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Oil refineries sue EPA over ethanol plan
GOPUSA ^ | January 4, 2011 | Ken Thomas (Associated Press)

Posted on 01/04/2011 8:03:13 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks

WASHINGTON (AP) — A ruling by the Obama administration allowing the sale of gasoline containing 15 percent ethanol is running into legal hurdles from trade groups opposing the plan.

The National Petrochemical and Refiners Association sued the Environmental Protection Agency on Monday over the decision to allow the sale of gasoline containing higher blends of corn-based ethanol, the second major group to protest the ruling.

The Obama administration said in October that gas stations could start selling the ethanol blend for vehicles built since the 2007 model year, increasing it from the current blend of 10 percent ethanol.

(Excerpt) Read more at gopusa.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: biofuels; boats; cattle; congress; corn; corruption; crude; drilling; e10; e15; e85; energy; enginedamage; engines; epa; ethanol; farmers; farming; fishing; food; gas; gasoline; government; inflation; lobbists; lobby; meat; nascar; obama; oil; outboards; refinery; voters
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1 posted on 01/04/2011 8:03:17 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks
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To: thackney

PING!


2 posted on 01/04/2011 8:03:45 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (up)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Just wondering, and I admit I am no petroleum expert here, but how does adding ethanol to gasoline affect it’s combustion efficiency? Does it even run better, because if it does not, it’s a practical reason not to up the blend of ethanol within gasoline.

However, either replacing gasoline with natural gas or some other source would be a major overhaul of the infrastructure, and would need some serious citizen petitioning in order to work.


3 posted on 01/04/2011 8:07:00 PM PST by Morpheus2009
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Glenn Beck tonight talking about the oil companies.

“Fight back dammit”


4 posted on 01/04/2011 8:07:33 PM PST by cripplecreek (Remember the River Raisin! (look it up))
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Rino Senator Grassely is so happy he’s abusing himself.


5 posted on 01/04/2011 8:07:33 PM PST by org.whodat
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Good idea! Let’s wreck ALL of the internal combustion engines in the USA that haven’t already been wrecked by 10% laffanol.

Thank God there are fuel stations in my area that sell unadulterated premium GASoline. I have not had any problems with my ATV, Chainsaw, or snowblower engines since changing over to PURE GAS.

Of course, I expect PURE GAS to be outlawed soon and I may have to drive all the way into a northern country nearby to get the real stuff. I don’t want to mention any name of that northern country because I doubt if any of the EPA morons could figure it our if I keep it a secret...


6 posted on 01/04/2011 8:09:22 PM PST by 43north (BHO: 50% white, 50% black, 100% red)
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To: Morpheus2009

Ethanol is an environmental disaster. Corn is soaking up precious underground water and the fuel to farm and fertilize it is unbelievable. Then the crap eats up your engine because there is WATER IN ETHANOL!! Stop this madness!!


7 posted on 01/04/2011 8:10:51 PM PST by Benchim
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To: Morpheus2009

Ethanol reduces the combustion potential of gasoline. It also can increase the possibility of engine damage due to lower combustion temperatures in the cylinders.


8 posted on 01/04/2011 8:10:55 PM PST by CSI007
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

So what interest do the oil producers have in this other than the fact that they want you to buy gasoline instead of ethanol? How else are they being hurt by it?


9 posted on 01/04/2011 8:15:33 PM PST by Brilliant
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To: Brilliant

Any time the government mandates changes in the formulation of fuel that is not scientifically supported it means that somebody is going to get rich (the corn producing farmers and their congresscritters like the new SD-RINO Kristi Noeme) and somebody is going to get screwed (the American consumers of that fuel).

The oil companies don’t have much to do with it. They will produce the fuel and the governement will mandate its adulteration into something that is harmful. Do you remember MTBE?


10 posted on 01/04/2011 8:22:13 PM PST by 43north (BHO: 50% white, 50% black, 100% red)
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To: org.whodat

I’m sure that Mr. Ed is indeed happy.


11 posted on 01/04/2011 8:30:28 PM PST by Tolerance Sucks Rocks (up)
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To: Morpheus2009

It’s less efficient and it will ruin your engine. Other than that, it’s awesome!


