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Bank Of America Getting Crushed In Trading That's Scarily Reminiscent Of Pre-Crisis Days
The Business Insider ^ | 10-25-2010 | Joe Weisenthal

Posted on 10/25/2010 10:23:38 AM PDT by blam

Bank Of America Getting Crushed In Trading That's Scarily Reminiscent Of Pre-Crisis Days

Joe Weisenthal
Oct. 25, 2010, 12:39 PM

And there goes Bank of America again.

Both it and JPMorgan are getting crushed right now, as concern about foreclosures and mortgage putbacks continue to weigh on the megabanks.

There's something about Bank of America's action that's particularly nausea-inducing. It's the relentless selling -- all headlines not withstanding -- that suggest the market knows something or thinks something that nobody can voice about how bad this will get.

Some comments from Sheila Bair -- via ZeroHedge -- about how the mortgage mess will be costly, are clearly not helping.

Click here to see Manal Mehta's guide to Bank of America's mortgage exposure >

[snip]

(Excerpt) Read more at businessinsider.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bofa; chase; crisis; stocks

1 posted on 10/25/2010 10:23:41 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam

A clueless question from me .. what will happen to people who had countrywide mortgages way back when which now have Bank of America Mortgages?


2 posted on 10/25/2010 10:25:21 AM PDT by Tuscaloosa Goldfinch ( T.G., global warming denier.)
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To: blam

There appear to be only a couple of ways out of their current mortgage conundrum, neither of which is too appealing.

Either the mortgages remain in limbo and millions of people continue to live for free in houses without clear title, perhaps leading these banks to cut deals with them on a future mortgage at a fraction of the price of the original, or the Government passes a law saying it is OK to use phony forged paperwork, which will likely touch off CW II.


3 posted on 10/25/2010 10:26:48 AM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
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To: blam
From ZeroHedge:

BofA Takes Out Lows As Sheila Bair Says Servicers' Issues Could Be "Very Damaging", "More Problems" To Aruse In Mortgage Servicing

4 posted on 10/25/2010 10:28:18 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam

Holy shiite!! From 12.40 to 11.20 in 5 days! It’s getting crushed! /s


5 posted on 10/25/2010 10:29:59 AM PDT by petercooper (Imam Obama)
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To: Tuscaloosa Goldfinch

Great question, as I’m one of those.

Oh, and BOA sucks. When I was mortgage shopping I avoided them like herpes, and then voila - they hold my mortgage.


6 posted on 10/25/2010 10:30:17 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Support and vote for Sean Bielat (MA-4)! MA-4 is Barney Frank's district.)
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To: blam

Well lol who could have seen that coming what with all the class action suits being filed now and even the NY Fed wanting some of the mortgages bought back and investor’s looming at the door sarc.


7 posted on 10/25/2010 10:31:30 AM PDT by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: blam
Bank Of America Getting Crushed
11.21 -0.23‎ (-2.01%‎)
Down 2% (and rising) is being crushed?

8 posted on 10/25/2010 10:31:43 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: Buckeye McFrog
or the Government passes a law saying it is OK to use phony forged paperwork, which will likely touch off CW II

(rolls eyes) What is it with folks thinking that something like this is going to start a Civil War? I mean, sure, it sounds dreadful and exciting, but come on....

9 posted on 10/25/2010 10:32:17 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: oh8eleven
Down 2% (and rising) is being crushed?

There you go ... reading the scales on the plots. You know a good alarmist would never stoop so low as that.

10 posted on 10/25/2010 10:33:33 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: GOPsterinMA
“Oh, and BOA sucks. When I was mortgage shopping I avoided them like herpes, and then voila - they hold my mortgage.”

I have the numbers of all mortgage lenders in our metro area; and was shocked to see how low their market share had dropped to.

11 posted on 10/25/2010 10:42:14 AM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (You know it's bad for them when Obama's #1 enemy is the Chamber of Commerce)
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To: r9etb
He must have meant JP Morgan ... it's down 1.09%‎.
Crushed indeed.

12 posted on 10/25/2010 10:42:32 AM PDT by oh8eleven (RVN '67-'68)
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To: HereInTheHeartland

Really? Who’s picking up the slack? Local, smaller banks and credit unions?


