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Batteries v. gas - so far, it's no contest
Globe & Mail [Toronto] ^ | 11/27/10 | Richard Gilbert

Posted on 11/27/2010 7:04:00 PM PST by Nachum

Richard Gilbert is a Toronto-based consultant who focuses on energy and transportation. His latest book is Transport Revolutions: Moving People and Freight without Oil, written with Anthony Perl.

My last post suggested that two types of transportation fuel could replace oil products. One kind – including natural gas and biofuels – could be used in versions of the internal combustion engines (ICEs) that today provide propulsion for almost all road vehicles. The other alternative fuel – electricity – would require a switch to electric motors (EMs) for propulsion. I concluded that electricity is the best alternative, especially where there is a surplus of electricity generation or it could be readily expanded.

(Excerpt) Read more at theglobeandmail.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: batteries; contest; efv; electricity; energy; gas; recharging
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1 posted on 11/27/2010 7:04:04 PM PST by Nachum
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To: Nachum

The hybrid vehicle is the only vehicle that gives the best of both worlds:the gas can be used on long distance trips and you can drive it like a regular car and for in town and round-about trips, you would drive it like an electric car, saving on gas.

The Toyota Prius has proven such a vehicle has a market. Its already produced.


2 posted on 11/27/2010 7:09:55 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: Nachum

At an EPA equivalent 99 mpg the electric cars will be more expensive than gas/diesel once the EPA is finished jacking up electricity costs with ever more burdensome regulations. Expect electricity to double in the next five years with this EPA.


3 posted on 11/27/2010 7:10:35 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: Nachum

>> I concluded that electricity is the best alternative, especially where there is a surplus of electricity generation or it could be readily expanded.

Where is this magical place? Do they have unicorns there? Can I walk on rainbows to get there?

Every year the power grid and generation capacity in industrialized nations gets stretched thinner and thinner. Stupid liberal jackwagon! Sheesh!


4 posted on 11/27/2010 7:12:03 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Obama is like a rocket scientist....who's trying to do brain surgery with a hammer.)
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To: goldstategop
The Toyota Prius...

I love it that my 30 year old diesel VW Rabbit pickup gets better highway mileage than the Prius. It did cost me a pretty penny, though - $2500 five years ago.

5 posted on 11/27/2010 7:13:02 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird

The problem with electric cars is the weight and expense of the battery and the absence of fast acceleration. Unless it is solved, their future is rather limited.


6 posted on 11/27/2010 7:13:38 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
At an EPA equivalent 99 mpg the electric cars

And the basis for that 99 MPG figure is...

...complete fiction, no?

7 posted on 11/27/2010 7:14:09 PM PST by sionnsar (IranAzadi|5yst3m 0wn3d-it's N0t Y0ur5:SONY|Why are TSA exempt from their own searches?)
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird

And don’t forget to add in the cost of disposing of old batteries. I am sure the “re-cycling fees” will be substantial.


8 posted on 11/27/2010 7:15:27 PM PST by csmusaret (Q: How do they say incompetent failure in Kenya? A: Barack Obama)
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To: Nachum

i hope i’m dead bfore i have to drive an electric or hybred car!


9 posted on 11/27/2010 7:18:00 PM PST by dalereed
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To: goldstategop
on long distance trips and you can drive it like a regular car

Driving from Salt Lake City to LasVegas, after a hundred miles or so, eighteen wheelers pass Prius going up hills.

The Prius goes up the hills about 35 MPH.

I guess a regular car can go that slow if you have the patience.

10 posted on 11/27/2010 7:19:07 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: goldstategop
If you're talking the old lead-acid batteries, I agree 100%.

But with today's lithium-ion batteries and soon ultracapacitor batteries, battery packs can be VASTLY smaller (e.g., less interference with interior space of the car) without sacrificing range. The use of Li-On battery packs is what makes the Nissan Leaf possible. And the EPA has worked out methods to recycle these new battery types safely, too.

