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What Media Won't Tell You About Separation of Church and State
Newsbusters ^ | October 20, 2010 | Noel Sheppard

Posted on 10/20/2010 10:03:03 AM PDT by opentalk

The media are in a full-scale hyperventilation following Tuesday's separation of church and state comments by Delaware Republican senatorial candidate Christine O'Donnell.

As an Investor's Business Daily editorial points out, O'Donnell was right when questioned about this issue during a debate with Democrat candidate Chris Coons, and all the nattering nabobs of negativism filling the airwaves are wrong:

There is, of course, no such passage. Those scoffing law scholars might want to look at the Constitution's unadorned text instead of the judicial activist law review articles that take up so much of their day.

What the Constitution does say, in the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment, is that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" — a restriction imposed upon the state to prevent its interference in religious practice.

IBD referenced Mark Levin's "Men in Black: How the Supreme Court is Destroying America."

The "Wall of Separation" phrase comes not from the Constitution, but from President Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802. As Levin notes, the obscure comment was virtually ignored for nearly a century and a half. It wasn't until 1947 when Supreme Court Justice Hugo Black ruled in the Everson case — which actually upheld the use of taxpayer money to transport children to Catholic and other parochial schools — that the Jefferson metaphor was used to establish "the anti-religious precedent that has done so much damage to religious freedom."

...Levin's argument is similar to that of the late Chief Justice William Rehnquist. In his dissent in a 1985 ruling against silent school prayer, Rehnquist pointed out: "There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the Framers intended to build the 'wall of separation' that was constitutionalized in Everson." He called Jefferson's "wall" "a metaphor based on bad history, a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judging."

... Is it any wonder that the newest Supreme Court justice, Elena Kagan, did not require the study of constitutional law when she was dean of Harvard Law School — but did require the study of foreign law? Those future federal judges graduating Harvard might catch onto the fable liberal activists have gone to such trouble weaving.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: academicbias; aclu; churchstate; constitution; coons; coonswrong; creation; creationism; evolution; firstamendment; kagan; marklevin; obama; odonnell; progressives; religion
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1 posted on 10/20/2010 10:03:07 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: opentalk

Hugo Black was a Catholic hating Klansman.


2 posted on 10/20/2010 10:05:14 AM PDT by massgopguy (I owe everything to George Bailey)
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To: opentalk

“Separation of Church and State” is in the same (liberal) Constitution wherein you can find “A Woman’s Right to Abortion.”


3 posted on 10/20/2010 10:13:35 AM PDT by TruthShallSetYouFree (If not for the double standard, liberals would have no standards at all.)
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To: opentalk

Why didn’t Christine O’Donnell tell Coons this? The clips I saw, she kept saying, “In the Constitution?” over and over. She obviously knew it wasn’t in there, so I don’t know why did she allowed everyone to laugh at her.


4 posted on 10/20/2010 10:14:09 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly (Liberals lie.)
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To: opentalk
The Constitution separates the State from the Church...
NOT the church from the State..

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Whats with all the laws passed to restrict "the Church" from "the State"..
Democrats must be dyslexic.. they reverse the context..
AND no republicans call them on it..

THIS MUST CHANGE... and it is.. The TP Caucus is growing, growing, growing..

5 posted on 10/20/2010 10:14:09 AM PDT by hosepipe (This propaganda has been edited to include some fully orbed hyperbole....)
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To: doesnt suffer fools gladly
Why doesn't the damn GOP come out and back her up?

They must KNOW she's correct - why let the media buffoons have the floor??

6 posted on 10/20/2010 10:15:48 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: opentalk

I don’t need the Media to tell me about Separation of Church and State.

First off, they do not even have the terminology right, little lone any answer.

What the founding fathers referred to was the Separation of THE POWERS of CHURCH, and THE POWERS of STATE.


7 posted on 10/20/2010 10:15:48 AM PDT by UCANSEE2 (lame and ill-informed post)
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To: TruthShallSetYouFree

“Separation of Church and State” is in the same (liberal) Constitution wherein you can find “A Woman’s Right to Abortion.”

That must be the one with the right to free healthcare.


