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American Retirement Funds at Serious Risk of Being Seized
The Market Oracle ^ | 12/7/2010 | Jeb_Handwerger

Posted on 12/09/2010 9:40:45 AM PST by FromLori

The news of Hungary effectively seizing private pension fund assets to pay for the debt obligations of the state last week should come as yet another reminder of the urgent need to get tax-sheltered retirement savings away from the clutches of the state before it's too late. Hungary is just the latest country to decide that it's citizens retirement savings are the property of the state.

The last major country to use similar tactics was Argentina who confiscated about $3.2 billion of pension savings in 2001 before the country stopped servicing its debt and then nationalized the $24 billion industry two years ago to compensate for falling tax revenue after a 2005 debt restructuring.

On November 24th the Hungarian government gave its citizens an ultimatum: move your private-pension fund assets to the state or lose your state pension. Economy Minister Gyorgy Matolcsy announced the policy, escalating a government drive to bring 3 trillion forint ($14.6 billion) of privately managed pension assets under state control to reduce the budget deficit and public debt. Workers who opt against returning to the state system stand to lose 70 percent of their pension claim.

Americans who think "this can't happen here" may want to think again.

In September of this year the US Treasury investigated the possibility of requiring retirement funds to hold a percentage of government securities in their investment portfolio. That, in effect, would be a nationalization of 401ks and IRAs.

And don't think for a second that the US is in better financial shape than Hungary.

(Excerpt) Read more at marketoracle.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 401k; 401ks; argentina; broke; debt; hungary; iras; kleptocracy; pension; retirement; seized; seizure; tyranny
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1 posted on 12/09/2010 9:40:54 AM PST by FromLori
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To: FromLori

If they ever tried to seize this stuff I’d simply drain the accounts and take the loss.


2 posted on 12/09/2010 9:43:57 AM PST by Peter from Rutland
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To: Peter from Rutland

This is the kind of behavior that would get a lot of people moving on D.C. with loaded guns.


3 posted on 12/09/2010 9:45:55 AM PST by thethirddegree
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To: Peter from Rutland

Lori...they would probably pass a law to make cashing out our retirement accounts illegal and make it retroactive.


4 posted on 12/09/2010 9:46:17 AM PST by CaptainKip
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To: FromLori

Violence would be the only sensible reaction to such an attempt.


5 posted on 12/09/2010 9:47:14 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: FromLori

I can’t think of a clearer example of government robbing the people of something the people have earned.


6 posted on 12/09/2010 9:48:39 AM PST by popdonnelly (Class warfare is Obama's thing.)
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To: Peter from Rutland
if they decide this in the dead of night and it goes into effect immediately how are you going to get your money back?...

its gone....all that giving up vacations, and second homes and fancy cars etc so you could be a "responsible" citizen and pay your bills and save for retirement....it all meant NOTHING at all...

7 posted on 12/09/2010 9:50:17 AM PST by cherry
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To: ClearCase_guy

Thank goodness they haven’t yet succeeded in disarming us all.


8 posted on 12/09/2010 9:50:29 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: FromLori

We live in a kleptocracy, where thieves make all the rules, and control everything. Sooner or later, Americans will have to do whatever is necessary to prosecute them in the public court, execute them for the destruction they’ve caused, and restore Constitutional law.


9 posted on 12/09/2010 9:50:29 AM PST by pallis
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To: FromLori

They will be very sneaky about taking your money.
First they will pass some rule that forces the 401K managers to move part of your portfilio into government bonds. They they will keep on shifting the percentage until all of your 401K is in government bonds. At that point hey own your retirement fund.


10 posted on 12/09/2010 9:54:02 AM PST by BuffaloJack (The Recession is officially over. We are now into Obama's Depression.)
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To: cherry
if they decide this in the dead of night and it goes into effect immediately how are you going to get your money back?...

This is exactly how they will do it. They're corrupt, not stupid.

11 posted on 12/09/2010 9:54:32 AM PST by Bronzewound
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To: pallis

I agree I noticed obama’s favorite banker is back at the White House again no doubt giving him pointers or just flat out telling him what to do and lol some people still believe he is anti banker even though they donated so heavily to him, acorn, etc.

Obama, Dimon Met at White House to Talk Economy, Official Says

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-12-08/obama-dimon-met-at-white-house-to-talk-economy-official-says.html


12 posted on 12/09/2010 9:56:00 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: pallis

Nice dream. More like “later”. I’ve been having that same dream....

but I fear it will never happen.

