on 10/20/2010 6:25:32 AM PDT by 09Patriot (your freedom to be you, includes my freedom to be from you.--Wilkow)
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To: Redleg Duke

hahaha, you drive a prius, hahaha. what color did you get? Pink?


21 posted on 10/20/2010 6:31:33 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman

That is what my daughter has done, but (as you can see) there are some things that you need to get from the dealer. It’s obvious that the dealer is discriminating about what they charge according to where you have your work done. The fact that this dealer actually falsified the labor record on my daughter’s seat belt replacement (she caught him) and then taunted her over how often she used that dealership was simply outrageous.

And the fact that my friend has had similar problems with her dealer and her van says “consumer beware” when dealing with Toyota repairs.


22 posted on 10/20/2010 6:36:10 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: mamelukesabre

No, they said they had only one of that color and it was reserved for you.


23 posted on 10/20/2010 6:37:49 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: Redleg Duke
“So tell me, do you suffer from any other problems in addition to “Prius Envy”?”

If it can tow my boat, along with all our camping gear over the Cascades, I'm beautiful with it.

24 posted on 10/20/2010 6:41:08 AM PDT by NavyCanDo
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To: NavyCanDo
That's what our Tundra does. The Prius gets me down to Hanscom AFB to work every day...90 miles round trip.

The proper tool for the job.

25 posted on 10/20/2010 6:46:52 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: NavyCanDo
That's what our Tundra does. The Prius gets me down to Hanscom AFB to work every day...90 miles round trip.

The proper tool for the job.

26 posted on 10/20/2010 6:46:59 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: TYVets

You are right about that — at least in the old days. However, our local dealers are now posting oil change, etc. prices, and they match the prices of the Jiffy Lubes around here.

I drive a Cadillac and have found, however, that I can order Cadillac parts from the Chevrolet dealer at a serious discount over Cadillac. I understand that the hourly rate for labor is less that Cadillac too. It pays to shop around.

I am in the process of replacing a front bumper. I’m having front parking sensors installed too because it is the 2nd front bumper that my husband has cracked pulling into a snowbank in the winter!

Purchase of a new bumper has been interesting. The bumper shell is $400+ from Cadillac. It’s $300 from Chevrolet, and we ordered it there. Because we found an auto-restoration and paint shop that will install the sensors in the blank bumper and match the paint we paid him a visit for paint samples, etc. and to discuss the work.

“Where are you getting your bumper? Shall I order it?”

“No,” says my husband, “I’m ordering it. I got a really good price.”

“I can get you any bumper you want for $175.”

Needless to say, we’ve canceled the bumper order at the Chevy dealer and we’re allowing the restoration/paint/sensor guy to supply the bumper. And he’s going to spray the back bumper too when he does the front. I already have sensors on the back. He does simply beautiful work.

Toni Tennille used to sing a song about “You gotta shop around”. She was talking about a man, but the same advice is good on cars and car repairs.


27 posted on 10/20/2010 6:48:34 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: mamelukesabre

silver to match our lexuses, ok with you?


28 posted on 10/20/2010 6:49:20 AM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: Redleg Duke
Hey Squidly, this Army Vet bought one of those Prius and I am delighted with it...especially when the limp wrist liberals try to tell me I have no right to own it because of the US Army Retired decal.

As a conservative, I only have one thing to say - your choice as a consumer led you to buy the vehicle you determined to fit your needs.

As an accountant, I have to ask, did your purchase pencil?

29 posted on 10/20/2010 6:50:47 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberalism can be summed up thusly: someone craps their pants and we all have to wear diapers)
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To: Piers-the-Ploughman

Good to see that you took a logical approach to the purchase. I’m looking at the VW Diesel myself. The government is determined to drive the price of energy up. With the new higher fuel mileage standards, the price of fuel will rise so that we have the same cost per mile as we do with today’s cars. The only way to save money is to exceed the new average fuel mileage.


30 posted on 10/20/2010 6:52:16 AM PDT by Lockbox
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To: afraidfortherepublic

I have had FOUR Honda Civic’s never a single problem with any of them

I will go buy ANOTHER one just because I want to thank them by being a loyal customer

Never felt that way about any other prooduct- except maybe Bostonian shoes- when I realized I had a 15 year old pair of shoes (worn daily and re-soled 4 times) I took my whole family out to get a pair each


31 posted on 10/20/2010 6:54:59 AM PDT by Mr. K (MORE COWBELL)
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To: Redleg Duke
The proper tool for the job.

