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Extraterrestrials, American Exceptionalism, and the Left-Right Gap (Dems tend to believe in ET)
Townhall ^ | 12/27/2010 | Michael Medved

Posted on 12/29/2010 10:10:06 AM PST by SeekAndFind

It’s no surprise that liberals and conservatives see our world in starkly different terms, but they also display contrasting views toward other worlds, generally disagreeing about the possibilities of intelligent life elsewhere in the universe.

These clashing opinions on extraterrestrials amount to more than a trivial split on an arcane topic; they connect, in fact, both logically and emotionally to big conflicts over worldview, culture, politics and America’s role in history.

In Colorado, these conflicts erupted in a recent battle over a proposed Denver commission to investigate visitations from alien life forms. Initiative 300 won enough signatures to qualify for the ballot in November 2010 but lost in a landslide, with conservatives leading the derision of the “ET Initiative,” as a loony waste of taxpayer money. The chief support for “greater transparency” regarding sightings and encounters came from the city’s Bohemian left, with advocates proudly citing the interest in flying saucers from liberal icons like Jimmy Carter and John Podesta, Bill Clinton’s former chief of staff.

Polls show that Americans remain closely divided on attitudes toward extraterrestrials, with a 2008 Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll reporting 56% who believe it is “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that intelligent life has developed in other worlds. Self-described Democrats (according to the same survey) are far more likely to say they have personally seen “visitors from another world” than are their Republican counterparts, who remain distinctly skeptical.

These differences stem in part from religious convictions, with conservatives far more likely to uphold traditional approaches to the Bible and organized faith. While nothing in Scripture explicitly denies the possibility of life in distant galaxies, the Biblical account of directed creation makes it far easier to accept the notion that this small, inhabited planet is alone in the universe.

Liberals, on the other hand, profess wider acceptance of the idea that earthly life emerged through random forces and happy accidents; therefore, the existence of stars and potential planets into the billions suggests that that similar coincidences would produce advanced life forms somewhere else.

The differing views on extraterrestrial intelligence stem from a core argument about the presence (or absence) of higher purpose, of supernatural direction in our existence on earth.

That same dispute divides liberals and conservatives regarding the rise and the role of the United States. On the right, there’s a much stronger tendency to credit the notion of America as a “heaven rescued land” (in the words of The Star Spangled Banner), and to see evidence of Divine favor in the emergence of the world’s most powerful civilization in a corner of North America which, a mere 400 years ago, counted as perhaps the least developed portion of the planet.

For liberals, however, the idea that God decreed prosperity and prominence for the United States smacks of swaggering jingoism, and imperialist arrogance. They are far more likely to see America’s success as the result of good luck, or even rapacity and ruthlessness, rather than the consequence of Providential intervention.

One of the moment’s most emotional debates centers on the related notion of “American exceptionalism”: does our country represent a uniquely blessed, beneficial development in human history, or a flawed nation state like many others, displaying a maddening mix of admirable and appalling characteristics? A recent Gallup poll asked respondents whether other nations of the world should follow America’s example: Republicans overwhelming said “yes” while Democrats split evenly on the proposition.

Conservatives felt outraged when President Obama declared that he believes in American exceptionalism only in the same sense “the Brits believe in British exceptionalism and the Greeks believe in Greek exceptionalism.” As Sarah Palin sneers in her new book, America By Heart, “Which is to say, he doesn’t believe in American exceptionalism at all. He seems to think it is just a kind of irrational prejudice in favor of our way of life.”

While neither Obama nor Palin has ever provided definitive discourse on their view of life on other worlds, it’s easy to imagine the president maintaining a more open attitude than the former Alaska governor. If you believe that the United States is utterly unique in human history, an unprecedented and potently purposeful experiment under higher power protection, then it follows that earth itself enjoys similarly singular status, freakishly favored within a lonely universe. On the other hand, the suspicion that America counts as only the latest in a long succession of rising and falling world powers can easily co-exist with assumptions that our planet joins countless other centers of intelligent life in a teeming cosmos.