The socialist (communist) Dems have gotten away with everything else so far. I have no reason to think they won’t continue to get away witn their treachery, treason and theft.


13 posted on 12/09/2010 9:56:00 AM PST by XenaLee (The only good commie is a dead commie.)
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To: FromLori
Isn't it just easier for the Fed to print up more monopoly money?

It's only a matter of time before our King confiscates the middle class serf's home equity, IRAs, pensions, and rest of what's in the piggy bank. BECAUSE THEY CAN.

Bleat if you must. So far it's all anyone does.

14 posted on 12/09/2010 9:59:09 AM PST by Conservative Tsunami
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To: BuffaloJack

The bankers took the Irish pensions to pay for the bad loans the debt they are having to pay is bad bank debt!

Why the Irish Crisis is Going Global

Short answer because they have to pay off all the banks bad debts! See here..

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Why-the-Irish-Crisis-is-Going-usnews-4028366968.html?x=0

Up to €50 billion—nearly $50,000 for every household in the Emerald Isle

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704506404575592360334457040.html

Ireland’s Debt Servitude

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/finance/ambroseevans-pritchard/100008812/irelands-debt-servitude

Well they are not getting ours I actually mailed in a request yesterday to get our remaining money out.


15 posted on 12/09/2010 10:00:34 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: cherry
how are you going to get your money back?...

I'll take it out in trade....

16 posted on 12/09/2010 10:01:10 AM PST by Tijeras_Slim (Pablo lives jubtabulously!)
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To: Peter from Rutland

Donna Shalala (sp?), Clinton’s Secretary of HHS, raised the idea of “recapturing” lost taxes on 401k’s and was quickly slapped down by her boss, Bill Clinton, circa 1993.


17 posted on 12/09/2010 10:09:01 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
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To: FromLori
France seizes €36bn of pension assets

George Coats 29 Nov 2010

Asset managers will have the chance to get billions of euros in mandates in the next few months for the €36bn Fonds de Réserve pour les Retraites (FRR), the French reserve pension fund, after the French parliament last week passed a law to use its assets to pay off the debts of France’s welfare system.

The assets have been transferred into the state’s social debt sinking fund Cades. The FRR will continue to control the assets, but as a third-party manager on behalf of Cades.

The change is included in the annual social security law that was adopted last week and will be published by the end of December after anticipated approval by the constitutional court.

The move reflects a willingness by governments to use long-term assets to fill short-term deficits, including Ireland’s announcement last week that it would use the country’s €24bn National Pensions Reserve Fund “to support the exchequer’s funding programme” and Hungary’s bid to claw $15bn of private pension funds back to the state system.

The decision has prompted a radical restructuring of the FRR’s investments. The new strategic investment plan, which will be released in the new year, will see a rapid reduction in its 40% allocation to equities and a shift to cash and short-term government bonds, according to a source close to the situation.

There will be a focus on liability-driven investment, where asset managers are told to minimise risk by matching assets closely to liabilities.

The transfer of the FRR’s assets to Cades is controversial. Force Ouvrière, a trade union confederation, accused the government of “provoking the clinical death” of the FRR.

The decision was taken within the context of this year’s pension reform, which provoked riots with its decision to raise the retirement age. The state old-age pension system, the Cnav, is in deficit, and responsibility for financing the deficit rests with Cades.

The government is requiring the FRR to pay €2.1bn a year to Cades to meet this obligation.

The government claims that the rise in retirement age will return Cnav to balance by 2018, so the FRR is expected to pay this sum for the next eight years. The FRR will then be wound down. It is expected to cease operations by 2024.

The schedule of payments will account for about two-thirds of the FRR’s assets. A source close to the situation said: “That means it will keep about one-third of the total without any liability constraint, and will have the opportunity to manage that part of the fund in a normal active and long-term way.”

Another source said: “In most years, the FRR accounts for more than 50% of asset management mandates in France.”

He said the FRR had been an innovative force in the relatively conservative French asset management world. It had pioneered a shift in the style of managing money in France, from balanced mandates, where a single fund manager invested its client’s money in many different asset classes, to specialist mandates, involving many fund managers focusing on particular areas of expertise.

The FRR promoted socially responsible investment, increased the use of investment consultants and encouraged objectivity in assessing performance.