11 posted on 11/27/2010 7:19:37 PM PST by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: Bryanw92
Where is this magical place? Do they have unicorns there? Can I walk on rainbows to get there?

I have to laugh that the first folks to embrace this sort of thing live in CA. The land of rolling blackouts.

12 posted on 11/27/2010 7:20:57 PM PST by mylife (Opinions ~ $1 Half Baked ~ 50c)
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To: Dan(9698)

Don’t worry...the DOT will soon have a national speed limit of 40 mph. Any faster than that and you’ll get pulled over.


13 posted on 11/27/2010 7:21:35 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Joe 6-pack

The cops won’t write tickets anymore. It will be impossible to exceed the speed limit.


14 posted on 11/27/2010 7:24:30 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives In My Heart Forever)
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To: sionnsar
And the basis for that 99 MPG figure is...

The EPA. And it's at least as reliable as their Global Warming® proclamations.

nissan leaf epa mpg label

15 posted on 11/27/2010 7:28:54 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
The below is for the Nissan Leaf. It is based on $0.12/KW/Hr. Electricity will be double that if Obama gets his wish. That will make the cost to drive an electric vehicle that needs charged for seven hours, once per each hour of driving, roughly the same as driving a VW Jetta diesel - that needs filled once per 500 miles - refueling taking about 10 minutes.

nissan leaf epa mpg label

16 posted on 11/27/2010 7:36:56 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: Nachum

Hybrids and electric vehicles may well be well suited for city driving.I’ve read that that’s true and have no way to refute such suggestions.But 90% of my driving is highway driving and my diesel *loves* the highway.It gets 42mpg on the highway,has 425 ft lbs of torque (which can pin you back in your seat) and has all the latest gadgets and creature comforts.It’ll be a cold day in hell before I own a hybrid or electric.It’s diesel for me from now on.


17 posted on 11/27/2010 7:39:27 PM PST by Gay State Conservative (''I don't regret setting bombs,I feel we didn't do enough.'' ->Bill Ayers,Hussein's mentor,9/11/01)
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To: RayChuang88

“without sacrificing range”

Range? What is this range of which you speak? They have no range to begin with


18 posted on 11/27/2010 7:40:14 PM PST by Figment ("A communist is someone who reads Marx.An anti-communist is someone who understands Marx" R Reagan)
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To: Nachum

All electric vehicles will never be a viable option for the masses, even if electricity were free. I can buy an economical vehicle that will haul 5 adults uphill and downhill in 100+ degree heat with the air conditioner running for as many miles as the fuel tank will allow and refuel in munutes.


19 posted on 11/27/2010 7:40:23 PM PST by umgud
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To: RayChuang88

I thought those batteries didn’t need recycling, they ignited and cremated themselves on their own.


20 posted on 11/27/2010 7:42:16 PM PST by battlecry
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To: battlecry

Yes, just when will a battery replacement be needed, and what will it cost when that time comes.

I have heard 4-5 years and $7000. There won’t be any govt subsidy for those dollars.


21 posted on 11/27/2010 7:47:05 PM PST by Owen
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To: dalereed
i hope i’m dead bfore i have to drive an electric or hybred car!

To get it in my driveway, they will have to drive that prius over my cold dead body.

22 posted on 11/27/2010 8:04:14 PM PST by palmer (Cooperating with Obama = helping him extend the depression and implement socialism.)
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To: RayChuang88
battery packs can be VASTLY smaller

And a lot more expensive, and don't like to be discharged, ...

23 posted on 11/27/2010 8:06:32 PM PST by palmer (Cooperating with Obama = helping him extend the depression and implement socialism.)
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To: Nachum

Electric vehicles can only be practical for those individuals who own electrified garages.

Street parkers, those who just have parking pads or garages and car ports without electricity, or those who live in apartment and park in a lot, none of those folks (a large percentage of the driving public) can even consider an electric car.

I can’t see this as a predominant means of getting around.


