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Hope for Every Man
Townhall.com ^ | December 20, 2010 | Mike Adams

Posted on 12/20/2010 5:27:57 AM PST by Kaslin

Over the course of the last few weeks, I’ve received numerous well-reasoned emails asking me to explain my differences with radio talk show host Neal Boortz – at least as they pertain to an ongoing controversy involving Augusta State University student Jennifer Keeton. Insofar as our present differences arise from more fundamental differences regarding human imperfection and personal redemption I am pleased to elaborate.

For those not aware, Keeton was threatened with expulsion from Augusta State University for refusing to submit to a re-education program run by state-employed university officials. The re-education program was not targeted towards the manner in which Keeton had articulated certain ideas (including private conversations outside of class with fellow students). Instead, it was focused upon the substance of those ideas.

According to state officials, the principal “problem” was Keeton’s assertion that free will plays a role in homosexual conduct. Because she is a counseling major the state was concerned that, upon graduation, she might incorporate those views into her private professional practice. The “solution” mandated by the government was forced abandonment of her belief in free will. This was stated as a condition of remaining in the state-funded university program.

Neal Boortz’ position on the matter was succinctly summarized on his privately owned website back in early August. His support for the government reeducation program appeared then, as it does now, to be based upon two premises – the first of which I believe to be accurate, the second of which I believe to be deeply flawed.

The first premise is that feelings of homosexuality, when first experienced by a young person, tend to be accompanied by rather intense feelings of confusion and anxiety – as does the decision to seek counseling regarding one’s sexuality. In this regard, Boortz has characterized the situation accurately.

The second premise is that hearing a counselor articulate the view that the patient has some degree of control over his sexuality would heighten, rather than attenuate, his feelings of confusion and anxiety. In this regard, Boortz has characterized the situation inaccurately.

It is unclear how Boortz arrives at the conclusion that someone would find the phrase “You can change” to be more traumatic than the phrase “You cannot change.” Human beings have always been comforted by the idea that they have some control over their fate. To suggest that homosexuals are somehow emotionally traumatized by ideas that are found comforting by others is to suggest a high degree of emotional volatility. The idea is not only condescending but lacks any basis in reality.

The idea that homosexual conduct is fully under the control of genetics has been refuted. If sexual orientation is fully genetically determined, identical twins will always have the same sexual orientation. If one is gay, the other identical twin will always be gay. If one is straight, the other identical twin will always be straight. Since this is not always the case, other factors are involved. This situation cannot be as simple as Boortz imagines it to be.

The State of Georgia is attempting to do no less than force a student to articulate a position that has been empirically falsified; namely, that the genetic influence upon homosexuality is so complete as to nullify free will. Their motivation is predicated upon a second falsehood; namely, that the first falsehood promotes self-esteem.

To date, too much has been made of the fact that the Boortz position is at odds with his professed libertarianism. Not enough has been made of the fact that his position is at odds with his professed Christianity.

Put simply, the Boortz position fails to recognize the distinction between temptation and sin. It also fails to distinguish between living an imperfect life and living a life ruled by imperfection. Those who may have given in to temptations to engage in homosexual conduct are not genetically resigned to the full indulgence of the homosexual lifestyle.

Ideas have consequences. The ideas we express have specific consequences in the course of human history. They may either produce life or they may produce death among those who hear them. In that sense, this case is not just about liberty for one individual. It is about hope for an entire generation.

Jesus did not come into the world to establish government programs that teach people there is nothing wrong with them and that they lack the ability to change. He came into this world to save sinners. But His offer is available only to those willing to acknowledge their sin and willing to change. And He gives us the power to change even when talk show hosts tell us we cannot.

We live in a world that hates God – so much so that it nailed Him to a cross. But Hope was resurrected and is there for every man today. And that is our greatest source of comfort in a world that preaches hopelessness.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: homosexualagenda; liberalfascism; mikeadams; moralabsolutes
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1 posted on 12/20/2010 5:27:58 AM PST by Kaslin
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To: bayouranger; BenKenobi; Biggirl; Blue Collar Christian; Constitutionalist Conservative; ...