The source added that without the FRR, “the risk is that the market will slip back into its old habits and slower pace”.

An asset manager said: “Clearly, the move creates new opportunities, because the French asset management market will be reshuffled because of the changes.

But it is also a step back because there are very few French capitalised pension schemes, and the experience around the FRR, the richness of the asset management and the opportunities it created will disappear in a few years.”

France seizes €36bn of pension assets

18 posted on 12/09/2010 10:10:17 AM PST by DeaconBenjamin (A trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're NOT talking real money)
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To: FromLori

“American Retirement Funds at Serious Risk of Being Seized”

####

Yo Commies:

Got Civil War if you want it.


19 posted on 12/09/2010 10:11:44 AM PST by EyeGuy (RaceMarxist Obama: The Politics of Vengeance)
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To: popdonnelly

“I can’t think of a clearer example of government robbing the people of something the people have earned.”

####

Maybe not quite as clear, but the ongoing, trillion dollar, openly racist reparations program originally known as the “War on Poverty”, for one.


20 posted on 12/09/2010 10:13:53 AM PST by EyeGuy (RaceMarxist Obama: The Politics of Vengeance)
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To: Conservative Tsunami

By inflating the currency,
they steal your savings.

They’ll do it this way, because as Lenin said, not one man in a million will understand what they’re doing.


21 posted on 12/09/2010 10:14:07 AM PST by MrB (The difference between a (de)humanist and a Satanist is that the latter knows who he's working for.)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

Thanks. They are doing it all over the globe I don’t trust them one bit.


22 posted on 12/09/2010 10:14:16 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: MrB

“By inflating the currency,
they steal your savings.”

####

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMlqn_Hjyi8


23 posted on 12/09/2010 10:17:12 AM PST by EyeGuy (RaceMarxist Obama: The Politics of Vengeance)
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To: FromLori

I did everything the right way..put cash into ira and 401k accounts, paid my taxes, bought and owned my own home. Now, there are people who want to take all of this away...I am close to retirement age, yet there are those that want to raise the age for SS...I paid into it for 35 years, now this group wants to take it away from me...I lived in the same house for 22 years, now this group wants to take that away from me..I saved cash so that I could retire early and live a decent life, now this group wants to take that away from me...this group is made up of 25 to 45 year old people, and of 65 to 90 year old people...they are made up of both liberals and conservatives.......touch my life and you will indeed have a shooting war..


24 posted on 12/09/2010 10:17:21 AM PST by joe fonebone (The House has oversight of the Judiciary...why are the rogue judges not being impeached?)
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To: MrB

How to boil a frog, huh?


25 posted on 12/09/2010 10:18:10 AM PST by billorites (freepo ergo sum)
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To: FromLori

From the book Vampire Economy:

“The totalitarian State will not have an empty
treasury so long as private companies or individuals
still have ample cash or liquid assets.”


26 posted on 12/09/2010 10:19:47 AM PST by PeterPrinciple ( Seeking the truth here folks.)
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To: thethirddegree

“This is the kind of behavior that would get a lot of people moving on D.C. with loaded guns.”

And those would be just the backup weapons.


27 posted on 12/09/2010 10:21:33 AM PST by Da Coyote
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To: MrB
By inflating the currency, they steal your savings.

Yup.

Double the money supply and our savings is reduced by half.

They’ll do it this way, because as Lenin said, not one man in a million will understand what they’re doing.

We do now, don't we? The jig is up. The Ruling Elites are going to have to pull the plug on both the internet and the 2a.

28 posted on 12/09/2010 10:22:01 AM PST by Conservative Tsunami
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To: FromLori

It sure as hell can happen here..................

29 posted on 12/09/2010 10:22:38 AM PST by Red Badger (The House finally fell on Nancy Pelosi..........)
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To: joe fonebone

I feel the same way even about the Social Security we were forced to pay into that and I don’t give a rats azz if the politicians stole it both of us paid in over 40 years each and we want our money back.

To not do so would be outright theft which many on here seem to have no problem with.

Our home is paid for and we have no debts and it’s bad enough that because of the fed’s printing which is devaluing the dollar we are experiencing inflation on every day things we need, i.e., food, gas and getting next to nothing on our savings. The banks are just parking the money and earning far more interest then we are.