8 posted on 10/20/2010 10:18:30 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly (Liberals lie.)
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To: hosepipe
Great post, thanks

As pointed out in the article, it is very troubling that under Dean Kagan, Harvard law students were not required to study constitutional law — but did require the study of foreign law.

9 posted on 10/20/2010 10:20:30 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: skeeter

“Why doesn’t the damn GOP come out and back her up?

They must KNOW she’s correct - why let the media buffoons have the floor?”

Rush is talking about it now.


10 posted on 10/20/2010 10:25:45 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly (Liberals lie.)
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To: doesnt suffer fools gladly

Maybe to make it a story. If Christine would’ve just said what the truth was, it wouldn’t have been a news story. That’s just a theory. She could’ve done better in the nat’l review interview where she brought the free exercise clause into it.

Anyway, for background - here’s the threads on Everson and Elk Grove I posted yesterday so that people could get an informed understanding of what’s actually going on with establishment clause issues.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2610824/posts - everson

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2610810/posts - elk grove


11 posted on 10/20/2010 10:31:40 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: doesnt suffer fools gladly

I know that Ron and Rand Paul agree with her and have a very good understanding of these matters.


12 posted on 10/20/2010 10:33:24 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: TruthShallSetYouFree

it’s all in the magic penumbra.


13 posted on 10/20/2010 10:34:40 AM PDT by WOBBLY BOB ( "I don't want the majority if we don't stand for something"- Jim Demint)
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To: TruthShallSetYouFree

How the Supreme Court is Destroying America.


14 posted on 10/20/2010 10:38:25 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: massgopguy

He also wrote the majority opinion in the case involving the removal of school prayer in 1963...Engel v. Vitale.

This is not a can of worms that the media wants open.

Sometime, check out his first wife’s sister and her husband. It gets rich....real rich.


15 posted on 10/20/2010 10:41:57 AM PDT by del4hope (Where is the Inalienable Rights Division within the DOJ?)
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To: skeeter

Because moderates are afraid of theocracy. Republicans don’t want to go on record talking about how the Constitution actually does not prevent Delaware from becoming officially Catholic. It doesn’t. The 1A establishment clause is in there to allow Delaware to be officially Catholic. Politicians should know this. But they know that voters don’t want to worry about Christine O’Donnell turning Delaware into an officially Catholic state. Something about extreme or something. Also something about “getting off message”. Stopping Obama from doing more terrible things. Taxes. Jobs. These are the things that the Republican candidates want to be talking about because these are the things they think are going to get them votes.

Republicans don’t really want to run under the banner of “we can institute a theocracy state by state if we overturn the Everson line of cases, but we won’t”.

Almost no one on either side of this debate seems to have any clue at all. I’m 100% for Christine for the win - donated to her again yesterday - and she did get it right in the debate - but her answers to nat’l review about free exercise after the debate were wrong. That’s ok, she didn’t go to Yale Law, but the idea that schools can teach creationism because of the free exercise clause is wrong.


16 posted on 10/20/2010 10:42:46 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: WOBBLY BOB

Aren’t there emanations from the penumbra?


17 posted on 10/20/2010 10:44:15 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: opentalk
Elena Kagan, did not require the study of constitutional law when she was dean of Harvard Law School — but did require the study of foreign law

'splains a lot.

18 posted on 10/20/2010 10:45:47 AM PDT by workerbee (FAIL, BABY, FAIL!)
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To: TruthShallSetYouFree

“Separation of Church and State” is in the same (liberal) Constitution wherein you can find “A Woman’s Right to Abortion.” or in the liberal Constitution that a Gay person has the right to be openly Gay in the military.


19 posted on 10/20/2010 10:48:56 AM PDT by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: truthfreedom

I’m not proud to admit that I didn’t know that it wasn’t in the Declaration until four or five years ago. Brit Hume had a special on FOX about the loss of liberty in our country, and he spent a few minutes on that.


20 posted on 10/20/2010 10:49:49 AM PDT by doesnt suffer fools gladly (Liberals lie.)
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To: truthfreedom
“but the idea that schools can teach creationism because of the free exercise clause is wrong.”

Amid all the argument over semantics and what is and is not an appropriate short hand for the rights guaranteed under the 1st Amendment (both Madison and Jefferson seemed to think that the 1st was necessary as a “wall” (Jefferson) or as “perfect separation” (Madison) between Church and State) - is lost that VERY salient point.