13 posted on 10/25/2010 10:45:01 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Support and vote for Sean Bielat (MA-4)! MA-4 is Barney Frank's district.)
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To: blam
http://stockcharts.com/h-sc/ui?s=BAC&p=W&yr=3&mn=0&dy=0&id=p75158997621

$10 very minor support...may go to sub $5 once again.........................................

14 posted on 10/25/2010 10:45:26 AM PDT by Osage Orange (MOLON LABE)
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To: blam

BofA: The Illegal Aliens Bank
I wouldn’t buy stock in this criminal enterprise for a nickle a share.


15 posted on 10/25/2010 10:46:05 AM PDT by kittymyrib
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To: blam

Unintended consequence still coming..title insurers are in big trouble..many will fold..owning one used to be viewed as a license to print money...and many will stop writing until this mess is straightened out..which will kill any RE recovery..


16 posted on 10/25/2010 10:46:18 AM PDT by ken5050 (I don't need sex.....the government screws me every day..)
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To: GOPsterinMA
and then voila - they hold my mortgage.

Well, they say they do.

17 posted on 10/25/2010 10:48:27 AM PDT by agere_contra (...what if we won't eat the dog food?)
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To: agere_contra

Exactly - you took the words right off my keyboard!


18 posted on 10/25/2010 10:50:00 AM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Support and vote for Sean Bielat (MA-4)! MA-4 is Barney Frank's district.)
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To: Tuscaloosa Goldfinch

” what will happen to people who had countrywide mortgages way back when which now have Bank of America Mortgages?”

The forclose on them just like any other, I bought one 3 months ago.


19 posted on 10/25/2010 10:54:17 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: r9etb

“What is it with folks thinking that something like this is going to start a Civil War? I mean, sure, it sounds dreadful and exciting, but come on....”

Standard exaggeration.


20 posted on 10/25/2010 11:02:23 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Buckeye McFrog

“or the Government passes a law saying it is OK to use phony forged paperwork, which will likely touch off CW II.”

The govt had better pass a law saying exactly that or we have not only a war but we’ll be fighting with bows and arrows. I’m not interesting in folks staying in houses they aren’t paying for due to a technicality with their paperwork. This is so much bs and yet it can bring down the economy to aide freeloaders.


21 posted on 10/25/2010 11:31:35 AM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: blam
Let's see.

Homeowners going after BoA for clouded title issues and forged paperwork ... Check

MBS owners going after BoA for refunds over unperfected securities sales ... Check

State governments (like Califonia) coming after BoA for using MERS and bypassing 60-120 billion in property registration fees ... Check

Yeah this stock is a BUY /Goldman Sachs advice.

22 posted on 10/25/2010 11:43:01 AM PDT by Centurion2000 (WTH happened to my country?? I joined the Marines and defended the USA and it degenerates into this?)
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To: r9etb
What is it with folks thinking that something like this is going to start a Civil War?

Because it would mean that literally any entity could gin up some phony paperwork, walk into a Court, swear it was genuine without any fear of legal consequences, and foreclose on any home in the Country.

All of which, by the way, was in that Bill which Obama 'pocket vetod' a couple of weeks back.

23 posted on 10/25/2010 11:47:35 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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Comment #24 Removed by Moderator

To: Lurker
Because it would mean that literally any entity could gin up some phony paperwork, walk into a Court, swear it was genuine without any fear of legal consequences, and foreclose on any home in the Country.

And a civil war would result from that ... how?

Let's agree that such a thing would be bad ... albeit highly unlikely as a "normal" event such as what you're describing.

But for it to occur in sufficient volume to incite any sort of organized violent response, would require a number of cases that would far outstrip the capacity of the court system to handle them.

Beyond that, the political fallout from that sort of fly-by-night foreclosure operation would -- as we've already seen -- result in swift political reaction, most likely in the form of a moratorium on foreclosures. Which would also be bad, of course.

In real life, I'm fairly certain we're riding for a nasty financial fall, the consequences of which will be highly unpleasant. I doubt we'll see a civil war springing out of it, though.