30 posted on 12/09/2010 10:27:02 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: PeterPrinciple

An Irishman Speaks His Mind

Warning lots of language

Somehow we think the distinguished Irish gentleman will not make it on CNBC: in under two minutes he explains everything there is to know about modern kleptocratic ponzinomics

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/irishman-speaks-his-mind


31 posted on 12/09/2010 10:30:44 AM PST by FromLori (FromLori)
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To: ClearCase_guy

There are other tactics people might employ that would preclude the need for random violence. Let’s just say that if the government is ever prepared to steal from the people, the people can certainly return the favor - or do it first.


32 posted on 12/09/2010 10:34:39 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: Peter from Rutland

>>”If they ever tried to seize this stuff I’d simply drain the accounts and take the loss.”<<

Better hurry. There’s about 100 million other Americans who are thinking the same thing. If they decide they want it, they will take it overnight and there ain’t a damn thing you could do about it......except weep.


33 posted on 12/09/2010 10:38:03 AM PST by panaxanax (IMPEACH THE MUSLIM MARXIST....NOW!!!)
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To: cherry

At that point it would not be about getting the money back.

A husband finding his wife’s rapist is not about having her un-raped.


34 posted on 12/09/2010 10:38:18 AM PST by ctdonath2 (+)
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To: andy58-in-nh
if the government is ever prepared to steal from the people ...

Yeah, I'll ... uh ... I'll be on the lookout for that sort of thing.

35 posted on 12/09/2010 10:39:46 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: EyeGuy
Maybe not quite as clear, but the ongoing, trillion dollar, openly racist reparations program originally known as the “War on Poverty”, for one.

Multitrillon and rising. End these useless wars. On Poverty and on drugs. Let people lead their own lives.

36 posted on 12/09/2010 10:40:10 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
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To: FromLori

They aren’t so stupid as to actually seize it. Here’s what they will do:

1. Mandate a certain percentage be invested in government bonds. This will initially be a fairly low percentage, probably 25%-40%, to avoid too much of an uproar.

2. Simultaneously, the government will absolutely forbid early withdrawals (before 59 1/2, maybe even 65 or the then-current full-benefits age for Social Security), except in case of medical emergency (so that your IRA or 401(k) will pay for a large part of your medical care). There will be an age-based withdrawal schedule that you cannot speed up at all.

3. Simultaneously, you will be mandated to take a minimum percentage of your compensation and put it in either a 401(k), 403(b) or IRA. For those who don’t receive a regular salary check (i.e. business owners who can mess around with payments), there will be mandatory quarterly “contributions.” This will really be nothing more than another tax, and you’ll have only a little more chance of seeing any of this money than you will of seeing your Social Security “investment” being paid off.

4. If you die before your account is drained, half will go to your family, the other half will be forfeit.

5. To make this all palatable (or somewhat so), it’ll probably be done in the immediate aftermath of a combined market crash/financial crisis, and you’ll be “guaranteed” a certain minimum return on your bonds (which will look great in comparison to the wild gyrations in the market). You’ll also be given the option of transferring all of the balance to government bonds, the return on which will also be “guaranteed” (and maybe at a higher rate, to entice people to do it sooner and be enthusiastic about it). Oh, and I believe in my bones that the crash/crisis will be orchestrated for just this purpose (after all, there are many trillions of dollars in retirement funds).

6. A year or two down the line, the mandate will be for 100% investment in government bonds.

Like with guns, we frogs will boil very slowly. Each step will be planned to minimize objections, but our retirement funds will be taken away one salami slice at a time.

As for those above who said, “why do they need this, they can just print money?” - please don’t be naive. First of all, at some point the world is going to demand some actual money be used to pay for our spending, else the dollar will collapse completely and quickly (which wouldn’t be in the interests of TPTB. However, the bigger reason is for the Socialists/Marxists/Fascists to exert control over us. Lose control over your retirement, and you’ve lost control over the vast majority of your liquid funds...and combine that with lack of control over your medical care, hideously high fuel taxes, etc., and you can see how a society of worker drones is being fashioned.

And, yes, this IS grounds for violence, if they decide to try this. It is naked theft, no matter what it is called or how much they smile when they tell you about it. I hope that a lot of people react like those on this thread, maybe that’ll stop the SOBs (or at least cause them some sleepless nights and soiled underwear).


37 posted on 12/09/2010 10:44:34 AM PST by Ancesthntr (Tyrant: "Spartans, lay down your weapons." Free man: "Persian, come and get them!")
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To: Conservative Tsunami

“Double the money supply and our savings is reduced by half.”