Mike Adams Column


Please Freepmail me if you want to be added, or removed from the ping list

2 posted on 12/20/2010 5:29:06 AM PST by Kaslin (Acronym for OBAMA: One Big Ass Mistake America)
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To: Kaslin

Adams is always a pleasure. He “gets it”.


3 posted on 12/20/2010 5:33:57 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Kaslin

Bravo!


4 posted on 12/20/2010 5:37:56 AM PST by Pietro
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To: Kaslin

IMO, Boortz exposes his clay feet on this matter. Boortz likes to be seen as the ultimate libertarian and generally espouses those views. By supporting the use of force by a government school, it is obvious his libertarianism is nuanced rather than principled.

I do not support every position taken by Mike Adams but in this matter he seems well-grounded.


5 posted on 12/20/2010 5:40:57 AM PST by T-Bird45 (It feels like the seventies, and it shouldn't.)
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To: Kaslin
It is unclear how Boortz arrives at the conclusion that someone would find the phrase “You can change” to be more traumatic than the phrase “You cannot change.”

Mr. Adams hasn't read much existentialist drivel, has he? It's practically a cornerstone of the ism that freedom entails horrid anxiety. Moreover there are plenty of people in this world who are averse to anxiety and that other thing freedom entails (responsibility), to such a degree that they will consistently risk their freedom for a cot and a regular feeding.

I have known people who can't endure the sight of a one-page menu.

6 posted on 12/20/2010 5:42:17 AM PST by 668 - Neighbor of the Beast (Merry Christmas!)
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To: Kaslin
It is unclear how Boortz arrives at the conclusion that someone would find the phrase “You can change” to be more traumatic than the phrase “You cannot change.”

It's clear that Dr. Adams has not researched the field very much. This issue is not a new one to counseling.

For example, and I'm simplifying things here and am not a mental-health professional myself, when Emory University found that traumatic events of childhood could result in different brain chemistry for adults (i.e., molested girls growing into women with PTSD had different brain chemistry), it demonstrated that we're not just "blank slates" upon which our thoughts are drawn. And many psychologists were against publicizing the research, saying, "this will take away hope from women who might be able to make some progress in therapy." Meanwhile, psychiatrists said that it would be important to let these women know, because they wouldn't beat themselves up as much for slow progress in therapy.

The State of Georgia is attempting to do no less than force a student to articulate a position that has been empirically falsified; namely, that the genetic influence upon homosexuality is so complete as to nullify free will.

Dang, Dr. Adams does write some good things sometimes, but then he acts like a freshman who's never had a logic or science course.

Is he wholly unaware of things that occur in the womb?!? Does he not realize that testosterone differences to fetuses can change their development?!? And there are even post-natal environmental conditions such as parental and sibling interactions that can't be said to be free will unless we're going to hold a newborn infant responsible for his whole life.

"If it's not genetics, it has to be free will" is a most ridiculous vie, and extremely disturbing, given he's a criminology professor and should know better. Dang, UNCW is an excellent school, in my opinion, but this is highly disturbing. Whether one agrees or disagrees with his end opinion, his reasoning to get where he is...is faulty.

7 posted on 12/20/2010 5:48:28 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

“I have known people who can’t endure the sight of a one-page menu.”
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

“What are you gonna have?”


8 posted on 12/20/2010 6:02:19 AM PST by RipSawyer
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To: Kaslin
IMHO, homosexuals may share something in common with athletes.

Some athletes ... very few .... are those rare creatures we call "naturals." They are just born natural athletes. Most good athletes, and even a few great ones, become that way through practice and dedication.

I tend to believe that this is the case with homosexuals. Some few may well be born that way. The rest work at it. Just as many born "naturals" do not choose to become athletes, perhaps many "born" homosexuals could choose not to become deviant.