25 posted on 10/25/2010 12:00:27 PM PDT by r9etb
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To: GOPsterinMA
Wells Fargo is headquartered here. They are the biggest by quite a bit.
They didn’t used to have the market share lead over BofA however that they currently have.
All the new regulations have made it harder for the smaller lenders on the other side of things.
26 posted on 10/25/2010 12:01:48 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (You know it's bad for them when Obama's #1 enemy is the Chamber of Commerce)
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To: GOPsterinMA
Wells Fargo is headquartered here. They are the biggest by quite a bit.
They didn’t used to have the market share lead over BofA however that they currently have.
All the new regulations have made it harder for the smaller lenders on the other side of things.
27 posted on 10/25/2010 12:01:55 PM PDT by HereInTheHeartland (You know it's bad for them when Obama's #1 enemy is the Chamber of Commerce)
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To: Lurker

“Because it would mean that literally any entity could gin up some phony paperwork, walk into a Court, swear it was genuine without any fear of legal consequences, and foreclose on any home in the Country.”

You really think this was a deliberate action as opposed to a small snafu? These folks need to be evicted and within weeks and months of defaulting as opposed to staying in these homes for years due a paperwork technicality. This is smoke and a technical error allowing free loaders to put a dent in our economy. The alternative is we the tax payer bails out these former homeowners and buy their worthless paper, modifying their debt to next to nothing (in essence buying them a home) and we foot the bill. This has the potential to the biggest weath transfer in history so just watch who supports this going forward.


28 posted on 10/25/2010 12:08:45 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: Lurker

“Because it would mean that literally any entity could gin up some phony paperwork, walk into a Court, swear it was genuine without any fear of legal consequences, and foreclose on any home in the Country.”

You really think this was a deliberate action as opposed to a small snafu? These folks need to be evicted and within weeks and months of defaulting as opposed to staying in these homes for years due a paperwork technicality. This is smoke and a technical error allowing free loaders to put a dent in our economy. The alternative is we the tax payer bails out these former homeowners and buy their worthless paper, modifying their debt to next to nothing (in essence buying them a home) and we foot the bill. This has the potential to the biggest weath transfer in history so just watch who supports this going forward.


29 posted on 10/25/2010 12:08:58 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: r9etb
In real life, I'm fairly certain we're riding for a nasty financial fall, the consequences of which will be highly unpleasant.

I think 'unpleasant' will be putting it mildly. I'm anticipating a nice, rosy glow from the south and west sides of Chicago when all those WIC debit cards finally stop working.

"War" is probably too strong a term for it. Perhaps "sustained civil unrest" would be better.

L

30 posted on 10/25/2010 12:15:58 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Bogeygolfer
You really think this was a deliberate action as opposed to a small snafu?

Yes, I do. And it's hardly 'small'. There are tens of thousands of mortgages out there where which can't be documented legally. Frauds were perpetrated on Courts and Perjury was committed on wholesale basis.

You may think that's 'small', but I assure you it is not.

And it was all done quite deliberately.

L

31 posted on 10/25/2010 12:22:45 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: Lurker

small scale or large scale is an interesting side note. I fear it is on a large scale but the errors themselves are small scall technical issues. Folks are being foreclosed on because the occupants aren’t able to meet their obligations. Now they can show an error in the paperwork process that is threatening to bring down the system. The errors are NOT saying anything about the actual ownership of the residence in substance. It’s a paperwork short cut that should never have been made but I’m not seeing fraud in any way so much as the courts once again going PC vs common sense. We need to be able to foreclose in an efficient manner to allow for any type of recovery in the housing market. As a taxpayer I am unwilling to allow delinquent homeowners to squat on my dime. This is so much ado about nothing and yet our courts and media will build it up and the end result is a large scale wealth transfer.


32 posted on 10/25/2010 1:01:10 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: Bogeygolfer
The errors are NOT saying anything about the actual ownership of the residence in substance.

Oh but they are. The folks doing the foreclosing can't actually prove in many cases that they're actuall, legally owed the money. They can't produce either the Title Deed or the Promissory note.

To paraphrase our knuckle head Vice President, that's a big f****** deal.

It’s a paperwork short cut that should never have been made but I’m not seeing fraud...

Dude, swearing to a document one knows to be false is a Fraud upon the Court and it's a crime. You can look that up.

We need to be able to foreclose in an efficient manner to allow for any type of recovery in the housing market.

And just screw a hundred years of well settled Law in the process. Is that what you're recommending? You want to let these Wall Street thieves to get away with it?

As a taxpayer I am unwilling to allow delinquent homeowners to squat on my dime.

Too late for that I'm afraid. We're all about to take a royal screwing for this. Before it's over I have a feeling folks are going to be hunting Dems with dogs over this.

33 posted on 10/25/2010 1:53:31 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: HereInTheHeartland

Gotcha! Thank you for the info.