21 posted on 10/20/2010 10:50:08 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: skeeter

O’donnell did a terrible job of trying to make her point. Her point is well taken, that judges have interpreted the constitution in a way which gives us legal precedent about this “separation”. She said it terribly but I know what she was trying to say. The liberals are making lots of fun of her because of it.


22 posted on 10/20/2010 10:50:08 AM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: hosepipe
When Kagan was Dean of Harvard Law School, she accepted millions of Saudi dollars for an Islamic Studies Program.

Could this mean a Sharia Law studies program? Yet Constitutional law was not a priority.

23 posted on 10/20/2010 10:53:04 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: opentalk
CO'D was a bit over her head trying to debate this. She ended up looking like she never read the first amendment before: 'CO'D gets in trouble talking First Amendment' link ref #23. She needs to avoid this subject.

I like Phyllis Schlafly’s book The Supremacists better than Levin's ‘Men in Black’. Bought them both. Levin gets himself in a corner on the chapter about filibustering judges. It is like he thought a Democrat could never win.

24 posted on 10/20/2010 10:59:06 AM PDT by sickoflibs ("It's not the taxes, the redistribution is the federal spending=tax delayed")
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To: allmendream

well, schools can teach creationism because of the establishment clause.

Orginally, as written, schools can teach creationism or have school prayer, or whatever, because the establishment clause protects the state and the localities from Federals telling them what to do. “creationism” is “an establishment of religion.

Congress shall pass no law respecting creationism
Congress shall pass no law respecting school prayer.

States can have these things, and did without anybody caring at all until 1947, when the SCt decided to clearly negate the clear meaning of the 1A.

Christine, after the debate yesterday, decided to explain what she was doing during the debate as an attempt to get Coons to talk about the free exercise clause. Unfortunately, the free exercise clause isn’t really relevant here.

Very very few people on either side of this debate have any real clue. Honestly, I think I have as good an understanding of anybody, and I am not confident at all in my mastery of this.

I recommend everyone take a look at Elk Grove - the Thomas concurrence.

But it’s also fun to just type whatever based on what little information. It can be fun to read post after post and article after article by people who really have no idea whatsoever about what they’re talking about.


25 posted on 10/20/2010 11:07:54 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: sickoflibs
She is sharper than the media spin. She has stood up to GOP elitists and would help in stopping progressive agenda and possibly Lame Duck damage.

If she wins it is a slap to elitist inside GOP group. They would have to concede the Tea Party power. There are many forces working against her.

If DE is against Obamacare and new taxes, this is their only option.

26 posted on 10/20/2010 11:08:47 AM PDT by opentalk
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To: truthfreedom
There has to be an end to the liberals intentionally misinterpreting the Constitution. They are DESTROYING the country in this manner.

It can't be too much to expect the GOP to at least try to stop them by correcting their misinterpretations.

27 posted on 10/20/2010 11:09:56 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: opentalk

“Protestants and Other Americans United for Separation of Church and State”

the foundation of “Americans United for Separation of Church and State”

Bigotry by any other name is still bigotry.

never once in the media reports about that woman destroying an “art print” of a painting of Jesus engaged in a sex orgy did I read about how it was a taxpayer funded work and how the government had NO business funding religious (pro OR CON) artworks.


28 posted on 10/20/2010 11:10:08 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: American Constitutionalist; Revolting cat!
“Separation of Church and State” is in the same (liberal) Constitution wherein you can find “A Woman’s Right to Abortion.” or in the liberal Constitution that a Gay person has the right to be openly Gay in the military.

Just wait until the Onanists declare they want to march in an Onanist Pride Parade funded by the city, and set aside quotas for Onanists who don't engage in sexual relations with anyone else.

Will employers be required to provided Onanists with separate restroom facilities?

People who define themselves by their sex acts are an odd sort.

29 posted on 10/20/2010 11:13:32 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: truthfreedom
Congress shall also make no law abridging our freedom of speech.

According to your view of the Constitution, would it be acceptable for a State to pass a law abridging a citizen's freedom of speech?