9 posted on 12/20/2010 6:03:28 AM PST by Kenny Bunk (America can survive fools in office. It cannot long survive the fools who elect them.)
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To: Kaslin

A very level-headed and thoughtful post...! Thx.


10 posted on 12/20/2010 6:05:27 AM PST by ransacked
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To: 668 - Neighbor of the Beast

Reliance upon government to solve social problems is never successful. Typically it results in some form of socialism in which those in authority declare a slave and a master class division. This works for the masters and for those slaves who wish to be slaves. It does not work for those who choose a third alternative. They are enemies of the state and usually get imprisoned or killed.
Before the advent of social legislation communities took care of their needy. Graphic pictures of horrid poverty under this regimen ignore the horrid poverty under government programs to alleviate poverty.


11 posted on 12/20/2010 6:11:10 AM PST by Louis Foxwell (pka: Amos the Prophet)
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To: Gondring

Are you seriously implying homosexuals have no free will? Do you believe it’s impossible for a homosexual to change?

Listen, we’re all tempted to do all manner of harmful, aka sinful, things. I’m heterosexual. Surprisingly enough, I somehow remain faithful to my wife in spite of my heterosexual tendencies and the general availability of other women. I have the FREE WILL to resist temptation. That’s fundamental Christian thought. Not only that, but it’s reality. No one has to act on their temptations.

Personally, I think gender is far more mutable than most people are willing to admit. Men who would probably never engage in sodomy in free life apparently enjoy buggering their cellmates in prison. Either they were all born with homosexual tendencies, or they adapted to their environment.


12 posted on 12/20/2010 6:15:24 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Consider me a "Domestic Extremist" for believing, "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!")
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To: CitizenUSA

Free Will on action or to stop desires?


13 posted on 12/20/2010 6:19:34 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: ClearCase_guy

Powerful article by Mike Adams


14 posted on 12/20/2010 6:20:48 AM PST by maica
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To: Gondring
We all have desires. We are all tempted. No one can block that out and say "I have no illicit desires of any kind".

But it is possible for our actions to be moral. We can resist temptation. And if we are not quite perfect in the resistance, we can at least say "I should not have given in; I should not have done that."

But homosexuals wallow in their sin. They are proud of it. They allow it to define them. They make no effort to break away from carnal desire and pleasure.

15 posted on 12/20/2010 6:26:47 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: T-Bird45

The problem is, it’s not clear exactly what is being required of this student. The school has contradicted her claims, so it’s hard to know what to believe.

If a mathematics student refused to learn multiplication, or a medical student insists on learning the anatomy of only one gender, is it a use of force by a government school to say the student hasn’t completed the requirements for the degree?


16 posted on 12/20/2010 6:27:01 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Kaslin

The state U with taxpayer dollars is not just teaching satan’s religion, it is attempting to force her to adopt it..


17 posted on 12/20/2010 6:29:08 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: ClearCase_guy
I mean, Dr. Adams pulls the "conduct" and "orientation" bait-and-switch.
The idea that homosexual conduct is fully under the control of genetics has been refuted. If sexual orientation is fully genetically determined, identical twins will always have the same sexual orientation.
But homosexuals wallow in their sin. They are proud of it.

You know more about it than I do, I guess. I know homosexuals who don't act that way..in fact, I'd guess that the vast majority of ones I know don't do so. But I'm not in an area known for such things so I admit it might be different elsewhere.

18 posted on 12/20/2010 6:29:27 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: yldstrk
The state U with taxpayer dollars is not just teaching satan’s religion, it is attempting to force her to adopt it..

Augusta State University: "No student is asked to change their religious beliefs or views in order to participate in any program."

