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Is Pollard Caspar Weinberger's Revenge on the Jews?
IsraeliNationalNews Arutz Sheva ^ | Dec 23, 2010 | Prof. Phyllis Chesler

Posted on 12/23/2010 8:33:25 AM PST by TPOOH

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To: HearMe
Are you so wedded to your prejudices that truth would not modify your opinion?

You're a troll, n00b. Kiss off.

51 posted on 12/23/2010 12:38:08 PM PST by Chunga (Go, Sarah, GO!! - Jim Robinson)
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To: JewishRighter

“Pollard got US spies killed”

“I don’t think there’s any proof for this”

Sure, there is plenty of proof. It just not convenient to belief when you let religion get in the way of being an American first.

Don’t take my word for it. How about people with first hand knowledge.

“David Luchins, an aide to Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, announced to reporters that he had seen “secret documents confirming that Pollard’s spying had resulted in the loss of lives of U.S. intelligence agents.”


52 posted on 12/23/2010 12:43:24 PM PST by WaterBoard
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To: Admin Moderator

So I guess you scrubbed the Pollard thread from last night because more than one side was contributing to the “flamewar?”


53 posted on 12/23/2010 12:44:51 PM PST by papertyger
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To: Admin Moderator

So I guess you scrubbed the Pollard thread from last night because more than one side was contributing to the “flamewar?”


54 posted on 12/23/2010 12:44:56 PM PST by papertyger
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To: dennisw
http://www.jonathanpollard.org/

Truth is the first casualty.

Aldrich Ames in Pete Earley's book spies for the Russians.

Clinton saw to it that China received our missile secrets.

Wen Ho Lee was protected by Bill Richardson, who was Obama's first choice for Commerce.

Saudis took down the towers, and are rewarded with an historic arms deal.

While the two-minute hate resounds on the extant topic, Iranian missiles and Russian tanks find their way to Hugo Chavez.

I found out how our State Department works a couple of years ago.

A person in Iran sought sanctuary, having become a target of the IRGC for efforts on behalf of our CentComm.

In four days of calls, faxes and emails I discovered our State Department has more sympathy for the Islamic Republic than for America.

Too bad what happened to a couple of Iran nuclear scientists.

Man, that traffic is murder.


55 posted on 12/23/2010 12:51:49 PM PST by PhilDragoo (Hussein: Islamo-Commie from Kenya)
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To: Chunga

Really?

Stating facts makes me a troll?

If so I wear the badge proudly.

You are an anti Semitic POS? Ok?


56 posted on 12/23/2010 12:53:45 PM PST by HearMe
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To: MplsSteve

His motivations may have been, in part, his allegiance to Israel.

But he also wanted (and accepted) MONEY for those valuable secrets.

To Israelis he may well be a hero. To Americans he will always be a traitor and a spy.

I am an American.


57 posted on 12/23/2010 12:54:13 PM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send the GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism.)
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To: Lurker

Your unlinked “links” had no citation but appeared to be lifted out of a Wikipedia article. Yes. I’ve tracked it down here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard#cite_ref-26

The money quote “Some commentators identified this interview as a blatant violation of the plea agreement” is cited to one, yes ONE, opinion piece by Joseph C. Goulden, a writer of spy books, but not specially qualified to be clinching authority on this matter.

So, your “links with citations” is basically an empty set consisting of one unauthoritative authority.

To my statement “We are talking about whether a clemency request should be granted at this time” you replied:

“It shouldn’t be. He was sentenced to life. That’s what he should serve.”

When you’re losing the argument, change the topic. We’re not talking about clemency. We’re talking about Lurker’s g-d like power to decide there are some folks who don’t even deserve a discussion of clemency.

Think about your statement. It’s a tautology. Clemency means considering mitigating or other circumstances why a sentence, once imposed, should be reconsidered and shortened or otherwise ameliorated. Your statement says if you’re sentenced, you must not be entitled to clemency. Ergo, no one who is sentenced should even bother asking for clemency. The whole thing with presidents and governors granting clemency must be abolished. In your world, anyway.

I don’t know, nor do I inquire about your beliefs, but, I am compelled to say: “how very un-Christian of you” especially at this time of year.


