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Gun Talk: Ten Rounds In A Magazine May Not Be Enough Firearm Realities (Update)
http://radioviceonline.com/ ^ | January 20, 2011 | Steve McGough

Posted on 01/20/2011 5:07:19 PM PST by Biggirl

Gun control advocates and even former Vice President Dick Cheney have suggested having 10 rounds available in a magazine for a semi-automatic pistol “seems” like enough to protect oneself, yet the argument is simply an extension of a random number that “seems” to make people feel better and has no relation to real-world situations.

I’ve caught a few posts during the last week concerning the number of rounds a pistol magazine can hold. It’s an emotional issue for many, but limiting the magazine capacity of semi-automatic pistols would not make a difference, and could put those defending themselves in a more difficult situation.

Rick Green at the Hartford Courant has brought this subject up twice (here and here) within the last week mentioning he tried to get an answer from Sen. Dick Blumenthal (D-Conn.) concerning a proposed limit. Ed Morrisey at Hot Air posted just today referencing Cheney’s comment about the same.

(Excerpt) Read more at radioviceonline.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: az; banglist; guns; tuscon
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A feature in the article is a video of director Michael Moore. Have at it!
1 posted on 01/20/2011 5:07:23 PM PST by Biggirl
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To: Biggirl

2 posted on 01/20/2011 5:09:34 PM PST by BenLurkin (This post is not a statement of fact. It is merely a personal opinion -- or humor -- or both)
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To: Biggirl

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ls4Uq1aCiTA

Solves the problem.

Learn to reload. Carry an extra mag or two on your belt.

In the real world if you have time to draw in the first place, you likely have time to reload ... if you are practiced.


3 posted on 01/20/2011 5:11:53 PM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Biggirl

I better buy a Draco while can.


4 posted on 01/20/2011 5:13:17 PM PST by Bringbackthedraft (The candidate they smear and ridicule the most is the one they fear the most.)
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To: Biggirl
The father of a friend of mine was a Texas Ranger. Jim still has his service gun, a Gold Cup 1911 believe it or not.

He related to me that his dad told him once, when there was trouble, to "just put lead in the air, Jimmie".

5 posted on 01/20/2011 5:14:06 PM PST by grobdriver (Proud Member, Party Of No! No Socialism - No Fascism - Nobama - No Way!)
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To: Blueflag

>>In the real world if you have time to draw in the first place, you likely have time to reload ... if you are practiced.

In the real world, if you NEED a reload you have already failed the First Rule of Pistols: A handgun is for defense only. You use it to get away from a gunfight.


6 posted on 01/20/2011 5:16:34 PM PST by Bryanw92 (We don't need to win elections. We need to win a revolution.)
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To: grobdriver
It's time to LEAVE GUN OWNERS ALONE.

I, for one, am sick of being blamed every time another "gun incident" pops up.

Government is too freaking big at every level.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2623044/posts

DE-FUND!!!

7 posted on 01/20/2011 5:17:46 PM PST by Jerrybob
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To: Biggirl

Isn’t the relative stopping power of a 9mm vs a 45 between 3:1 or 4:1?

Doesn’t this mean you have to 3 bullets in your semi vs 1 in a revolver to equal the required stopping power for one attacker?

If so, this means a mag of 10 is just sufficient for 3 attackers and either you need another mag or an extended mag to ensure that you have the same stopping power of the 45 revolver.

Not an expert, but I believe this was what was explained to me by my local gun expert a few years ago.


8 posted on 01/20/2011 5:17:48 PM PST by dila813
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To: Biggirl

Kel-Tec has a nice looking plinker that holds 30 rounds of .22 Magnum. Hopefully, they will make one that can fire .22LR as well.


9 posted on 01/20/2011 5:18:17 PM PST by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: dila813
With modern bullet design and powders, the stopping power for a 9mm and a .45ACP are about the same. That being said, I still prefer a .45ACP.

The “one shot stop” capability of either round is less than 100%, this is why you shoot in pairs.

Another rule of gunfighting. If you know handguns will be used, bring a shotgun or rifle. As posted earlier, handguns are more for defense than offense.