19 posted on 12/20/2010 6:31:20 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring
I'm sorry. Maybe I need more coffee, but I cannot grasp what it is you are precisely trying to say. I don't see you defining "conduct" and I don't see you defining "orientation". I think you might be trying to state an opinion on one or another of these things, but I don't think it's coming through in your post.

Oh well.

20 posted on 12/20/2010 6:35:15 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: ClearCase_guy
Those are Dr. Adams' words, using "conduct" and "orientation."

I'm interpreting them as conduct being actions, and orientation being desires.

Sex isn't a powerful force for some, but I bet that many who were told "you can't have sex for your whole life except with those you don't find any attraction to" would find it very difficult to follow. And that's what's being told to homosexuals who might be that way from birth.

Does that mean that they have no control over what they do? No...but if a person's underlying sexual desires are suppressed, I'm sure there are some effects to be addressed in counseling. For a counselor not to have exposure to that is to mean she has an incomplete understanding of those who might seek her professional services.

21 posted on 12/20/2010 6:42:38 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring

I’m talking about the free will to act or not act appropriately. If you’re defending homosexuality because they can’t help feeling desire for someone of the same sex, then you might as well defend thieves, liars, murderers and pretty much everyone else. Everyone has unhealthy desires, but responsible, mature people choose to restrain themselves. Plus, it’s quite possible to alter one’s thoughts over time.

The mind is not set in stone. Scripture is actually an excellent guide here if people will only follow it. Sin doesn’t arise out of nowhere. It starts as a stray thought, a momentary temptation, and grows into strong desire if given a chance to root. A person can nip unhealthy thoughts (temptations) in the bud, so that they don’t rise to the point of sin. Unfortunately, there is no hope for a homosexual who does not think there is anything wrong with homosexuality, because they cannot then repent. They are damned by their own free choice.

Homosexuals really aren’t all that different from other sinners. One can either blame one’s problems on someone or something else, refuse to believe one has a problem in the first place, or accept responsibility and try to fix it.


22 posted on 12/20/2010 6:50:09 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Consider me a "Domestic Extremist" for believing, "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!")
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To: Gondring

Your analogy is wrong. Mathematics can be proven. Free will or lac of is a philosophical idea. They are trying to force her to accept a catechism.


23 posted on 12/20/2010 6:56:37 AM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: CitizenUSA
Sorry, but I gotta run. You make some good points to address, but lacking time, I will just leave with this...

[...] accept responsibility and try to fix it.

How, if all of the counselors refuse to gain an understanding of the topic?



24 posted on 12/20/2010 6:57:24 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring

The best answer for a counselor to give such a client (whose sexual desires are being repressed—oh such a tough situation in today’s world when according to TV a human is supposed to be akin to a guppy) is this: “God knows your struggle and your pain. It is best to remain single and devote yourself to God’s work, but if you are worried about committing sexual sin, pray and God will find you a wife (or husband as the case may be) but you will have trouble in that relationship.” All Biblical.

Watch the You Tubes of Bishop Sheen. At the end of each of our lives either Satan will be there to claim you or Jesus will be there to you; “Mine.” It is very riveting.

So basically, there is no secular.

If you read through or listen to the New Testament, time and time again, the prohibition of sexual sin is repeated. It is not enough to be kind and generous and continue to sin sexually. A person must do it all.

So Gondring, I do not know what your deal is, only that your ideas are very fluid, shall I say. Further study is what I recommend.


25 posted on 12/20/2010 6:58:03 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: kabumpo

Expose her to it. Not force her to accept it, from what I read.


26 posted on 12/20/2010 6:58:13 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: yldstrk

Sorry I can’t explain now, as I’ve evidently not explained my point well. And please read my comments in reference to this specific story...not homosexuality in general. And I’m not saying homosexuality is Biblical, nor that there’s no free will to avoid certain behaviors.


27 posted on 12/20/2010 7:00:39 AM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring
Thanks for clarifying.

I would say that most homosexuals are made that way after birth, perhaps through some trauma (molestation). In these cases, counseling is certainly indicated. Many cases involving cured homosexuals are known.