12 posted on 01/04/2011 8:35:15 PM PST by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: 43north

This is all due to Congressional mandate for a set amount of ethanol to be consumed.

The only way the idiotic mandate can be met is to jack up the ethanol percentage in the gasoline.

The first step would be to dump these idiotic mandates and stop subsidizing ethanol to the tune of billions of dollars for a motor fuel or additive that has been proven to destroy engines, increase ozone pollution, and to say nothing of the ridiculous amount of energy and crop land it takes to produce feedstock (corn) for the process. It’s also less efficient than straight gasoline thereby requiring more to be consumed to do the same amount of work.


13 posted on 01/04/2011 8:35:31 PM PST by headstamp 2 ("My Boss is a Jewish Carpenter")
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To: Brilliant

Additional varieties drive up inventory costs. Plus if this ethanol mix is even more hydrophylic, it may damage their own equipment.


14 posted on 01/04/2011 8:39:33 PM PST by sgtyork (The secret of happiness is freedom, and the secret of freedom, courage. Thucydides)
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To: Morpheus2009

answer: price up, mileage down


15 posted on 01/04/2011 8:39:44 PM PST by NonValueAdded (Palin 2012: don't retreat, just reload)
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To: Republic of Texas

I understand that it’s inefficient and it ruins the engine but I’m sure that’s not how the government sold this crap. What was their excuse, if you’re aware?


16 posted on 01/04/2011 8:49:25 PM PST by parisa
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Ethanol doesn’t work and the EPA knows it, They are just stealing money.


17 posted on 01/04/2011 8:54:16 PM PST by freekitty (Give me back my conservative vote; then find me a real conservative to vote for)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Is there any gasoline oput there without ethanol?

Please Post the names.

Ethanol has destroyed my leaf blower and outboard motor. I need to find where to buy gas without it. If it costs more that will be more than made up by the 10% drop I get in gas mileage.


18 posted on 01/04/2011 9:05:10 PM PST by Venturer
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To: headstamp 2

Folks, not only does Ethanol cause rust because it combines with water, it has lower combustion temperatures, low energy, reduces mileage and cruds up the engine. Don’t use it in your small engines especially since it attracts water and will seriously jack up your carburetor.

Adding insult to injury it competes for animal food and to make matters that much worse... dumbo and his demorat lackeys have mandated that all feed for livestock, chickens and such have an added tax... TO PAY THE ETHANOL SUBSIDY!

This is all true, I am in the oil business and the family is in the poultry business. Poultry raisers are expecting another round of increases in prices to cover this tax on grain.


19 posted on 01/04/2011 9:22:16 PM PST by Sequoyah101 (Half of the population is below average)
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To: parisa

It was cheaper than oil. With Government subsidies. Without them it wasn’t. The real reason is that this is what the Farm Lobby wanted. The price of corn has skyrocketed.


20 posted on 01/04/2011 9:29:56 PM PST by Republic of Texas (Socialism Always Fails)
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To: Morpheus2009
How does adding ethanol to gasoline affect it’s combustion efficiency?

It doesn't. Ethanol actually reduces miles per gallon of fuel because its energy density is lower than petroleum gasoline. It does increase octane number, but that is an index related to engine knock, not efficiency. Other gasoline blend components can increase octane just as much without diminishing miles per gallon.

The ostensible reasons for the ethanol mandate are related to energy security, international trade economics, and environment. The benefits claimed are all controversial and, from my study, dubious at best. We all know the real reasons for the ethanol mandate and subsidies. WRT natural gas powered cars: these are feasible, but your trunk will be occupied by a much larger fuel tank filled with heavy, high-pressure natural gas. The USPS trucks here in North Texas are dual fuel, but the USPS discontinued using natural gas for fuel here even though prices now are relatively low. It didn't work for them even though they fill up at same place for motor gasoline or natural gas.

21 posted on 01/04/2011 9:31:10 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: 43north
Thank God there are fuel stations in my area that sell unadulterated premium GASoline. I have not had any problems with my ATV, Chainsaw, or snowblower engines since changing over to PURE GAS.

My chainsaw ain't workin' worth a crap now. How did you locate non-ethanol gas stations? Just driving around?