34 posted on 10/25/2010 2:32:23 PM PDT by GOPsterinMA (Support and vote for Sean Bielat (MA-4)! MA-4 is Barney Frank's district.)
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To: Lurker

“Oh but they are. The folks doing the foreclosing can’t actually prove in many cases that they’re actuall, legally owed the money. They can’t produce either the Title Deed or the Promissory note.”

They can’t prove it in court due to clerical errors. We do know in reality using common sense. I agree it’s a big deal. Perhaps the biggest deal going right now. I just don’t think it should be and if there was ever a time where ignoring 100 years of settled law actually resulted in justice, this would be it. As for hunting Dems with dogs, you my friend are being overly optimistic (not the right choice of word there), this will all be laid at Bush’s and conservative’s feet I fear.
Last word from me..this has nothing to do with the ‘Wall Street thieves’ so much as paperwork and process. What is the crime? These homes should be foreclosed on if the occupants can’t sustain their payments. The document systems today in this regard are woefully inadequate and I can see how this got out of hand but it was not a case of them stealing from anybody but themselves. They can’t prove which of the financiers actually holds the Title but we do know it’s not the foreclosed homeowner ‘victim’.


35 posted on 10/25/2010 4:06:59 PM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: Buckeye McFrog
Or they can give all the money they borrowed back and get the title to their house.
If they can't they can pay their loan IMO or be booted out.
36 posted on 10/25/2010 4:10:53 PM PDT by A CA Guy ( God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: Tuscaloosa Goldfinch
We're screwed. We pay our mortgage obligations on time per the contract and when it's satisfied, NOT ONE DAMNED person at Bank of America has the legal authority to release the Note, if indeed they can ever find the thing.

IMO, it's smart to file a RESPA with them to discover exactly what doc's they have. Review EVERY DETAIL. Don't pay another dime until you know for sure - save your money in an escrow and if they produce legit docs you'll have the funds to reinstate. If they can't, you've not continued to pay on a home you may never own.

My question is what legal options are available to us whose clean titles are irreparably damaged? Should those institutions not be held legally and financially responsible?

It's sickening that an institution can be so stupidly negligent and criminally involved. And the fact BofA acquired Countrywide does not beg pity for BofA, every damned one of them had their hands in the screwing of investors to the umpth degree possible and KNEW it. Now they've attempted to turn that screwing onto borrowers because they know they don't have the right doc's to back those faulty REMIC’s and if they could manage to “foreclose” without resist, they thought they'd covered their poop tracks with more dirt and planned they'd gather enough assets to shore up a portion of the inevitable put-back demands. It didn't work - some balked and look what's popping up! It ain't a surprise - it's an unraveling of their sinister, tangled web; a chickens coming home to roost moment; a snared by their own trap experience.

How would you handle a trustee that's screwed the pooch as badly as these have? America would be better off if its name weren't associated with an institution so entangled in questionable behavior. It and the rest need to be put in receivership and allowed to succumb to the market they tried so intently to manipulate for their own profit.

As for another bailout? The bastards took the hefty profits, let them shoulder the hefty losses. The market is a risk, you win some - you lose some. It's their turn to lose from the risks they took.

Yes, I want to see them barbecued - Carolina style..

37 posted on 10/26/2010 6:03:14 AM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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To: azhenfud

I had called the recently to ask about something, and had to keypad my way through a bunch of questions, entering the last 4 digits of my hubby’s SS #, and come to find out after actually speaking to a human, that they have the SS# wrong on our mortgage. So they send me a form to fill out to fix it. The form doesn’t ask for a copy of the SS card. So I send the form in and they they deny the change because I didn’t send a copy of the card.


38 posted on 10/26/2010 6:42:36 AM PDT by Tuscaloosa Goldfinch ( T.G., global warming denier.)
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To: Tuscaloosa Goldfinch

For those who pay on time, nothing. BOA has the ability to process the mortgages and even respond in a timely manner to refinances with other banks.

BOA will have some difficulty sorting out the mess with the bad loans and claims from other banks/institutions demanding repurchase of loans/paper sold with fraudulent claims. It is lawyer paradise


39 posted on 10/26/2010 7:37:01 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Greetings Jacques. The revolution is coming)
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To: Bogeygolfer

You are correct.