10 posted on 01/20/2011 5:23:01 PM PST by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: Bryanw92

No. My trainer says otherwise.

*IF* you have drawn, you have made a [legal and moral] decision to employ deadly force to stop a threat. Not “get away.”

AND

There may be more than one perp to deal with.

AND

MOST people have NEVER had to fire their weapon in real life - ie AT a human who is threatening them, moving, out in the open, an so on. MOST shots WILL miss. You may need a reload to stay alive. (even if it is to run away)

So, if you HAVE made the decision to draw, you are **NOT** doing so to threaten. You are doing so because the situation requires you to use deadly force to protect life and property.

I am taught to never draw and point my weapon at a human unless I MUST and INTEND to use deadly force to ELIMINATE a threat.

Back to you ;-)


11 posted on 01/20/2011 5:23:01 PM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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Targeting: Biggirl

"Gun control advocates and even former Vice President Dick Cheney"

Gun control advocates such as former Vice President Dick Cheney


12 posted on 01/20/2011 5:23:30 PM PST by I see my hands (_8(|)
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To: Biggirl; Envisioning; waterhill

ping


13 posted on 01/20/2011 5:23:42 PM PST by ixtl ( I may disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.)
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To: Bryanw92

“A handgun is for defense only. You use it to get away from a gunfight.”
I only plan to use it to fight my way to my shotgun.


14 posted on 01/20/2011 5:23:56 PM PST by bitterohiogunclinger (Proudly casting a heavy carbon footprint as I clean my guns ---)
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To: Biggirl

How I responded to a lefty regarding magazine rounds:

1) Shouldn’t ‘people of color’ be allowed to defend themselves from a group of 18 armed rednecks that always get guns like a crackhead can get smack???

2) Shouldn’t females who wish to exercise their reproductive rights, be allowed to defend themselves, with a gun with enough ammo against the Christian Taliban reacting to Sarah Palin’s angry rhetoric??

3) A gay person should have enough rounds to defend themselves against the homophobic crowd often found in rural areas. No More Matthew Shepards please!!!

4) Shouldn’t a progressive liberal trapped in NASCAR country have a large enough magazine round to defend themselves from Southerners who wish to restart the Civil War???


15 posted on 01/20/2011 5:26:35 PM PST by Le Chien Rouge
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To: Sergio

Maybe it changed, he was saying double tap the chest and single tap the head with the 9 and the 45 was a single tap to the head.

You guys on the forums always keep on this stuff, I don’t. That being said, I am sure there is a valid reason to have extended mags.

When I was in the service, we had 9 shot mags which were only loaded with 5 cartridges. In training we were told that the mags had a propensity for jamming when carrying cartridges for a long time in a full mag (they were only removed from the mag once per week for inspection). We were told that the spring when compressed for long periods of time would not reliably provide enough force to push a cartridge in.

Is this a reason for extended mags as well?


16 posted on 01/20/2011 5:31:41 PM PST by dila813
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To: Blueflag

Very well said B.


17 posted on 01/20/2011 5:32:55 PM PST by bobby.223
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To: Le Chien Rouge

Very good!


18 posted on 01/20/2011 5:33:37 PM PST by rockrr ("I said that I was scared of you!" - pokie the pretend cowboy)
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To: bitterohiogunclinger
I only plan to use it to fight my way to my shotgun.

You are a great tactician!

19 posted on 01/20/2011 5:35:58 PM PST by The Cajun
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To: Le Chien Rouge

lol! Love it!


20 posted on 01/20/2011 5:39:07 PM PST by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: Biggirl

The whole issue with magazine capacity boils down to incrementalism, or disarmament by a thousand cuts. (Sorry about the butchered metaphor, but that’s my specialty.)

If the guv can limit magazines to 10 rounds, they can limit them to 8, then 5, then 2, then 1, and then, whoops! You don’t really need a gun any more, because it can only legally contain zero rounds of ammo.

Never be distracted from the end game of gun control, which is complete and utter civilian disarmament.


21 posted on 01/20/2011 5:41:29 PM PST by Disambiguator (Political Correctness is mandatory stupidity.)
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To: Biggirl

More is always better when you are talking about how many rounds a firearm can hold.