A liberal slant in politics or policy doesn’t make you an automatic believer in extraterrestrial visitors, any more than a conservative worldview compels the insistence that human beings will never discover other-worldly counterparts. But an impassioned affirmation of American exceptionalism naturally connects to comparable assumptions of earthly exceptionalism, and helps define one of the most significant but least noted divisions defining the current gulf between right and left.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: extraterrestrials; left; liberals; right; ufo
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1 posted on 12/29/2010 10:10:09 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/


2 posted on 12/29/2010 10:11:14 AM PST by US Navy Vet
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To: SeekAndFind

More here:

http://collidinguniverses.blogspot.com/search?q=extraterrestrials

Do you have to be an American liberal to believe in extraterrestrials?

Yes, folks, I thought this was Hoax News at work too.

But Michael Medved reports,

These clashing opinions on extraterrestrials amount to more than a trivial split on an arcane topic; they connect, in fact, both logically and emotionally to big conflicts over worldview, culture, politics and America’s role in history.

In Colorado, these conflicts erupted in a recent battle over a proposed Denver commission to investigate visitations from alien life forms. Initiative 300 won enough signatures to qualify for the ballot in November 2010 but lost in a landslide, with conservatives leading the derision of the “ET Initiative,” as a loony waste of taxpayer money. The chief support for “greater transparency” regarding sightings and encounters came from the city’s Bohemian left, with advocates proudly citing the interest in flying saucers from liberal icons like Jimmy Carter and John Podesta, Bill Clinton’s former chief of staff.

Polls show that Americans remain closely divided on attitudes toward extraterrestrials, with a 2008 Scripps Howard/Ohio University poll reporting 56% who believe it is “very likely” or “somewhat likely” that intelligent life has developed in other worlds. Self-described Democrats (according to the same survey) are far more likely to say they have personally seen “visitors from another world” than are their Republican counterparts, who remain distinctly skeptical.


3 posted on 12/29/2010 10:11:59 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

Well I am not a dem and I kow there are UFO’s.


4 posted on 12/29/2010 10:12:28 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: SeekAndFind

Anyone else find the rash or recent articles (i.e., liberal vs. conservative; thick brains, dna traits etc..) a little curious?


5 posted on 12/29/2010 10:14:08 AM PST by Michael Barnes (Guilty of being White.)
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To: stockpirate

I believe in Aliens, I just don’t believe they’re visiting us.

There’s a pretty wide range of thought on the matter from the entire political spectrum.


6 posted on 12/29/2010 10:14:34 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SeekAndFind
*shrug* Well, this conservative hopes there is intelligent life somewhere in the universe!
7 posted on 12/29/2010 10:15:27 AM PST by null and void (We are now in day 706 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: null and void

I’m not counting on Michael Medved to find it.


8 posted on 12/29/2010 10:16:26 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: SeekAndFind
Statement: "Self-described Democrats (according to the same survey) are far more likely to say they have personally seen “visitors from another world” than are their Republican counterparts, who remain distinctly skeptical."

Response: They voted a person from another "world" into the office of president.

9 posted on 12/29/2010 10:16:55 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: stockpirate
UFO=UNIDENTIFIED flying? object

I once believed the hype and b.s. of many in the UFO business,and they turned out to be charlatans and oddballs making a living from sales of books to the curious.

Many UFO reports are made by a people unfamiliar with the wonders of nature in the sky,and I suspect many others are reports of actual craft produced right here on Earth by the Air Force and Rockwell,etc.

10 posted on 12/29/2010 10:17:23 AM PST by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
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To: cripplecreek

So, if one assumes they are around then isn’t safe to assume they land?


11 posted on 12/29/2010 10:17:35 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: SeekAndFind
The odds are overwhelming that there are others living in the universe(s).

I hope they are smarter than we.