Are the right guaranteed to us under the Constitution derived from the Natural Rights of man, or from Government? If they derive from the Natural Rights of man, then none but a tyrannous government could abridge those rights. Our Constitution was NOT set up so that we would live under State tyranny, but so that we would live in freedom.

Our rights mean little if they are only guarded at the Federal level.

But I agree with you that teaching Creationism in public schools would be “an establishment of religion”, giving preference and the government seal of approval to one set of religious doctrine over others.

30 posted on 10/20/2010 11:13:32 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: sickoflibs

Christine was right in the debate. She might’ve accidentally stumbled into it, but she was right. And Coons was wrong. Unfortunately Christine went on to explain herself to national review a few minutes or hours after the debate. Don’t read that article if you want to think that Christine does in fact have a clear understanding of the issues. Or maybe the national review writer had no understanding of what Christine was trying to say.

But, Christine was right, and Coons was wrong.

“that’s in the Constitution?”
You’re right Christine, it isn’t. Not even close. The written Constitution says Congress, because the 1A was designed to protect States from the Federal Government. Today, we think that the 1A does prohibit states from enacting the very same things the 1A was originally designed to protect. Everson was in error.


31 posted on 10/20/2010 11:14:29 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: doesnt suffer fools gladly

She was being too clever by half,
and should not have assumed that everyone in the room,
or in the media,

would understand what she was getting at.
She should have spelled it out, explicitly.

But the IBD quote is right - the law students spend all their time in [liberal] case law instead of looking at the text and the writings of the time of ratification.


32 posted on 10/20/2010 11:15:20 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a (de)humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: allmendream

How about the secular humanist view that the world was created by a random event termed the Big Bang and that even if some sort of god did exist, he had absolutely no role in the event or subsequence turn of random events.

Everyone has a “creation” story. They differ in the details.

Scientologists believe that aliens populated the planet and bestowed on humans “imperfect” traits. There are some scientists who dress it up and say that life here came from Mars.


33 posted on 10/20/2010 11:16:22 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: a fool in paradise

I heard someone put it well:

“Homosexuality does not define a group, it defines an ACT.”


34 posted on 10/20/2010 11:20:09 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a (de)humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: allmendream

All you have to do is go back to the time of the founding.
There were official religions of various states,
and no one even mentioned these as violating the first amendment.

The states wouldn’t have ratified it if that is what it meant.


35 posted on 10/20/2010 11:21:40 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a (de)humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: allmendream

See Elk Grove.

Freedom of Speech is an individual right.

The establishment clause isn’t. It’s a right that was given to the states. Not to the people.

The Free Exercise clause is the individual right part.

Please, people, stop with the Natural Rights, Natural Law stuff. You get it, but the lawyers, myself included, have no real idea what you’re talking about.

It’s as if you want to understand the law, but find all the little complications too much, and decide to pretend that this Natural Law and Rights stuff is somehow relevant to the law today.

No one seems to touch at all on the the actual law. As it exists now, as it existed in 1947. None of that.

I’m saying that the 1st Amendment allows the teaching of Creationism. I’m not putting some Lemon test out there for that. I’m not concluding that creationism is impermissible.
I’m saying that Everson was wrong.

See Thomas in Elk Grove. Here’s the handy link to the Elk Grove thread I set up yesterday.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2610810/posts - elk grove

Serious conservatives should study Clarence Thomas here. Establishment clause jurisprudence is a mess.

Quite simply, the Establishment Clause is best understood as a federalism provision–it protects state establishments from federal interference but does not protect any individual right.

That’s what Clarence Thomas said. He actually gets to vote on what the Constitution says. What he said is not, technically “law”, because it’s a concurrence, but we want Justices who agree with him, so that he can write a majority opinion on the establishment clause, and overturn Everson.


36 posted on 10/20/2010 11:25:29 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: a fool in paradise
The “Big Bang” is based upon actual evidence. Creationism is based upon the interpretation of revealed wisdom.

Teaching that the evidence suggest the universe is expanding from an initial point of creation is compatible with the evidence and is science.

Teaching that the Earth is only a few thousand years old and that all species were created nearly simultaneously is a religious belief without evidence and is not science.

Do you think that Mormons teaching the “history” of Semitic people in the Americas in Utah public schools would be acceptable under the 1st Amendment?