58 posted on 12/23/2010 12:58:04 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: HearMe

As I said...Troll. ZOT!


59 posted on 12/23/2010 1:04:20 PM PST by Chunga (Go, Sarah, GO!! - Jim Robinson)
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To: WaterBoard

““David Luchins, an aide to Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan, announced to reporters that he had seen “secret documents confirming that Pollard’s spying had resulted in the loss of lives of U.S. intelligence agents.””

Very likely the same Aldrich Ames document that Weinberger gave the Pollard sentencing judge. Ames was privy to all Soviet counter-intelligence info, and admitted in 1994 causing the death of 10 American agents; but not before successfully blaming his crimes on Pollard.


60 posted on 12/23/2010 1:04:34 PM PST by devere
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To: JewishRighter

Now you know what a modern “blood libel” looks like....


61 posted on 12/23/2010 1:10:36 PM PST by papertyger
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To: JewishRighter
When you’re losing the argument, change the topic.

I didn't. I answered your question.

We’re talking about Lurker’s g-d like power to decide there are some folks who don’t even deserve a discussion of clemency.

We are having the discussion. Pollard has had all of his legal rights respected and all of his due process has been delivered right up to SCOTUS. He's lost at every turn.

Clemency means considering mitigating or other circumstances why a sentence, once imposed, should be reconsidered and shortened or otherwise ameliorated.

I've considered it and rejected it. He committed and admitted to multiple acts of Espionage against the United States. He did it for money. He's scum. Let him rot.

I don’t know, nor do I inquire about your beliefs, but, I am compelled to say: “how very un-Christian of you”

Blow me. Has Pollard asked for forgiveness? Has he repented of his behavior or has he continued to try to disseminate classified information? According to published reports he has continued to try to release classified information in letters from his prison cell. That's hardly expressing remorse. Nor is it repenting of his crimes.

You have a very poor knowledge of the Christian concept of forgiveness. Forgiveness should only be given when the person who wronged you truly repents and asks for it. Pollard has done neither.

Therefore he is undeserving of any clemency or forgiveness.

62 posted on 12/23/2010 1:12:02 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: TPOOH

“Is Pollard Caspar Weinberger’s Revenge on the Jews”

No, just one of Aldrich Ames many crimes against the USA.

Pollard is still luckier than ten of our agents who Ames got killed.


63 posted on 12/23/2010 1:15:51 PM PST by devere
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To: Lurker
He did it for money.

Then why didn't he sell what he knew about Israel to the Arabs? He certainly was in a position to cash in on what we knew about Israel without betraying his country.

64 posted on 12/23/2010 1:16:42 PM PST by papertyger
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To: HearMe
Stating facts makes me a troll?

What made you a troll is the fact that you were trolling; it's in post #48, wherein you implied that a poster with an opposing viewpoint was anti-Semitic.

"Are you so wedded to your prejudices that truth would not modify your opinion?"

This is a slur by insinuation: "Excuse me Senator, are you still beating your wife?"

Only idiots employ the sophomoric, transparent trolling you've attempted today. A troll won't last long using those tactics...and you didn't, did you? LOL

65 posted on 12/23/2010 1:25:02 PM PST by Chunga (Go, Sarah, GO!! - Jim Robinson)
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To: Lurker

If it has anything to do with your attitude, I am proud of my poor knowledge of the Christian concept of forgiveness. But I do remember quite a different attitude expressed elsewhere about turning the other cheek, loving your fellow man, peace and good will.

You are full of vengeance and hatred, so I won’t be relying on your definitions of Christian concepts, nor will I be blowing you. Perhhaps you will find solace in the army nowadays and you would do us all proud if you volunteered for some very, very dangerous front-line duty real soon.

You’ve proved a pathetic, unarmed opponent in a contest of thinking and logic. All you’ve got is your insults and your hatred. It’s like arguing with your kid sister who just says nu-uh to every statement of fact and logic.

As many of my good Christian friends on this site know, “I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you.” You are in deep, deep doo doo.


66 posted on 12/23/2010 1:38:12 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: JewishRighter
You are full of vengeance and hatred, so I won’t be relying on your definitions of Christian concepts, nor will I be blowing you. Perhhaps you will find solace in the army nowadays...