22 posted on 01/04/2011 9:34:49 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: 43north

A 15% ethanol mandate is less costly to the government than Cash for Clunckers. Rather than paying people to wreck their car, the Feds mandate that they wreck their car’s engine.

According to the Keynesians, this is great economics. It will create new demand for new Government Motor cars with the fuel systems and gasket materials necessary for E85 flex fuel. I’m surprised Paul Krugman hasn’t written a NYT article about this development.


23 posted on 01/04/2011 9:37:15 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

why do refineries think they
get to decide what fuel I put
in my car?


24 posted on 01/04/2011 9:37:15 PM PST by Talf
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Just so nobody forgets: The ethanol was mandated when Republicans controlled the Presidency, the Senate, and the House.

It was in 2005 that Congress enacted the Energy Policy Act that mandates the use of ethanol in gasoline, which was signed by George W Bush.

It’s also worth remembering that Nixon signed the original EPA legislation and George HW Bush signed the Clean Air Amendments that enable the EPA to regulate carbon dioxide as an air pollutant.


25 posted on 01/04/2011 9:44:23 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Cobra64

www.pure-gas.org

Lists gas stations with REAL gas by state and community.

Godd@mn the epa!


26 posted on 01/04/2011 9:45:08 PM PST by 43north (BHO: 50% white, 50% black, 100% red)
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To: Talf

why do POLITICIANS think they
get to decide what fuel I put
in my car?

________________________

Fixed that for you.

I bet refineries don’t want anything to do with ethanol since it probably increases their production costs for the final product.


27 posted on 01/04/2011 9:50:57 PM PST by volunbeer
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To: Cobra64

You could test your gas with kits that are available on the Internet. I test mine now. I know the gas in my local station is free of that crap. I plan to test other stations as well.


28 posted on 01/04/2011 9:56:29 PM PST by seemoAR
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

Ruins the gas pumps, ruins our autos, raises the cost of food...........just what the maoist had in mind.


29 posted on 01/04/2011 10:01:18 PM PST by Carley (PRINTING OPINION, IGNORING THE FACTS......the msm!!!)
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To: Brilliant
So what interest do the oil producers have in this other than the fact that they want you to buy gasoline instead of ethanol? How else are they being hurt by it?

Refiners, pipelines, wholesalers, retailers, and drivers hate, or at least should hate, ethanol because it is hydrophilic. Water readily separates from petroleum hydrocarbons (i.e., oil and water don't mix), but it mixes readily with alcohol. Thus, you can easily get water mixed into motor gasoline since the ethanol mixes with both water and gasoline.

The oil refining and marketing industry is also concerned about performance issues of using ethanol in their customers' automobiles. The EPA and the rest of the USG doesn't care if their mandate destroys your car's engine, but businessmen actually want their products to work well for their customers. It's bad for business. For some reason, government screws up over and over again, but it still gets paid because it can coerce taxpayers. Businessmen rely on voluntary customers for their livelihoods.

30 posted on 01/04/2011 10:01:28 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Talf

why do refineries think they
get to decide what fuel I put
in my car?

BECAUSE THEY WILL GO TO JAIL IF THEY DO NOT COMPLY WITH THE MANDATE, THAT’S WHY.


31 posted on 01/04/2011 10:04:10 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: volunbeer

there is no federal maximum mandate, for
hydrocarbon content, any fuel distribution
operation can sell 100% hydrocarbon, if they want to.

the mandate, is for the minimum content
of the product of the refineries.

In other words, you buy from the refineries,
or else. how nice of them


32 posted on 01/04/2011 10:05:09 PM PST by Talf
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To: Carley

You forgot to include: “ruins the environment”.

Ethanol and other bio-fuels are responsible for increasing fertilizer runoff into waterways and reducing habitat for wildlife. If you believe in the global warming hysteria, they also increase greenhouse gases.


33 posted on 01/04/2011 10:07:20 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Talf
In other words, you buy from the refineries, or else.

Or else you don't buy any gasoline because all gasoline is manufactured in petroleum fuels refineries.

The EPA exempts "small refineries" from its mandate because the mandate would be overwhelmingly uneconomic for them. Exempt refineries comprise a very small fraction of US refinery capacity.