In the last two years they printed $100,000,000,000 cash - and it’s all locked in a warehouse.

Contrast: there is about $1.7T cash in existence.


38 posted on 12/09/2010 10:46:59 AM PST by ctdonath2 (+)
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To: ClearCase_guy

LOL. Yeah, I guess they’ve already got their hands in our pockets, don’t they? But taking over our personal retirement accounts? That would be grand larceny on an unprecedented scale, and would deserve an commensurate response.


39 posted on 12/09/2010 10:47:55 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: FromLori

They’ll do it like they did healthcare: you keep the package you have, but they change how it is handled behind the scenes. Thus you have no clear cut basis for complaint (same plan, same results, with a few minor tweaks) but they reap the benefits.

You haven’t taken up arms about your health insurance, have you?


40 posted on 12/09/2010 10:51:10 AM PST by ctdonath2 (+)
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To: ctdonath2

We can just call it “term limits”.


41 posted on 12/09/2010 10:52:31 AM PST by Sir Gawain
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To: Peter from Rutland

Rest assured that before they would publish this edict, they would have anticipated this (your) move and put stops in to prevent it.


42 posted on 12/09/2010 10:55:37 AM PST by SgtHooper
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To: Peter from Rutland

If they actually confiscate our accounts, violent revolt is clearly justified by the standards of our constitution. This is even still true if they promise some cheesy annuity with no inheritance rights,,,,

Anyone who votes to allow this is no better than a Soviet commissar in 1920,, confiscating a Kulaks possessions. They should *expect* violent resistance.

It is so predictable if you look at history, a train wreck is coming unless they stop trying to establish state socialism. Americans have a right to resist outright theft.


43 posted on 12/09/2010 11:05:38 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: Peter from Rutland

And don’t take my words as any more threatening than if i were to say,,,, “if a congressman was hitting my daughter, i would beat him to death”.

Outright confiscation of savings accounts is true, legitimate, historic “Causus Belli”.


44 posted on 12/09/2010 11:08:55 AM PST by DesertRhino (I was standing with a rifle, waiting for soviet paratroopers, but communists just ran for office)
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To: FromLori

If people want to end socialist security, then I have no problem with paying out what people have put in ( I get a statement each year, and have paid more than 350K into this ponzi scheme...with that money, I could live comfortably for the rest of my life ) but the problem is that conservatives want to deny me the cash and the retirement....the libs want to take the cash I saved over 35 years and confiscate it to bolster up the program that I have already paid more than 350K into....I owe next to nothing on my home, yet a repo of my home sells for less than I owe after paying for 22 years....It is my opinion that both libs and conservatives want to screw the 45 to 65 year old population in order to keep those on socialist security on it, and to keep the younger ones wanting to pay into it.....I refuse to be screwed in order to achieve this...leave my money alone, and pay me back what I have put in...nothing more, nothing less..and I will happily opt out of all government assistance from that point forward...take from me what I have spent a lifetime working for, and I will have nothing left to lose..and as my grandpa used to say...” Who is the most dangerous person in the world? A person that has nothing to lose”..........


45 posted on 12/09/2010 11:15:47 AM PST by joe fonebone (The House has oversight of the Judiciary...why are the rogue judges not being impeached?)
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To: thethirddegree
This is the kind of behavior that would get a lot of people moving on D.C. with loaded guns.

Will never, ever happen.

46 posted on 12/09/2010 11:22:42 AM PST by Clint Williams ( America -- a great idea, didn't last: get out while you can.)
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To: ctdonath2
In the last two years they printed $100,000,000,000 cash - and it’s all locked in a warehouse.

Of which apparently HALF is sitting on shrink-wrapped palettes in either Af-Stan or Iraq, OR stashed away in Swiss banks.

;-)

Contrast: there is about $1.7T cash in existence.

From what source do we know that?

47 posted on 12/09/2010 11:23:49 AM PST by Conservative Tsunami
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To: FromLori
They do that here...

It'd be "go time".

48 posted on 12/09/2010 11:27:50 AM PST by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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To: Clint Williams

Don’t bet money on that.


49 posted on 12/09/2010 11:29:40 AM PST by Dead Corpse (III, Alarm and Muster)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Of that, I am certain.


50 posted on 12/09/2010 11:34:33 AM PST by Gator113 (Sarah Palin can win, and she will win.)
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