37 posted on 10/20/2010 11:28:07 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: allmendream

“See there you go again...” < /reagan >

YOU are the one setting the argument as “creationism” being only a few thousand years old for all religious believers.

EVERYONE Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, Atheist, Scientologist, Buddhist has a creation belief. THAT is “creationism”.

if you want to use it as a pejorative and say that “creationism is a belief that a god or many gods created everything” that still does NOT give you the right to insist that everyone start that clock at 6,000 years.

That is the fallacy of this debate. Because “some religious believers” say “6,000 years” EVERYONE who believes in a God and believe that their God created the universe and life MUST believe THAT view of “creationist story” is a false argument.

There are some who see a “clockmaker view” of the universe, that the observed scientific principles had been put into motion by the creator.

To say ABSOLUTELY that there was no creator is a religious litimus test that makes ATHEISM the state religion. And that is outright academic bias.

We may “agree to disagree” as a nation but we cannot demand that everyone “forgo their religious beliefs to submit to the secular humanist atheists’ view”. That is what the muslim theocracy also demands. You may hold a different opinion as long as you never tell anyone that opinion.

Thus “freedom of speech” and “freedom of religion” become meaningless.


38 posted on 10/20/2010 11:38:40 AM PDT by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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To: truthfreedom
RE :”But, Christine was right, and Coons was wrong.

MSNBC has been playing the clip which I documented here :'CO'D gets in trouble talking First Amendment' link ref #23 over and over.

The problem is she responding to the statement “..the government shall make no establishment of religion” with the question “..that is in the first amendment? “ . She may not have meant that sequence of wording but it made her look like she got in over her head.

I notice that both MSNBC and FNC tend to play clips that make the other party (sides) look bad. I watch them side by side sometimes and it looks like two different debates.

Just because a Republican takes a position we agree with doesnt mean that they are not doing damage to the argument by trying to explain stuff that they are not prepared to. A great example is Elizabeth on The View. It is torture to watch her.

39 posted on 10/20/2010 11:41:59 AM PDT by sickoflibs ("It's not the taxes, the redistribution is the federal spending=tax delayed")
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To: sickoflibs

That is NOT. I repeat NOT. in the 1A.

NOT IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT.

Christine was RIGHT.

It says Congress, not Government.


40 posted on 10/20/2010 11:45:01 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: allmendream
The “Big Bang” is based upon actual evidence.

No it's not.
It's an interpetration of the apparent evidence.
Not as clear cut as saying the sun rose this morning, and we all saw it. That is a fact. But not science.

The big bang theory is relatively recent, and controversy and contradictions and revisions have been a constant companion to its "development." Contradictions and unexplained phenomena abound.

41 posted on 10/20/2010 11:48:25 AM PDT by Publius6961 ("In 1964 the War on Poverty Began --- Poverty won.")
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To: skeeter

Now is not the time for that. 2 weeks before the election. Nope, “we think it’s ok to have theocracy as the framers intended in the states but not at the federal level” is not “on message”.

But we know that Christine will try to figure all this stuff out, and will push for more Creationism in schools and School Prayer and all that stuff we want. But after the elections.

Now is a time to talk about Taxes, and Obamacare and Cap and Trade and all the bad Obama stuff. Add Coons poisons people to that and to the reward cronies stuff, or whatever they want to talk about that will bring the targets of the message to Christine.


42 posted on 10/20/2010 11:49:55 AM PDT by truthfreedom
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To: a fool in paradise
Muslim theocracies demand that Creationism be taught in their schools.

Whatever the timeline, the impetus of the belief in the near simultaneous “special” creation of all species is a RELIGIOUS belief, not a scientific one based upon evidence.

Nothing in science precludes God. Many Christians embraced the scientific data that points to a “Big Bang” because it so closely comports with the theology that there WAS a beginning to the universe (many previously thought the universe might not have a beginning).

So would teaching the Book of Mormon as actual history be acceptable in Utah public schools under your view of the 1st Amendment? Or would that be an establishment and/or endorsement of a religion?

43 posted on 10/20/2010 11:50:33 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: allmendream
So would teaching the Book of Mormon as actual history be acceptable in Utah public schools under your view of the 1st Amendment? Or would that be an establishment and/or endorsement of a religion?