Sure, one can still retail 100% hydrocarbon motor gasoline, if you can get it. It's generally available only in areas served by "small refineries" that serve relatively small markets.

34 posted on 01/04/2011 10:20:05 PM PST by Skepolitic
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To: Venturer

“I need to find where to buy gas without [ethanol].”

State-by-state listings are at: http://pure-gas.org/


35 posted on 01/04/2011 10:31:18 PM PST by Wombat Ark
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To: Morpheus2009

Ethanol has a higher Octane Rating, but much lower heat capacity per gallon. So your car will not be as prone to knock ( now that there’s no lead antiknock in gasoline). With the lower heat content, to produce the same power as it would with straight gasoline, your car’s computer has to add fuel to maintain the power level. This is what’s so stupid about ethanol. It takes more energy to produce it and it takes more of it to propel you down the road. Expect to get 10% lower milage with 10% ethanol blend and 15% less with a 15% mix. Also, it was an expensive proposition for the automakers because ethanol is corrosive to many of the parts in the engine’s fuel system. Also some elastomers ( used for seals) had to be changed along with a more sophisticated engine management system that has the ability to determine the ethanol blend currently in use. On top of these negatives, ethanol production is driving up the price of corn so food and beef are more expensive What a government!!!


36 posted on 01/04/2011 11:03:52 PM PST by vette6387 (Enough Already!)
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To: vette6387

All that so they can avoid drilling where abundant oil exists. Like in ANWR for example.


37 posted on 01/04/2011 11:31:48 PM PST by meyer (Obama - the Schwartz is with him.)
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To: Skepolitic
It will create new demand for new Government Motor cars with the fuel systems and gasket materials necessary for E85 flex fuel.

A salesman with the local Government Motors Dealer told me last week that they recommend anyone buying a E85 flex fuel vehicle to get cast heads on it, not aluminum. E85 burns too hot for aluminum heads.

When I ask if it was true that if you burn regular gas in a E85 flex fuel vehicle your mileage would increase 20% or more. He said YES.

My 2005 GM pick up is nearing the end of it's warranty was the only reason I was in their dealership.

If you want a location to buy 100% gasoline (ethanol free) check out: pure-gas.org or watch the billboards outside C Stores near you.

38 posted on 01/04/2011 11:42:46 PM PST by TYVets
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To: Wombat Ark

Thanks for posting a clickable link for ethanol free gasoline.


39 posted on 01/04/2011 11:48:47 PM PST by TYVets
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To: seemoAR
You could test your gas with kits that are available on the Internet. I test mine now. I know the gas in my local station is free of that crap.

Any recommendations as to which kits work?

Costs of kits, supplies etc?

40 posted on 01/04/2011 11:58:04 PM PST by TYVets
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To: Wombat Ark; enough_idiocy; meyer; Normandy; Whenifhow; TenthAmendmentChampion; Clive; scripter; ...
A state-by-state list of ethanol-free gasoline stations.
Thanx !

 


Beam me to Planet Gore !

41 posted on 01/05/2011 12:58:46 AM PST by steelyourfaith (ObamaCare Death Panels: a Final Solution to the looming Social Security crisis ?)
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To: Skepolitic

That’s all nice, but mostly non-sequiturs of why there is ethanol in gasoline.

The real reason why ethanol was blended into gasoline was that the prior oxygenate, MTBE, was found to be responsible for contaminating ground water supplies where underground tanks leaked. So MTBE became a liability for refiners.

The EPA requires there to be an oxygenate additive in gasoline, so the next choice was ethanol. Modern closed-cycle EFI engines with O2 sensors in the exhaust stream don’t actually *need* any oxygenate additive in the fuel at all, but hey, we’re dealing with the environmentalists here who believe that without oxygenates that the LA basin would go back to the days of the 70’s, when you couldn’t see Mt. Wilson from Pasadena.

The reason why cars get worse mileage with ethanol in their fuel is that US automotive engineers can’t seem to remove their heads from their rectums and use the added octane boost to increase the compression ratio of the engine. Oddly enough, Ferrari was able to produce a 500HP high end sports car that gets better mileage on E85 than on pure gasoline.... just as any engineer who doesn’t have his head up his ass could do.