12 posted on 12/29/2010 10:18:27 AM PST by Glenn (iamtheresistance.org)
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To: SeekAndFind

I tend to believe there are aliens. I seriously doubt we have been visited by them, nor do I believe we will ever have interactions with them.


13 posted on 12/29/2010 10:18:33 AM PST by Psycho_Bunny (Hail To The Fail-In-Chief)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
Conservative can ENJOY a fairy tale.

Liberals BELIEVE in fairy tales.

14 posted on 12/29/2010 10:18:45 AM PST by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
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To: hoosierham

Google UK and UFO released report, read it then get back to me.

BTW- it mentions a UFO as large as an aircraft carrier, but what do pilots of F15’s know?

Also read about the moon mission where they reported being followed to the moon and watched while on the surface.

But what do they know they were just the best of the best from America.


15 posted on 12/29/2010 10:20:54 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: hoosierham

Also google UFO 1952 washington dc


16 posted on 12/29/2010 10:21:40 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: stockpirate

Its a mighty big universe. Being “around” might put them 1000 light years away.


17 posted on 12/29/2010 10:22:43 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Psycho_Bunny

Exactly my point. There’s a wide range of thought on the issue.


18 posted on 12/29/2010 10:23:49 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: cripplecreek

Google ufo wasington dc 1952 and tell me what you think.


19 posted on 12/29/2010 10:24:54 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: SeekAndFind
One of the moment’s most emotional debates centers on the related notion of “American exceptionalism”: does our country represent a uniquely blessed, beneficial development in human history, or a flawed nation state like many others, displaying a maddening mix of admirable and appalling characteristics?

What an idiotic straw man definition.

Of course America is a "a flawed nation state like many others, displaying a maddening mix of admirable and appalling characteristics."

The question is not one of whether American history, actions and values has been perfect and of unmixed goodness, it is one of the net effect and value of America as compared to the net effect and value of other societies/nations. While both are mixed, 70% good vs. 30% bad is significant when compared to 30% good vs 70% bad.

IMO, by that definition America is quite exceptional.

This "there is no black and white, only shades of gray" argument is a common one on the left, and is fallacious. While it is technically correct when dealing with any human activity, the purpose of making the argument is to imply, without saying so explicitly, that there is no real difference between dark gray and light gray, which is just stupid.

20 posted on 12/29/2010 10:24:56 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: hoosierham

Not only do liberals BELIEVE in fairy tales they ACT on their beliefs and get Conservative taxpayers to pay for whatever the liberal fancies.


21 posted on 12/29/2010 10:30:39 AM PST by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Psycho_Bunny
I tend to believe there are aliens. ...me too. I'd be more surprised if there weren't.

I seriously doubt we have been visited by them ...me too. If nothing else than the general vastness of space prevents a simple hop-skip-and a jump over to the nearest planet / star.

nor do I believe we will ever have interactions with them ...me too. IF they're smart enough to overcome the hurdles of distance and time, then I'd imagine they'd not be interested in anything we might have to contribute. For instance, I'd imagine that you've not tried talking to the ants in your driveway anytime recently. I know that I haven't. :-)

Nice to be on the same wavelength as someone. lol!

22 posted on 12/29/2010 10:32:32 AM PST by wbill
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To: SeekAndFind

I really hope there is intelligent life in space... because there sure as hell isn’t any here on Earth!


23 posted on 12/29/2010 10:35:34 AM PST by ZirconEncrustedTweezers (Regulation without representation is tyranny.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Well, it would explain a lot if Nancy Pelosi had been abducted by space aliens and subjected to an extreme physical exam. And she can't wait for it to happen again.
24 posted on 12/29/2010 10:36:28 AM PST by colorado tanker
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To: stockpirate
So then there is a giant conspiracy involvinh tens of thousands of government for decades keeping the truth from Earth people?

Funny the people(Democrats) who belive in UFOs being space aliens also belive barack obama is a legitimate natural-born American citizen.