BWAHAHAHAHA!

Touche'

67 posted on 12/23/2010 1:42:27 PM PST by papertyger
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To: papertyger

Now you know what a modern “blood libel” looks like....

In fairness, I can see some people having a different point of view. Alright, then, argue with facts and logic. Consider that we have a mechanism to apply a certain amount of compassion and to actually let someone go home without serving their full sentence under certain circumstances. Worse spies than Pollard were actually released for time served before serving half of shorter sentences. Then tell me reasons why Pollard deserves so much worse. Not just stating “well he was really really bad”.

So, given the vehemence and the nastiness of the opposition, it is hard not to feel that there is some undercurrent working here.


68 posted on 12/23/2010 1:44:20 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: JewishRighter
so I won’t be relying on your definitions of Christian concepts, nor will I be blowing you.

Too bad for you.

you would do us all proud if you volunteered for some very, very dangerous front-line duty real soon.

Already did that about 30 years ago sonny boy.

You are in deep, deep doo doo.

Somehow I'll try to sleep nights.

L

69 posted on 12/23/2010 1:44:59 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: JewishRighter
So, given the vehemence and the nastiness of the opposition, it is hard not to feel that there is some undercurrent working here.

Precisely my point.

I have no dog in this fight, but I see FReepers of high standing and long reputation arguing like petulant little girls when it comes to Pollard.

My sincere question is: why?

70 posted on 12/23/2010 1:55:02 PM PST by papertyger
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It is amazing the number of folks here supporting a convicted US spy, claim that all the evidence against him is false, and despite not having access to classified government documents on the case — riducule US government official who have.

For those who claim Pollard was not paid for his crimes, read the indictment.

1) Monies received by Pollard and his wife $45,000
2) Bank account opened for Pollard by Israeli agents Rafi Etian and Joseph “Yossi” Yagur - $30,000 deposit, first of ten for each year.

This does not include the payments in diamond to Pollard.

http://irmep.org/ila/pollard/06041986_pollard_indictment.pdf


71 posted on 12/23/2010 1:55:31 PM PST by WaterBoard
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To: Lurker
Still got nothing. I thought so.

"Already did that about 30 years ago sonny boy."

Let's see, about 30 years ago...you must have been doing dangerous frontline duty, where was it that our military was fighting those hellish battles in 1980? Oh, yeah, nowhere, unless, of course you were involved here:

Yeah, that makes sense, crashing helicopters in the desert is about your speed, though since you're still wasting oxygen, you must have been involved in the very, very dangerous planning.

What a windbag.

Somehow I'll try to sleep nights.

But not for long...tick, tick, tick...

72 posted on 12/23/2010 1:57:44 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: wideminded

Thanks for the post.

From my previous readings, I had believed that Pollard’s disclosures of info were related only to info that he thought the US was withholding from Israel. In addition, I was not aware that the Israelis “re-marketed” that intelligence for their own purposes. I’ll have to read up more on this case.

If what you say is true (and I have no reason to doubt you), I can’t but help wonder why Pollard didn’t get life in prison - just like Ames and Hanssen? It sounds like he should have.


73 posted on 12/23/2010 1:59:21 PM PST by MplsSteve (Governor Mark Dayton? That's so incredibly alarming, don't you think?)
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To: WaterBoard
For those who claim Pollard was not paid for his crimes, read the indictment.

Who said he wasn't paid?

The question here is: If he did it for money, why didn't he just sell what he knew about the Israelis to the Arabs?

74 posted on 12/23/2010 1:59:36 PM PST by papertyger
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To: WaterBoard

Not guilty. The only thing I’m arguing is, under all the circumstances, including comparisons with other spy sentences, paroles, etc., clemency is the right thing to do.

Remember, there’s 2 sides to the coin of the classified information, neither side of this argument really knows whether it justifies such harsh treatment, nor do we know the veracity of the information in it.


75 posted on 12/23/2010 2:07:46 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: JewishRighter
Not guilty. The only thing I’m arguing is, under all the circumstances, including comparisons with other spy sentences, paroles, etc., clemency is the right thing to do.