Some (seemingly rare) common sense regarding vehicles on FR.

Thanks for presenting a practical example.

32 posted on 10/20/2010 6:55:19 AM PDT by nascarnation
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To: NavyCanDo

Like I tell my brother who bought a Prius, if you are a man and...

My son says that too.


33 posted on 10/20/2010 6:56:03 AM PDT by Chickensoup (Try Dodd and Frank for robbery and treason.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
“I can get you any bumper you want for $175.”

Be careful with that. When my 2001 Buick Regal GS was hit from behind (idiot ran from the scene, too), the insurance company went behind my back and authorized the body shop to use a non-original, aftermarket rear bumper. The thing looked like crap. I got after the insurance company because they violated Idaho law at the time - which was to inform me that, due to the age/mileage of my vehicle they could use non-OEM parts, or I could opt to pay more and get OEM parts. When I brought this up to them, they immediately got an OEM bumper and had the shop re-do it (at no additional cost to me). We finally got our car back and it looked perfect (the body shop did great, just the part sucked).

You get what you pay for - I'd ask the shop where the bumper is coming from.

34 posted on 10/20/2010 6:57:19 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberalism can be summed up thusly: someone craps their pants and we all have to wear diapers)
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To: Redleg Duke

Red, if you are A RTIRED VETERAN you earned the right to drive whatever car you like and I salute you and thank you for your service

Plus Ihope you drive the libs mad if they actually comment that you should not drive a certain type of vehicle because you don’t agree with their politics...


35 posted on 10/20/2010 6:57:33 AM PDT by Mr. K (MORE COWBELL)
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To: Lockbox

yes i considered that car also but my mechanic does not work on european cars, american and asian only, and personally i have good experience w/toyota performance so hard to switch

ford fusion: also nice, but no fold down back seat


36 posted on 10/20/2010 6:57:41 AM PDT by Piers-the-Ploughman (Just say no to circular firing squads.)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
The magic word is “NO.” Practice saying it! Say it three times when “pressured” to buy add-ons. It is as easy as that!
37 posted on 10/20/2010 7:01:21 AM PDT by Tucson Jim
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To: WaterBoard
-- The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the "dead zone" around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles. --

I see this was called out by a previous poster, but want to make the additional point that the scene described used to be true; even in the 1980's. But I have been to Sudbury, and the "dead zone" is very much alive, as the smelter emissions have been curtailed.

That said, I agree with the ultimate conclusion of the article. The so-called "green" technologies are an illusion, as only a fraction of the life and use cycle is viewed when affixing the "green" label.

38 posted on 10/20/2010 7:02:45 AM PDT by Cboldt
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To: IYAS9YAS

A lot of the metal stampings from China (both Taiwan and Red) were / are sub-par quality.
They are improving.
I’m guessing in another five years they’ll be on par.


39 posted on 10/20/2010 7:02:56 AM PDT by nascarnation
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To: Redleg Duke

I drive a ford F250. Nice try though. you and your peeus be sure to stay in the slow lane now, where you won’t get hurt.


40 posted on 10/20/2010 7:09:25 AM PDT by mamelukesabre (Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum (If you want peace prepare for war))
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To: nascarnation

The part that looked like crap was the non-metal fascia. The sad thing is, the difference in price was only about $60. It shouldn’t have been a big deal for them, as they would have been out $77 instead of $17 (my deductible was $1,000 and the total cost to repair it was $1,017). So, the difference they saved cost them ten times to correct. The cost of the second bumper, paint and labor to fix came to about $600 to fix.


41 posted on 10/20/2010 7:23:37 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberalism can be summed up thusly: someone craps their pants and we all have to wear diapers)
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To: IYAS9YAS
The cost of the second bumper, paint and labor to fix came to about $600. to fix.
42 posted on 10/20/2010 7:24:29 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberalism can be summed up thusly: someone craps their pants and we all have to wear diapers)
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To: IYAS9YAS
"As an accountant, I have to ask, did your purchase pencil?"