Right now it seems the obama conspiracy is more damaging to the U.S.

25 posted on 12/29/2010 10:38:17 AM PST by hoosierham (Waddaya mean Freedom isn't free ?;will you take a credit card?)
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To: stockpirate
Right on stockpirate. I know for a fact you are correct.
26 posted on 12/29/2010 10:39:00 AM PST by badgerlandjim
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To: SeekAndFind

Dems???

Hell, we have a whole UFO-rapture-ready contingent here on FR! (We’re just one more UFO or earthquake away from the rapture!)


27 posted on 12/29/2010 10:39:59 AM PST by Larry Lucido
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To: SeekAndFind
The differing views on extraterrestrial intelligence stem from a core argument about the presence (or absence) of higher purpose, of supernatural direction in our existence on earth.

I propose another root cause for the difference in the belief in extraterrestrial intelligence and specifically alien visitations. There is likely a better understanding of fundamental principles of math & science on the right as a lot of your lefties were educated in liberal arts colleges where math stops at Algebra II and Intro to Geometry.

As a conservative with an engineering background I think I have a better grasp of the technical problems associated with long-duration space flights. While I allow for the possibility of a great leap in scientific insight that might invalidate my opinion, I think that it's exceedingly unlikely that UFO's represent alien spacecraft visiting our planet. You're average Lefty believes that the oil industry has been hiding technology (at Area 51, no doubt) about an automobile engine that will get 100 mpg on tap water. It is this ignorance that has allowed our energy policies to become badly distorted.

28 posted on 12/29/2010 10:45:06 AM PST by Tallguy (Received a fine from the NFL for a helmet-to-helmet hit.)
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To: wbill

In recent years I’ve arrived at the decision that we’re better off not finding “intelligent” life.

For a race wishing to move beyond their home planet, intelligent life is a horrible find. A planet with intelligent life would be a planet off limits to settlement.

What we need is life we can eat, air we can breathe, and water we can drink.


29 posted on 12/29/2010 10:45:44 AM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: cripplecreek
What we need is life we can eat, air we can breathe, and water we can drink

Yep. Freeman Dyson had much the opinion as yours, except in reverse. Google "Dyson Sphere".

Roughly, his thought was we'd not heard from other lifeforms because they're all buttoned up and hiding from the REALLY big bad guys in the universe.

Not a happy thought, but just as valid as all the others on this thread.

30 posted on 12/29/2010 10:51:00 AM PST by wbill
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To: hoosierham

Yes, you are correct on both points, we have a winner.

As you well know all of your statments are true.


31 posted on 12/29/2010 10:53:06 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: badgerlandjim

So you know I am not a dem? Thanks,


32 posted on 12/29/2010 10:55:42 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: stockpirate

Can you provide a piece of one?


33 posted on 12/29/2010 10:56:37 AM PST by onedoug
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To: SeekAndFind

How can anyone look at James Carville and NOT believe in aliens?


34 posted on 12/29/2010 10:57:32 AM PST by Islander7 (If you want to anger conservatives, lie to them. If you want to anger liberals, tell them the truth.)
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To: Tallguy
You're average Lefty believes that the oil industry has been hiding technology (at Area 51, no doubt) about an automobile engine that will get 100 mpg on tap water

I'd not even give them that much credit.

Figure that these are people who tout totally impractical boondoggles such as solar and wind power, with no understanding at all of how electricity is generated, how it gets to their house, or what happens when they turn something on. "The three prong thingie needs to match up with the holes in the wall" is the extent of their understanding.

For instance, I've been looking forward to what California's electric car mandate will do to their already overtaxed-and-prone-to-brownouts grid. Especially, when they're not allowed to add stable sources of power (think coal, gas, nuke...."wind" doesn't count) to the grid to help.