However, there may be some cases of people being born homosexual, perhaps through the effects of hormones in the womb. Perhaps counseling cannot help these people to change. Nevertheless, I would expect them to control their behavior. I do believe that humans have free will and that those who engage in improper behavior (and we all do) need to recognize that "My behavior was wrong".

It is my belief that our society discourages the idea that homosexuality is wrong and that, today, most homosexuals simply do not recognize that they ought to try to not live that lifestyle. This goes for those who are "born that way" or those who were not. Acting upon the desires is always a choice, and if society doesn't tell then it is a bad choice, then society is not helping them.

28 posted on 12/20/2010 7:00:51 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: CitizenUSA; Gondring; Kenny Bunk; Kaslin
The counsling major at the center of this story, Jennifer Keeton, in fact is defending the enlightened proposition that homosexuals are rational beings.

Rational beings can control their behavior: imperfectly at first, yet they can choose long-term straategies to achieve more and responsible and intelligent control.

Rational beings can influence their own feelings and reactions to bring them into harmony with their beliefs and values: yes, imperfectly at first, yet they can take steps over time to achieve deeper and broader harmony.

All of this is certainly limited and modified by one's genome, one's prenatal hormonal influences, one's early childhood development, environmental factors, altereed brain physiology due to traumas, and all the rest. But the will to modify one's life over time, the discipline to understand one's past influences, and the intelligence to shape a realistic strategyof self-determination, is part of our endowment as human beings.

These are axioms about a human person's nature as a rational being. These axioms are found in Christianity, but also in secular and humanist fields such as "education" and "counseling," which necessarily assume that people have some degree of power to understand their history and shape their destiny. If this were not so, why bother with "counseling" at all?

If it were actually true that homosexuals in particular, or people in general, are incapable to modifying their own attitudes and behavior, there would be no point in having a "re-education program", no point in having counseling programs, and no point in having Augusta State University.

29 posted on 12/20/2010 7:07:46 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks the reason for the hope you have." 1 Peter 3:15)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Nicely said.


30 posted on 12/20/2010 7:10:33 AM PST by ClearCase_guy
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To: Kaslin
The first premise is that feelings of homosexuality, when first experienced by a young person, tend to be accompanied by rather intense feelings of confusion and anxiety – as does the decision to seek counseling regarding one’s sexuality. In this regard, Boortz has characterized the situation accurately.

The second premise is that hearing a counselor articulate the view that the patient has some degree of control over his sexuality would heighten, rather than attenuate, his feelings of confusion and anxiety. In this regard, Boortz has characterized the situation inaccurately.

I read that there is no gene or predisposition associated with homosexuality.

As to the first premise, it seems that boys (and girls) grow up more comfortable with friends of the same sex. This includes their sexual awakening, discovery, and talk about the pleasure associated with genitalia, and curiosity about the opposite sex. The male and female genitalia are made for union. About 1% of the boys never make the adjustment to the opposite sex. Instead, they focus on the intense pleasure associated with their own genitalia and their own sex. This obsession becomes their primary focus in life.

I do not know where the confusion and anxiety come from; the natural law is union between a man and a woman. Perhaps the confusion and anxiety occur because the people involved know deep down that their focus on themselves sexually is unnatural and perverted, especially if they include another person of the same sex. Given a circle and a cylinder, 99% of the people will figure out how to combine them. Maybe 1% will become obsessed with two circles or two cylinders, forever attempting to combine like and like, and forever frustrated, confused, and anxious.

This does not address the mental and physical risks to health and well being, shorter life span, and a long list of diseases including AIDS, that these misguided men and women face. Maybe that is another source of confusion and anxiety, IMO.

31 posted on 12/20/2010 7:11:26 AM PST by olezip
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To: ClearCase_guy

“Acting upon the desires is always a choice, and if society doesn’t tell then it is a bad choice, then society is not helping them.”