No, I rolled an accountant and took his! ;-)

43 posted on 10/20/2010 7:30:51 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: afraidfortherepublic
Re-reading my rant — her Toyota dealer was insisting that she rotate those tires every 5000 miles. That is, until her father talked sense into her.

The service station I went to in NC rotated my tires on every oil change - free (I'd bought the tires there, and it was part of the warranty).

I know a LOT of folks who rotate every ~5-6k miles.

44 posted on 10/20/2010 7:31:21 AM PDT by wizzardude
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To: Mr. K
Serving my country was an honor and a privilege.

Driving libs nuts is my reward!

Thanks for the kind thoughts.

45 posted on 10/20/2010 7:34:08 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: mamelukesabre
Ford = Found On the Road...Dead!

You drive carefully, too!

46 posted on 10/20/2010 7:35:39 AM PDT by Redleg Duke (RAT Hunting Season started the evening of March 21st, 2010!)
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To: IYAS9YAS

I hear you. But, I have visited this shop on 3 occasions and gotten a look at multiple other cars he’s working on — all high end restorations — and his work is superb. Plus his partner in the business (leather interiors) has done work for us before; and it has been supurb.

And I have to say that when this man approached my car from the front, and he immediately identified it as a “DHS”; I was more than impressed. When I bought the car, I searched over 3 states for a DHS and had a difficult time finding one, much less a Cadillac salesman who even knew what I was talking about. (A DHS was a particular trim, option, and gearing combination for the DeVille no longer offered by Cadillac.)

This craftsman identified my model instantly. I can attest that you can see more than 1000 Devilles on the road for every DHS. There is something different about the position of the turning, or the fog lights on a DHS in the front. I didn’t even know that, and I’ve been driving this car for more than 5 years and thought I knew every detail. I’m hoping we’ll be pleased with the finished product. The examples of his work in his shop and parked outside are breathtaking.


47 posted on 10/20/2010 7:41:54 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: IYAS9YAS

It costs about $1000 to have the bumper fixed at Cadillac. (I’ve done one before, but the insurance paid for most of that.) We already have all the extra parts — the covers for underneath (brand new), side cornering lights, etc. because my husband was going to try fixing this bumper himself. After cleaning and adjusting the shell, he has decided that it is beyond repair.

My question: Who designs a bumper that cannot withstand a gentle tap when pulling into a parking spot? I’m not the only one who has had one of these bumpers crack. As far as I know, they are still making them the same way. The problem seems to happen in the winter when you are pulling straight into a freshly plowed parking space. The snow is white, the sun is glaring, the car is white, the plastic is britle. It is hard to tell how close you are to the snow bank. One tap and you have a $1000 repair! Otherwise, I love this car.

Before I bought this Cadillac, I drove 2 Chrysler LHSs and several Pontiac Bonnevilles. I never cracked a bumper. As I remember, the Chryslers had a strip of chrome across the center of the part of the bumper that protruded the most. I don’t remember the Pontiacs at all, except that they were red.

My Cadillac is one of the models with no hood ornament, so in a white car, approaching a white snow bank, on a sunny day, it is hard to tell where the front of the car ends. It just fades into the scene. LOL.


48 posted on 10/20/2010 7:55:08 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: wizzardude

Toyota doesn’t do ANYTHING for free, if my daughter’s experience is an example. Actually I should say my daughters’ experiences. Both daughters drive Sienas. The second one hasn’t had quite as hard a time, but her car is 4 years newer too; and she lives in another part of the country. She’s also a tougher customer.


49 posted on 10/20/2010 8:00:20 AM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: afraidfortherepublic
My Cadillac is one of the models with no hood ornament, so in a white car, approaching a white snow bank, on a sunny day, it is hard to tell where the front of the car ends. It just fades into the scene. LOL.

Turn your headlights on. When you cannot see a distinct reflection of them on the snow in front of you, stop. I got used to automatic headlights coming on when I entered the garage - granted, it's dark in the garage, but when you no longer see the bright light reflected back at you, it's time to stop (usually about a foot or so away from hitting anything). I've found it works the same in daylight in parking where I work, as the spot where I park is up against a solid barrier.

50 posted on 10/20/2010 8:06:52 AM PDT by IYAS9YAS (Liberalism can be summed up thusly: someone craps their pants and we all have to wear diapers)
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