Hypotheticals are the weapons of the intellectually unarmed.
Bernie Ward comes to mind.

Only another fool steps into a "hypothetical" trap.

44 posted on 10/20/2010 11:57:36 AM PDT by Publius6961 ("In 1964 the War on Poverty Began --- Poverty won.")
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To: truthfreedom
So the free exercise of religion is an individual right, but the prohibition on the establishment of religion is a right given to the States?

The STATES have rights now? The STATE has the right for Congress to not pass law respecting the establishment of religion?

To not understand Natural Law is to not understand the philosophical foundation of our Nation.

“This idea? that government was beholden to the people, that it had no other source of power is still the newest, most unique idea in all the long history of man's relation to man. This is the issue of this election: Whether we believe in our capacity for self-government or whether we abandon the American Revolution and confess that a little intellectual elite in a far-distant capital can plan our lives for us better than we can plan them ourselves.
You and I are told we must choose between a left or right, but I suggest there is no such thing as a left or right. There is only an up or down. Up to man's age-old dream-the maximum of individual freedom consistent with order or down to the ant heap of totalitarianism.” Ronald Reagan

45 posted on 10/20/2010 11:58:36 AM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: truthfreedom
RE :”NOT IN THE FIRST AMENDMENT. Christine was RIGHT. It says Congress, not Government

If CO'D had made that clarification and explained the difference in meaning between the two she would have looked good. But instead she asked “That's in the First amendment?” as a question, as if she didn't have a clue.

Congress vs ‘the government’ is the the same in so many minds, and term ‘the government’ to complain about congress is used over and over by Republicans, so she is easily crucified for responding in this way to such a fine difference in common use of words.

Arguing against decades old judicial precedents in debates is not for amateurs. Scalia would have most (all) people for lunch, I have seen him in debates.

46 posted on 10/20/2010 11:59:28 AM PDT by sickoflibs ("It's not the taxes, the redistribution is the federal spending=tax delayed")
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To: Publius6961
A trap! Hardly. It is called the “law of unintended consequences” and it is hardly a trap.

Your inability to give an answer shows that it is you who are intellectually unarmed and afraid to give battle on the field of ideas.

47 posted on 10/20/2010 12:00:00 PM PDT by allmendream (Income is EARNED not distributed. So how could it be re-distributed?)
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To: truthfreedom
We already tried it your way.

The democrats have successfully made what should have long ago been a national referendum on liberalism into a mass of individual races, election after election, and then proceed to destroy our candidates with such misdirection in detail. Frightened republicans NEVER challenge them out of fear of the liberal media.

Still we continue to lose more often than not.

Well, NOW is the time to start challenging them and show them for the sophists and liars they are. Telling the truth is never a bad policy.

48 posted on 10/20/2010 12:04:22 PM PDT by skeeter
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To: truthfreedom
The establishment clause isn’t. It’s a right that was given to the states. Not to the people.

You don't know what you're talking about. States are nowhere said in the law to posses "rights". States only have "Powers", and only persons have rights.

Cordially,

49 posted on 10/20/2010 12:05:29 PM PDT by Diamond (He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people,)
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To: allmendream
Nothing in science precludes God. Many Christians embraced the scientific data that points to a “Big Bang” because it so closely comports with the theology that there WAS a beginning to the universe (many previously thought the universe might not have a beginning).

Did God spring forth from the Big Bang or was the Big Bang an Act of God? Or was God surprised by the whole Big Bang thing? Or does God just not exist? Those are the 4 "Big Bang stories of creation" to consider.

Which ONE of the Four Big Bang stories is the one taught in schools?

Believing that God caused the Big Bang even with a timeline of millions of years is still a "creationist" worldview. Anyone who believes in God as creator is a creationist. But even those who beleive in the no god god of Atheism still believe a creation story of how everything came to be.

Saying "science proves my religion of atheism" is still pushing a religion on pupils.

The schools are already doing with when they say "homosexuality is not sinful or immoral". That is contrary to other religious views.

When they use "Gaia" as a concept to promote the Global Climate Change bunk, that is pushing a religion on the students as fact.

50 posted on 10/20/2010 12:06:52 PM PDT by a fool in paradise (The establishment clause isn't just against my OWN government establishing state religion in America)
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