People all over refuse to do right. It isn’t just homosexuals. Illegal aliens, for example, refuse to accept they are wrong for coming here illegally. The circumstances are beyond their control, they deserve to come here, there shouldn’t be any borders, they are only doing the work that Americans won’t do. The excuses never stop. No one in this day and age is ever responsible for their own actions. It’s always somebody else’s fault.


32 posted on 12/20/2010 7:13:10 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Consider me a "Domestic Extremist" for believing, "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!")
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To: Gondring
… when Emory University found that traumatic events of childhood could result in different brain chemistry for adults (i.e., molested girls growing into women with PTSD had different brain chemistry), it demonstrated that we're not just "blank slates" upon which our thoughts are drawn.

I assume that means that it could cause changes in brain chemistry but that it could also NOT cause changes in brain chemistry which lead to PTSD. Why would it cause changes in some but not others? Could it be the totality of the experience including previously learned values and attitudes?

Regardless, if an event can cause a reaction that changes brain chemistry can't future events change brain chemistry also? Cannot sound reasoning which puts that event into prospective with other values also change brain chemistry? If the change requires a shot of adrenaline, as happened the first time, then that also can be emotionally induced. Is a change in brain chemistry a one-time thing?

As with most things, Scripture speaks to this issue. Forgiving the perp often negates the harm. Putting ones life completely in God's hands will also do the trick. Does that change brain chemistry?

Bottom line, I disagree with the existentialists theory that we are unchangeable, that we are what we are and that is the end of it. Years ago I read B.F. Skinner's book Beyond Freedom and Dignity which espouses that theory. If true, why try to achieve anything? Why punish people for anything? Why give kids grades? Why keep score in games? If the desire is to take meaning from life then it is a good theory. It is all part of the long term goal of acclimating the masses to state control by killing the spirit.

I agree with Mike Adams.

33 posted on 12/20/2010 7:16:52 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Mark for later reading.


34 posted on 12/20/2010 7:35:25 AM PST by Gvl_M3
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well written and to the heart of the matter!

Christianity reveals far more about the nature of man than the drivel that passes for modern thought. Nowadays they don’t tell people to resist their sinful nature. They tell them to embrace it! Then they blame US for making homosexuals feel bad. They say the world would be a better place if only we’d stop with the sin talk.

Even non-Christians once understood the concept of self discipline and the need to restrain unhealthy impulses. So what if someone catches AIDS so long as they’re true to themselves? Don’t worry, they say. Just put a condom on it (never mentioning that maybe the activity itself should be avoided). Bizarre.


35 posted on 12/20/2010 7:36:20 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Consider me a "Domestic Extremist" for believing, "Land of the Free, Home of the Brave!")
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To: Kaslin; NFHale; hiredhand; Squantos
We live in a world that hates God – so much so that it nailed Him to a cross. But Hope was resurrected and is there for every man today. And that is our greatest source of comfort in a world that preaches hopelessness.

bump that...

36 posted on 12/20/2010 7:45:28 AM PST by Gilbo_3 (Gov is not reason; not eloquent; its force.Like fire,a dangerous servant & master. George Washington)
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To: Gondring
Expose her to it. Not force her to accept it, from what I read.

As I suspected, you did not read well.

According to state officials, the principal “problem” was Keeton’s assertion that free will plays a role in homosexual conduct. Because she is a counseling major the state was concerned that, upon graduation, she might incorporate those views into her private professional practice. The “solution” mandated by the government was forced abandonment of her belief in free will. This was stated as a condition of remaining in the state-funded university program.

My other suspicion is that you know you are wrong but refuse to admit it.