24 posted on 11/27/2010 8:17:53 PM PST by I_Like_Spam
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird
I notice that that chart does not count CO2 from fossil fuel powerplants in the emissions calculations...
25 posted on 11/27/2010 8:19:06 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: goldstategop
” ... absence of fast acceleration. ... “

I do not think that there is any inherent limitation with electric motors as far as providing acceleration. Electric motors have a lot of torque for zero (0) RPM, so to provide enhanced acceleration, gearing is all that is needed. Please correct me if I am wrong.

26 posted on 11/27/2010 8:24:26 PM PST by J Edgar
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To: Gay State Conservative

My gasoline-powered car also loves the highway. There are a few highways in Texas with 80mph speed limits. I set the cruise ocntrol at 80mph and average 35-38MPG. That, and my car has a curb weight of 3,500lbs.


27 posted on 11/27/2010 8:25:27 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Nachum

I’m still waiting for Mr. Fusion so I can hook up my Delorian.


28 posted on 11/27/2010 8:27:16 PM PST by Dogbert41
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To: 69ConvertibleFirebird

7 hr charge at 240 volts. about 20 hours at 110/120V


29 posted on 11/27/2010 8:31:13 PM PST by stylin19a (Never buy a putter until you first get a chance to throw it)
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To: Owen

That $7000 to replace that battery could have bought a lot of diesel to run that modern 60 mpg diesel. Some day they may even grow diesel with algae or some kind of genetically engineered Elaeis guineensis.


30 posted on 11/27/2010 8:38:28 PM PST by jonrick46 (We're being water boarded with the sewage of Fabian Socialism.)
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To: stylin19a

A 220 volt circuit at 30 amps will charge these batteries at 6.6 kilowatt-hours per hour for 7 hours. A 5600 watt dryer uses 5.6 kilowatt-hours. So, if you run the equivalent of a dryer for 7 hours each night, will one be charged a night time rate? Nope! Electrical rates will go up as more batteries are charged. And those home owners heating their homes on those cold winter nights will be paying to the nose because we have people living in a fantasy world on an unicorn farm.


31 posted on 11/27/2010 8:42:36 PM PST by jonrick46 (We're being water boarded with the sewage of Fabian Socialism.)
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To: csmusaret
And don’t forget to add in the cost of disposing of old batteries. I am sure the “re-cycling fees” will be substantial.

Those who don't think through a process don't understand the possible results with unintended consequences.

When we visit our children in CA, they've told us that the only people they see driving hybrids are libs and ghays.


32 posted on 11/27/2010 8:47:21 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: dalereed
i hope i’m dead bfore i have to drive an electric or hybred car!

Me too. They're un-American.

.

My 1964 Shelby AC Cobra:

Prius freaks wet their pants when they see and hear this beast.

33 posted on 11/27/2010 8:54:12 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: Cobra64

I built one for Dennis Wilson of the Beach Boys with a 429 to go drag racing.

I have no idea what happened to it.

When he got off on drugs he traded it in to Hollywood Sport Car for a motorcycle.

Shelby rented for 2 weeks at $1,000/day to find out how we blew his ass off every Sunday.


34 posted on 11/27/2010 9:04:04 PM PST by dalereed
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To: Cobra64

A frend of mine had 3 of them, had to sell one when he got divorced but still has 2, one of which he still races.

About 4 years ago he had the one he races, unrestored, at a car show and was offered a million for it and turned it down.


35 posted on 11/27/2010 9:19:17 PM PST by dalereed
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To: Dan(9698)

Why did you rush to publicly demonstrate your lack of knowledge about the Prius when you could have remained anonymous and kept your secret?

I’ve been driving a Prius since 2006. I traded up to the latest generation Prius last year. I get anywhere between 50 and 60 mpg on regular gas at consistent highway speeds of 65 to 70 mph and have plenty of reserve power (using the electric motor and gas engine combined) to get it over 80 when needed. Going up hills at 65 to 75 is no strain at all although the mpg will drop briefly into the mid 40’s. I don’t defer to 18 wheelers because I can’t keep up with them; I do it because I know what they have to do to make a living and I don’t want to make it any harder on them than it already is.