I disagree

I believe people who betray their country and give away classified data they swore to protect which results in the death of Americans and damages the national security deserve to be executed.

Pollard got lucky with a life sentence.

What's going on is a disinformation campaign to get spy back to his spy handlers and avoid justice.

I am not surprised there are members here choosing a convicted spy's welfare over their own country.
76 posted on 12/23/2010 2:20:31 PM PST by WaterBoard
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To: JewishRighter

27 years and 2 months a**hole.


77 posted on 12/23/2010 2:52:04 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: HearMe

-—dittos-—


78 posted on 12/23/2010 2:53:16 PM PST by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confucius)
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To: AdmSmith; Arthur Wildfire! March; Berosus; bigheadfred; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; Delacon; ...
Why was this man forced to spend seven years in solitary?
The question is, why haven't the terrorists detained during the WOT kept in solitary all this time? They'd have to be wet-vacced up by now. Thanks TPOOH.


79 posted on 12/23/2010 6:28:30 PM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: MplsSteve

The traitorous little weasel Pollard also sold classified information to Pakistan and South Africa, and got caught when he tried to sell secrets to Australia. The Australian officer thought Pollard was so brazen that it must be some kind of a sting, so he ratted him out. To Pollard, Israel was nothing more than another buyer with cash.

Pollard was just a greedy piece of scum who took money from whoever would give it to him. If he had a connection to the Arabs and thought they’d give him more money, then he would have sold information to them. I read somewhere he may have had a cocaine habit to support.


80 posted on 12/23/2010 7:10:32 PM PST by Lancey Howard
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To: SunkenCiv
I wish people would stop wasting time of Pollard. Doing so is worse than distracting, it is damaging. Let's assume that Pollard is the victim of a smear campaign and was blamed for the actions of Aldrich Ames in an CIA/FBI cover up (I happen to believe this.) If so, then he did what he did to protect Israel from Iraq's nuclear program. Today, Israel faces an Iranian nuclear program. Is it wise to waste what little friendship Israel has with the Obama regime on Pollard, when Ahmadenjhad is building nukes? Is it wise to bring up the issue of dual-loyalty at a time when Israel and America need Americans to press Obama and Congress?

It seems to me that Pollard's supporters are fools, seeing only Pollard in jail, and ignoring the goal. If Pollard is released and Tel Aviv and New York are nuked, what profit is there for Pollard, Jews and Americans? Pollard's supporters see him as a martyr? Fine. Then make sure his martyrdom is not for nothing, and stop undermining Israel by bringing him up.

81 posted on 12/23/2010 8:49:05 PM PST by rmlew (You want change? Vote for the most conservative electable in your state or district.)
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To: dennisw

His “loyalty” is why the CIA/FBI were suspicious of allowing Jews into the ranks, or at least the official given reason. But then again here you come all but goosestepping your racial loyalty over this poor old hick who dares to speak his voice to power. You know better than that.


82 posted on 12/24/2010 7:09:58 AM PST by junta (S.C.U.M. = State Controlled Unreliable Media)
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To: WaterBoard

So, no doubt, you feel the same way about the spies who were convicted of espionage, including espionage for a foreign power, and received mush more moderate sentences and parole. They should have been executed.


83 posted on 12/24/2010 7:27:20 AM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: Lurker

“27 years and 2 months a**hole.”

What a keen intellect. You really got me there. /s

I’m researching the daring missions you were on in the years up to 1983 and I’ll get back to you. Just wait right there.


84 posted on 12/24/2010 7:29:49 AM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: rmlew

Well put. My view is, Pollard plays the role of pawn in this; there’s no realistic chance of his release. Of course, if he had spied for *any* other country, Zero would release him because Zero undermines the US at every chance.


85 posted on 12/24/2010 7:59:48 AM PST by SunkenCiv (The 2nd Amendment follows right behind the 1st because some people are hard of hearing.)
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To: junta

Wow you play the victim so well!!! You must be a Muslim. A Muslim oppressed by the big bad Jooos

Think of it! 14 million Jews control this planet. That is what you Muslims and other nutters think. Now does that say Jews are supermen or that the rest of the planet are abject fools? Or maybe both? Maybe you can elaborate


86 posted on 12/24/2010 1:51:02 PM PST by dennisw (- - - -He who does not economize will have to agonize - - - - - Confucius)
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To: JewishRighter

Please do. I’ll wait.