37 posted on 12/20/2010 7:50:52 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

As a young man with a strong sexual drive I told all my male friends and relatives that they could trust me with their money and other property, they could trust me to tell the truth but they should never trust me with their women. The fact that I am still alive testifies to my ability to refrain from acting on those desires. :-)


38 posted on 12/20/2010 7:58:29 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Gondring

That form of “re-education” is borrowed from the Reds who got it from the Inquisition. She has already been exposed to the fake-science idea of gay at birth, because we all have, it’s everywhere. They aren’t trying to inform her; their mission is to subjugate her and break her if she won’t knuckle under.


39 posted on 12/20/2010 8:24:27 AM PST by kabumpo (Kabumpo)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
You're a credit to your species. Even the Mind-Numbed Community. :o)

If it were true that gays can't control their sexual behavior, then not only shouldn't they be in the military, they shouldn't be allowed out of the house without restraints.

But that's the absurdity of this whole rigged-up tricked-out argument. It's the "bigoted" "cultural conservatives" who stand alone in saying that gays have the same dignity, rights, and responsibilities as any other beings who possess intellect and will.

Controversial? At the University level, apparently.

40 posted on 12/20/2010 8:42:46 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("Be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks the reason for the hope you have." 1 Peter 3:15)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Although a few fall short, I would refer to Catholic priest and nuns to buttress your argument.


41 posted on 12/20/2010 9:21:10 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Gondring

Interesting. So, you believe that homos have no more hope of changing than pedophiles?


42 posted on 12/20/2010 9:31:05 AM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
As I suspected, you did not read well.

Actually, I read well. You cited Dr. Adams' article, not the actual documents from the school, Miss Keeton, or Judge Hall.

Dr. Adams bears false witness...the school did not mandate a change in her beliefs. This was something pointed out by the judge.

It's only the second part of the Remediation Plan that's in question. Let's look at some of the words from Judge Hall...

"[...] Plaintiff has not provided evidence that the ASU faculty imposed the May 27, 2010 [sic] Remediation Plan because the faculty personally disagree with Plaintiff's expressed personal views, or that the goal of the Plan itself was to alter any of the Plaintiff's personally held views, sufficient to establish that she is substantially likely to succeed on the merits of her claim. To the contrary, the record suggests, and the testimony at the hearing bolsters, that the Plan was imposed because Plaintiff exhibited an inability to counsel in a professionally ethical manner--that is, an inability to resist imposing her moral viewpoint on counselees--in violation of the ACA Code of Ethics, which is part of the ASU counseling program curriculum.
   Furthermore, Plaintiff's refusal to participate in the Plan, which requires her to read counseling literature geared toward counseling GLBTQ persons and attend workshops geared toward that same end, demonstrates Plaintiff's unwillingness to complete curricular requirements. The faculty made clear in various meetings with Plaintiff and through correspondence that it was not Plaintiff's personal beliefs that were their concern, but rather only her inability to separate her personal beliefs in the judgment-free zone of a professional counseling situation, as mandated by the ethical standards incorporated into ASU's curriculum.
Over and over, the judge points out that the program was simply requiring her to adhere to the ethical standards set for the program.

Remember that her complaint even quotes the professors as stating she doesn't have to change her beliefs, but just has to act in accordance with the ACA Code of Ethics.

The question is, should the ASU program follow the ACA ethical standards?

Before answering no, consider what other possibilities exist if we suggest that professionals should allow their personal beliefs to overrule their professional setting with vulnerable clients. I personally don't want to go to a massage therapist and find that he believes in "sexual healing"...I expect him to maintain professional standards. I don't expect a medical school to admit and graduate students who care only about conducting Mengelean experiments, and therefore don't want to follow the professional standards (I recognize that a version of the Hippocratic Oath is not mandatory, but there are still standards required to complete the curriculum).

43 posted on 12/20/2010 7:16:08 PM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot; Lancey Howard; kabumpo; yldstrk; ClearCase_guy; Mrs. Don-o; CitizenUSA
I assume that means that it could cause changes in brain chemistry but that it could also NOT cause changes in brain chemistry which lead to PTSD.