35 posted on 12/29/2010 10:58:33 AM PST by wbill
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To: SeekAndFind

While I do think that this Colorado initiative to create a panel dedicated to greeting extraterrestial life is an absurd waste of tax dollars and I absolutely would of voted against it, I do tend to believe in ‘Ancient Astronaut’ theory.

While I of course do not have all of the answers I find ancient works such as the pyramids and other megalithic works, the Holy Bible and other ancient texts, and other ancient anomolies to lead towards alien visitation as being the most simplistic and logical answer.

Honestly I think that you will find a fairly equal share of conservatives and leftists who believe that this planet was visited by some other life form but you will still find the most kooks on the left by far who will exaggerate their knowledge on the issue.


36 posted on 12/29/2010 10:59:29 AM PST by TheBigIf
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To: onedoug

Stupid question doesn’t deserve an answer, but google ufo washington dc 1952 and read some of the other google terms then decide or hide for yourself.


37 posted on 12/29/2010 11:01:37 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: onedoug

Here you go moroon.

‘Mile-wide UFO’ spotted by British airline pilot
Last updated at 15:52pm on 22.06.07
Add your view

One of the largest UFOs ever seen has been observed by the crew and passengers of an airliner over the Channel Islands.

An official air-miss report on the incident several weeks ago appears in Pilot magazine.

Aurigny Airlines captain Ray Bowyer, 50, flying close to Alderney first spotted the object, described as “a cigar-shaped brilliant white light”.

Aurigny Airlines captain Ray Bowyer, 50, described what he thought to be a UFO as ‘a cigar-shaped brilliant white light’, similar to the image supplied by Dennis Plunket of the British Flying Saucer bureau

As the plane got closer the captain viewed it through binoculars and said: “It was a very sharp, thin yellow object with a green area.

“It was 2,000ft up and stationary. I thought it was about 10 miles away, although I later realised it was approximately 40 miles from us. At first, I thought it was the size of a [Boeing] 737.

“But it must have been much bigger because of how far away it was. It could have been as much as a mile wide.”

Continuing his approach to Guernsey, Bowyer then spied a “second identical object further to the west”.

He said: “It was exactly the same but looked smaller because it was further away. It was closer to Guernsey. I can’t explain it. This was clearly visual for about nine minutes.

“I’m certainly not saying that it was something of another world. All I’m saying is that I have never seen anything like it before in all my years of flying.”

The sightings were confirmed by passengers Kate and John Russell. John, 74, said: “I saw an orange light. It was like an elongated oval.”

The sightings were also confirmed by an unnamed pilot with the Blue Islands airline.

The Civil Aviation Authority safety notice states that a Tri-Lander aircraft flying close to Alderney spotted the object.

“Certain parts of the report have not been published. I cannot say why,” said a senior CAA source.

Earlier this year, however, the MOD declared its intentions to open its UFO files to the public

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23401615-mile-wide-ufo-spotted-by-british-airline-pilot.do


38 posted on 12/29/2010 11:04:28 AM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: stockpirate
I ain't a Dem, either. I saw a UFO up-close (100-150 feet) in 1978. T’warnt swamp gas nor mis-identification of a planet, star, or any type of usual aerial vehicle. I know what I saw, and what I saw could not be identified by me as anything one would normally see. It was unexplainable. That makes it an Unidentified Flying Object by definition. Flame away, folks, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it
39 posted on 12/29/2010 11:09:03 AM PST by badgerlandjim
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To: SeekAndFind

Regardless of one’s opinions about UFOs, from a quality of writing perspective I have rarely seen a more desperately contrived argument and article... /g


40 posted on 12/29/2010 11:34:12 AM PST by tarheelswamprat
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To: badgerlandjim

Well no flames from this guy. GOD bless you for telling it like it is!!!

“All will be reveiled”.