36 posted on 11/27/2010 9:20:00 PM PST by Postman
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To: Bryanw92
Electric motors are wonderful things and last a lot longer than gas motors with less maintenance. But they have two major limitations:

  1. How much weight they can move and
  2. How much energy they can store.

As long as they are plugged into the grid, electric storage is not a big issue. Once you need to get off the grid, you need massive batteries to massive weight. The bigger the batteries, the bigger the weight.

Which is why an electric golf cart works just fine if you are moving people and light equipment around a plant or a shopping center . . . but doesn't work so well once you need to go further.

I'm a big fan of electric motors for my lawn tools-- weed whacker, push mower and the like. But I have the sense enough to know that they outperform their gas counterparts only because I run them for 30-40 minutes at a time.

37 posted on 11/27/2010 9:48:23 PM PST by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Diesel is all kinds of awesome.


38 posted on 11/27/2010 11:05:00 PM PST by BenKenobi (Don’t worry about being effective. Just concentrate on being faithful to the truth.)
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To: dalereed

About a year ago an original one sold for $5 million at auction.


39 posted on 11/27/2010 11:23:43 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: goldstategop

Electric Vehicle Acceleration???

No Problem.

http://www.killacycle.com/

Of course your range may suffer some...


40 posted on 11/28/2010 9:38:27 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Army Air Corps
My gasoline-powered car also loves the highway. There are a few highways in Texas with 80mph speed limits. I set the cruise ocntrol at 80mph and average 35-38MPG.

What on earth are you driving that gives you 38mpg at 80mph????

41 posted on 11/28/2010 1:07:51 PM PST by Gay State Conservative (''I don't regret setting bombs,I feel we didn't do enough.'' ->Bill Ayers,Hussein's mentor,9/11/01)
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To: Army Air Corps

We have driven all over the state of Texas for years and have never seen any 80MPH speed limits on public roads. Where are the ones you are speaking about?


42 posted on 11/28/2010 1:12:05 PM PST by Ditter
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To: Figment
What is this range of which you speak?

You have top parse the sentence as it **is** government-speak. The range that won't be sacrificed is their pet poodle named Range. No sacrifices will have to take place.

43 posted on 11/28/2010 3:38:23 PM PST by 69ConvertibleFirebird
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To: Ditter

That would be I-10 with a posted limit of 80mph (especially going west from San Antonio). It was 80 the last time I was down there about a year ago. There are also stretches of highway in West Texas with posted limits of 80mph.


44 posted on 11/28/2010 3:39:11 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Nachum
Richard Gilbert is a Toronto-based consultant who focuses on energy and transportation.

Yeah? Who is he a consultant for?

45 posted on 11/28/2010 3:40:07 PM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: Nachum

How is the electricity it takes to charge a battery produced?


46 posted on 11/28/2010 3:41:52 PM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: Army Air Corps

I live 2 blocks from I10 in Houston and I have driven it all the way out to west Texas. I don’t recall any 80MPH speed limits, but if you say there is, I’ll just have to take your word for it.


47 posted on 11/28/2010 5:11:16 PM PST by Ditter
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To: Postman
I don’t defer to 18 wheelers because I can’t keep up with them

I guess all you Prius drivers like the scenery so you go up hills at 35 MPH.

When an 18 wheeler has to slow down behind you while other traffic clears, it takes a long time and distance for them to pass, but they do that.

If you calculate the cost per mile for running a Prius, it is more than my motorhome. Also you have to enjoy the sagebrush on the hills around you.

48 posted on 11/28/2010 5:45:43 PM PST by Dan(9698)
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To: Ditter

I am just going by what was on road signs from Junction all the way to SA about a year ago.


49 posted on 11/28/2010 5:49:48 PM PST by Army Air Corps (Four fried chickens and a coke)
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To: Nachum

the Federal Gov’mt makes more money off a gallon of gas than any other entity in the World. They aren’t gonna give but lip service to anything else unless they can “replace” that somehow.

A really medieval mindset.


50 posted on 11/28/2010 5:52:31 PM PST by mo
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