I'm not claiming that the brain chemistry is what leads to PTSD.

Why would it cause changes in some but not others? Could it be the totality of the experience including previously learned values and attitudes?

Maybe. There are also differences in cortisol level curves for men and women, so it could be tied to sex hormones or any number of things, far too numerous to list. As I said, Dr. Adams is ignoring so many factors.

Regardless, if an event can cause a reaction that changes brain chemistry can't future events change brain chemistry also?

I can't do a whole literature review for you--I just provided one example taken from many from a single researcher (Douglas Bremner). The brain structure is also different...Hippocampus research might be particularly relevant to this conversation, in light of the hippocampus differences between homosexual and heterosexual men first reported nearly 20 years ago.

Of course, research is ongoing. Current trials include work to look at neural circuits and potential neurogeneration to help restore structure and function.

I think that's important, because until we can figure out a way to regress people and let their brains develop again, the answer to your question is "no"...just like you can't just change the other things that developed as you became and adult just by wishing them to change.

Bottom line, I disagree with the existentialists theory that we are unchangeable, that we are what we are and that is the end of it.

That's a straw man, as nobody is claiming that.

If the desire is to take meaning from life then it is a good theory. It is all part of the long term goal of acclimating the masses to state control by killing the spirit.

I'm a scientist.* I am looking for what we can learn of objective truth (and I use that non-rigorously--I'm not looking for a philosophical discussion of the meaning of fact, truth, etc.). It's not a religion; I don't have a preconceived idea to which I must fit observations--I believe yldstrk referred to "fitting observations to theories" rather than the reverse as "fluid".

If you are afraid that the truth leads to state control, then I'd respectfully suggest your grasp of the truth is off-base. I am against state control precisely because I believe objective truth shows it to be a negative concept.


Are you a John Cleese fan?
John Cleese - The Scientists - 2008

*Note, I am not a psychiatrist and I have no connection with Emory University or any of the research I cited herein.

44 posted on 12/20/2010 7:16:32 PM PST by Gondring (Paul Revere would have been flamed as a naysayer troll and told to go back to Boston.)
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To: Gondring
The brain structure is also different...Hippocampus research might be particularly relevant to this conversation, in light of the hippocampus differences between homosexual and heterosexual men first reported nearly 20 years ago.

Is it possible that the chicken or egg argument enters here? Don't areas of the brain develop as we use them? In fact, that could be the center of the nature or nurture argument in this case.

That's a straw man, as nobody is claiming that.

It was not intended as such since existentialist were discussed in the article.

45 posted on 12/21/2010 6:45:01 AM PST by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done needs to be done by the government.)
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To: Kaslin; 185JHP; 230FMJ; AFA-Michigan; AKA Elena; Abathar; Agitate; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; ...
Homosexual Agenda and Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee to subscribe or unsubscribe from the homosexual agenda or moral absolutes ping list.

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Mike Adams not only hits this one out of the park, but it circled the globe. Excellent!!!!

46 posted on 12/22/2010 2:52:02 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.CSLewis)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot; Gondring

That brain argument was dicounted years ago. Odd that you’re pushing an wholely discredited (even by the original researcher) pro-homosexual agenda argument. Hmm.


47 posted on 12/22/2010 2:54:50 PM PST by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point.CSLewis)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

Well said.


48 posted on 12/22/2010 3:00:00 PM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: ClearCase_guy; Gondring
I would say that most homosexuals are made that way after birth, perhaps through some trauma (molestation). In these cases, counseling is certainly indicated. Many cases involving cured homosexuals are known.

Like most pedophiles, many homosexuals comment that they were molested as children. Neither behavior is something to be celebrated or admired; both are destructive.

49 posted on 12/22/2010 3:15:30 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Mind-numbed Robot; Gondring

Perhaps Gondring missed this thread posted by Jim Rob...

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2644629/posts


50 posted on 12/22/2010 3:20:57 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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