41 posted on 12/29/2010 12:13:11 PM PST by stockpirate (Sen. Mitch McConnel (R) has betrayed the Nov. 2, 2010 voters w/his tax bill!)
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To: onedoug; stockpirate; Quix

Dr. Jesse Marcel Jr., (also a well known freeper), held a piece of the I-beam like wreckage that his father had brought home from the Roswell crash in 1947. (Jesse Jr. was 11 or 12 years old in 1947.)

http://marceljr.com/about.html


42 posted on 12/29/2010 12:25:06 PM PST by Las Vegas Dave (To anger a Conservative, tell him a lie. To anger a Liberal, tell him the truth.)
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To: Sherman Logan
Of course America is a "a flawed nation state like many others, displaying a maddening mix of admirable and appalling characteristics." The question is not one of whether American history, actions and values has been perfect and of unmixed goodness, it is one of the net effect and value of America as compared to the net effect and value of other societies/nations.... This "there is no black and white, only shades of gray" argument is a common one on the left, and is fallacious. While it is technically correct when dealing with any human activity, the purpose of making the argument is to imply, without saying so explicitly, that there is no real difference between dark gray and light gray, which is just stupid.

Well said.

43 posted on 12/29/2010 1:21:22 PM PST by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: stockpirate; badgerlandjim
I'll explain via FR PM
44 posted on 12/29/2010 1:30:16 PM PST by ASA Vet (Natural-born citizens, are those born in the country, of parents who are citizens. De Vattel)
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To: hoosierham; stockpirate
Funny the people(Democrats) who belive in UFOs being space aliens also belive barack obama is a legitimate natural-born American citizen.

Hoosier, you're being manipulated into pitting something entirely apolitical against human nature, and allowing it to divide you from your allies.

Michael Medved, first of all, is hardly "conservative" himself. Second, you would be surprised and shocked at the reality of the UFO thing, which is that it transcends politics and has some very heavy hitters on its side, such as Mercury 7 astronaut and Christian Gordon Cooper, who matter-of-factly makes no bones about it in his autobiography, though little of the book is about UFOs.

The whole UFO thing is emotional and gut-pitting, so somebody wants YOU to equate anyone who "believes" in UFOs with your enemy. It is a mistake to do so; it ONLY serves to divide.

Stay frosty.

45 posted on 12/29/2010 1:31:56 PM PST by Finny ("Raise hell. Vote smart." -- Ted Nugent)
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To: Las Vegas Dave; stockpirate

Yeah? Where is this so-called ¨I-beam¨?

And without calling you any names, stockpirate, where are the pieces?


46 posted on 12/29/2010 2:20:07 PM PST by onedoug
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Comment #47 Removed by Moderator

To: stockpirate
I kow there are UFO’s.

Yes, I have seen what appeared to be objects, which seemed to be flying, which I could not identify.

These see to be, therefore, by definition: Unidentifed Flying Objects (UFO).

Doesn't mean they have anything to do with ET, Aliens, Little Green Men, Greys, Men In Black, Bug Eyed Monsters, or any other such ... just that I couldn't identify them.

48 posted on 12/29/2010 2:43:51 PM PST by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: SeekAndFind
Back in the '60s there was a professor from some university in Arizona, whose name escapes me at the moment. He had taken a sabbatical to investigate UFOs, and concluded Earth was being visited by aliens. He was to give a talk at the Pentagon. I was stationed in DC at the time, and wangled an invitation. As a Major, I was seated in the back row, while the Colonels and Generals were up front.

At the end of his talk, one of the Generals asked, "If we're being visited by aliens, how come they never crash? How come we never find any wreckage?"

With one of the most charming smiles I've ever seen on a human face, the professor answered, "Maybe their Zero Defects Program really works."

49 posted on 12/29/2010 4:46:03 PM PST by JoeFromSidney
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To: onedoug

Still addicted to those

TYPE II ERRORS, it seems.


50 posted on 12/29/2010 8:00:29 PM PST by Quix (Times are a changin' INSURE you have believed in your heart & confessed Jesus as Lord Come NtheFlesh)
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