This cranial/rectal inversion that seems to run rampant in Detroit also seems to prevent them from delivering a small turbodiesel engine package that produces 50+ MPG vehicles as they have in Europe. Instead, they’re busy chasing utter twaddle like the Chevy Volt.


42 posted on 01/05/2011 2:14:24 AM PST by NVDave
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To: Skepolitic

No, they’re not. What utter nonsense.

The corn grown that gets put into ethanol is no different than the corn grown for cattle feed, or the corn grown for export. There is no special fertilization done for corn grown for ethanol production.


43 posted on 01/05/2011 2:18:39 AM PST by NVDave
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To: CSI007; Morpheus2009

It is also hydroscopic, meaning it attracts moisture out of the air. Water in gasoline is very bad for engines. (Water injection in used in certain high performance engines as a coolant. Those engines are not running economically while being injected with water.)


44 posted on 01/05/2011 2:52:43 AM PST by Lonesome in Massachussets (Socialists are to economics what circle squarers are to math; undaunted by reason or derision.)
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To: NVDave

On diesels, the EPA’s particulate matter regulations have really done a number on trucks and heavy diesels the last few years. Some companies (including Mitsubishi) have actually halted production of trucks for the US market until the EPA got its regs finalized to a point where something could be designed to comply with it. Then the regs will change again.

I have always thought that MPG was a very poor measure of efficiency. There is nothing there to account for the load being moved. Under this system, a semi moving 80000lb of freight at 4MPG is less efficient than a Prius moving a 160lb guy at 40MPG. Is the Prius 10 times as efficient as the semi, or is the semi 50 times as efficient as the Prius.
Could this be why cars are delivered on trucks??


45 posted on 01/05/2011 3:51:17 AM PST by Hiryusan
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To: TYVets

This is the one I bought. http://www.fuel-testers.com/order.html No, I don’t work for them. {:0)

It is fairly easy to use. I don’t know how accurate it is. it did show no Ethanol in gas I bought at my local country store. They did advertise their gas to be free of alcohol. I tested a sample from a major station that had the 10% or less sign. That test indicated 5%. That last gas smelled a lot different also.


46 posted on 01/05/2011 4:06:21 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: CSI007
You are correct about the engine damage and reduced combustion potential however, Ethanol does not lower combustion temperatures. It lowers exhaust gas temperatures instead. It also lowers vapor pressures which causes incomplete combustion and part of the ethanol leaves the cylinders unburned.

This sets up the dissolution of the lubricating oils on the cylinder walls, which causes rapid engine wear or damage. The higher the percentage of Ethanol, the more damage it causes. The only remedy to counter this would be to directly mix lubricating oil in the fuel.

Racing engines that run on methanol would surely seize up if they did not do this. Methanol also attracts moisture and creates jells, flaking in the fuel system, rapidly corrodes aluminum blocks and heads and even a sand-like material that destroys fuel injector systems.

Racing teams that use Methanol, must completely flush the fuel systems after every race. They cannot let it sit still very long or it will turn to jelly and destroy the engine's aluminum parts.

Methanol is made from coal and is much dryer than Ethanol which is why it is the only Alcohol based fuel that can be run as a direct fuel for racing engines.

Ethanol is bad, bad stuff to be mixing in our high cost vehicles, and the reaction it causes when it comes in contact with Benzene and several other chemicals in gasoline does far more damage than any benefit it might offer.

47 posted on 01/05/2011 4:31:43 AM PST by PSYCHO-FREEP ( Give me Liberty, or give me an M-24A2!)
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To: Skepolitic

The enviro-nazis learned nothing from MTBE. They just move on to the next mode of destruction.


48 posted on 01/05/2011 4:39:36 AM PST by Carley (PRINTING OPINION, IGNORING THE FACTS......the msm!!!)
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To: Brilliant

How would your company be hurt by being forced to sell products with 15% composition made by a competitor?


49 posted on 01/05/2011 4:52:22 AM PST by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: Tolerance Sucks Rocks

In a world where corn is essential food, it would be legitimate to BAN ETHANOL use in vehicles.


50 posted on 01/05/2011 4:57:55 AM PST by RoadTest (Religion is a substitute for the relationship God wants with you.)
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