The obfuscation is designed to provide legal fees while the mess gets sorted out. A foreclosed homeowner is going to pay out hefty legal fees and then still lose his home and his equity too probably. There is a deed of trust on record and when the note finally shows up in the hands of the bone fide owner, the foreclosures will proceed.


40 posted on 10/26/2010 7:44:36 AM PDT by bert (K.E. N.P. N.C. +12 ..... Greetings Jacques. The revolution is coming)
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To: bert; Tuscaloosa Goldfinch
"For those who pay on time, nothing. BOA has the ability to process the mortgages and even respond in a timely manner to refinances with other banks."

That's balloon stuffing right there. I know how they've "responded" just on simple requests and it's been nightmares from hell every time.

TG's experience with just a SS# correction is exemplified. TG, I'm so sorry you have to deal with them, but even sorrier they're HQ'd in my home state...what a black mark!

Bert, you might better not trivialize BofA's troubles so nonchalantly. Monoline investors are poised to really do some scalping with the rest of the big boys and BofA begged for it. At the potential for their share of the $1.5 trillion monoline securities put-backs at 30%, it could end up costing BofA 1/2 TRILLION dollars. Watch their stock - it's SELL, SELL, SELL. Do heavy investors know something we don't? I'll wager on the side they do.

"We bought the company (Countrywide) and all of its assets and liabilities... We are aware of the claims and potential claims against the company and have factored these into the purchase." - Scott Silvestri, BofA spokesperson, 2/2008

41 posted on 10/26/2010 8:14:06 AM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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To: Bogeygolfer
"You really think this was a deliberate action as opposed to a small snafu? These folks need to be evicted and within weeks and months of defaulting as opposed to staying in these homes for years due a paperwork technicality. This is smoke and a technical error allowing free loaders to put a dent in our economy. The alternative is we the tax payer bails out these former homeowners and buy their worthless paper, modifying their debt to next to nothing (in essence buying them a home) and we foot the bill. This has the potential to the biggest weath transfer in history so just watch who supports this going forward."

You're so concerned about the dented front fender and who's going to pay to fix it you totally miss the fact the entire ass-end of the vehicle is torn off. You'd better check your own mortgage doc's and be damned sure you can get a cleared title when you supposedly satisfy your note obligation. That's the heart of the issue for some. Who actually has "standing" to issue a statement of satisfaction?

Yes, it was a deliberate attempt to conceal the fact mortgages pooled in the MBS didn't meet underwriters' standards so the toxic paper was "conveniently" omitted. In order that the deceit not become "obvious", prime mortgage security instruments were also omitted - it was cast as a "new thing" and investors were assured their purchases were secured. Those who were provided self-destruct mortgages are credited for revealing the bigger picture - banks' fraud, deceit, lying, cheating - all for a profit.

Banksters were aware how MBS's and REMIC's work and knew the limitations - hell, BofA doesn't bribe, er, pay its gang of lawyers to sit on their asses and miss blunders with the potential caustic effects of this magnitude.

42 posted on 10/26/2010 8:38:27 AM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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To: azhenfud

Even if you are right, that does not translate to a question of ownership at the end of the day. We are talking about how to fix that as we speak and granting the foreclosed homeowner rights to squal indefinately will have a considerable negative impact on any quote unquote recovery in the housing market. If you suggest this was deliberate in order to hide subprime crap then I would address that as a separate investment related issue and not pull the title issue into question. I don’t see much to back up your assertion so if you have any references I would appreciate it.


43 posted on 10/26/2010 8:56:10 AM PDT by Bogeygolfer
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To: Bogeygolfer

Have you read this:

http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=168218

Everything in the chain of assignments faltered at the banks’ hands. The real mess only surfaced when a percentage of resets went into default and the banks’ “Oh-OH!” moment happened.

It was then, “Foreclose on ANYTHING that looks suspicious!” to back up the worthless investments sold to defrauded investors.

And yes, the title issue cannot be resolved unless the Note issue is also.

You’re squawking over the “squatters” and assuredly they don’t deserve a “free house”. But at the end of the day, which is more costly? to walk away from a squatter or sink billions for removals and even more trillions in penalties and put-backs to fix the REMICS? At some point, diminishing returns demand cutting losses and getting out. For some, it’ll be the homeowner. For others, the banks.


44 posted on 10/26/2010 9:39:30 AM PDT by azhenfud (The government is not best which secures life and property-there is a more valuable thing-manhood.)
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