87 posted on 12/24/2010 10:36:19 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: JewishRighter

Figure it out yet, Scooter?


88 posted on 12/24/2010 10:40:47 PM PST by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: junta

Suicide by Muslim inmates..


89 posted on 12/25/2010 1:55:52 AM PST by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: dennisw

You are lapsing into ignorant bigotry, good day. I’m done I am going to enjoy Xmas with my family if that doesn’t upset you too much.


90 posted on 12/25/2010 6:20:21 AM PST by junta (S.C.U.M. = State Controlled Unreliable Media)
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To: Lurker

“Please do. I’ll wait.”

OK. You keep waiting.


91 posted on 12/25/2010 5:53:58 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: Lurker

“Figure it out yet, Scooter?”

Figured it out a long time ago, Gomer.


92 posted on 12/25/2010 5:55:38 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: JewishRighter

Yes, I do.

However, you are allowing your religion to get in the way of being an American, IMHO.

I could care less if a Christian spy is executed for betraying his country.

However, you support a man for betraying his country simply because of his religion.

That is sad.


93 posted on 12/26/2010 4:04:40 PM PST by WaterBoard
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To: WaterBoard

Let’s say for the sake of argument that my level of interest in this case is greater because of religious affinity and that I am biased.

Does that mean the points I might make in favor of clemency are invalid on that basis alone, even if they are factually and logically valid? You seem reasonable enough to concede that that doesn’t really make sense.

So yes, perhaps I am taking the trouble to argue the case because of religious affinity, but I will never insult you or any other FReeper by making spurious arguments just because of the defendant’s religion. And please remember, my interest is not to excuse or justify what he did. Only that 25 years is (more than) enough for what he did.

BTW, you should know that there have been cases of Jewish people committing crimes where I have been fiercely arguing that they should get the maximum punishment BECAUSE they were Jews. Madoff is one that quickly comes to mind. He brought terrible shame on the Jewish people and desecrated G-d’s name in the world, one of the worst transgressions possible according the Judaism. On top of that, he fueled the ancient fires of hatred for Jews as cunning, devious and dishonest people. Add to that, his crime was hideous with no mitigating circumstances for leniency.

I am a very loyal, patriotic American. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with trying to help someone who shares your religion, ethnicity or other affiliation from taking a special interest in members of their group as long as you remain intellectually honest.


94 posted on 12/26/2010 5:56:20 PM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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To: JewishRighter

That’s where you and I part. I don’t believe in Clemency for betraying your country.

Traitors like Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, and especially unrepentant spies who once caught still try to leak intel from prison deserve the death sentence.

They put my life and everyone in the USA’s life in danger.

You don’t get a second chance for something like that.

Otherwise, if future spies knew the punishment would be light, they would be willing to take the risk.


95 posted on 12/27/2010 5:00:12 AM PST by WaterBoard
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OK. I hear you. That’s a legitimate position, but it is not the law of the land. As it stands now, clemency, parole and probation are available means of adjusting penalties the circumstances of the case. Even for espionage. Moreover, the the statutory scheme under which Pollard was sentenced has explicit different penalties depending on the specifics of the crime: whether the defendant spied for hostile or friendly powers, eg. as was the case with Pollard.

America is a Judeo-Christian country. We take into account differences in the degree of criminal acts, balancing justice and penalties to fit the crime. In appropriate circumstances, we even revisit justice, commuting sentences, granting clemency and even pardons. Even though I agree with your notion of the deterent effect of harsh penalties, there is simply no one-size-fits-all system. Without personal insult, I suggest this is the definition of a civilized system of justice, the true meaning of the rule of law.

I respect your position in the sense that you are obviously motivated by your fierce patriotism. But I respectfully submit that even patriotism can be taken too far.


96 posted on 12/27/2010 6:42:50 AM PST by JewishRighter ( Multiculturalism is killing us.)
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