22 posted on 01/20/2011 5:44:27 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: BenLurkin

“You don’t bring a double-barrel to a machine-gun fight.”

- SAM


23 posted on 01/20/2011 5:45:14 PM PST by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Blueflag

Is your trainer Front Sight?


24 posted on 01/20/2011 5:48:21 PM PST by Bryanw92 (We don't need to win elections. We need to win a revolution.)
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To: dila813
The chest area is larger and therefore an easier target to hit than the head. That said, two to the chest with a handgun regardless of caliber, with a follow up to the head if the first two shots did not stop the assailant.

As far as magazines go, newer metals used for springs in new magazines have alleviated some of the “fatigue” issues associated with keeping them loaded for long periods of time. However, if you don't have the time or $$$ to practice enough to make spring fatigue a non-issue, (the mag won't be loaded if you shoot all the bullets that are in it), you may be better served with a revolver.

With a wheel gun, you don't have to worry about spring fatigue as everything is at rest until you pull the trigger.

25 posted on 01/20/2011 5:48:23 PM PST by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: Sergio
With modern bullet design and powders, the stopping power for a 9mm and a .45ACP are about the same. That being said, I still prefer a .45ACP.

I like the 9mm better, lighter, faster pistol and less kick, barrel climbing. Cheaper ammo for lots of practice and loaded with Remington Golden Saber ammo about the same stopping power as a 45.
As far as magazine capacity, adequate to defend myself is what I want, not what some idiot politicain *feels* should be adequate.

26 posted on 01/20/2011 5:53:08 PM PST by The Cajun
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To: Bryanw92

No.

http://www.bullseyemarksman.com/

Great bunch of ex-military and executive security guys there who have been there and done that.

Very good ‘combat tactics’ / personal defense trainer there.

But Front Sight seems to have a good reputation. Why do you ask?


27 posted on 01/20/2011 6:05:34 PM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Blueflag
"In the real world if you have time to draw in the first place, you likely have time to reload ... if you are practiced."

In the real world, folks age and don't have the coordination they once possessed. The older I get, the more I appreciate this concept. Certain illnesses will also bring your 1.5 second reload to an ugly end.

28 posted on 01/20/2011 6:29:22 PM PST by JustaDumbBlonde (Don't wish doom on your enemies. Plan it.)
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To: Biggirl
FWIW, about a year ago a Freeper posted a link to an article that may be germane to this topic...

The “Center Mass” Myth and Ending a Gunfight

http://forums.gunsamerica.com:80/yaf_postst14_The-Center-Mass-Myth-and-Ending-a-Gunfight.aspx?c=0301

“Lots of people stay in the fight after “center mass” hits, and some even win it... One, two or even several well placed “center mass” shots may not do what you think it will...”

The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

As a civilian, I found this article to be a real eye opener, and while it may be old news to those of you in law enforcement or the military (thank you all for your service), I hope you will take the time to read this article. God forbid any of us should get into a gunfight, but this article could be a lifesaver someday.

29 posted on 01/20/2011 6:30:44 PM PST by ADemocratNoMore (Jeepers, Freepers, where'd 'ya get those sleepers?. Pj people, exposing old media's lies.)
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To: Biggirl

Someone intent on doing harm will always figure out a way around the rules.


30 posted on 01/20/2011 7:18:15 PM PST by smokingfrog (BORN free - taxed to DEATH)
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To: Bryanw92
In the real world, if you NEED a reload you have already failed the First Rule of Pistols: A handgun is for defense only. You use it to get away from a gunfight.

I can't say I agree with that. If a confrontation results in the good guy firing two or three shots at the bad guy... *if* there's a break in the action, the prudent thing is to do a tactical reload at the first opportunity. Even if you've only fired a couple of rounds, go ahead and switch out for a full magazine. That way... if something new develops, you've got a full magazine to deal with it. My .02

31 posted on 01/20/2011 7:22:42 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: ADemocratNoMore
The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

Well, the "myth" comes from movies where people get shot and fall down dead. It just doesn't work that way in real life. It takes ~time~ for people to die in the real world. It's not a pretty thing. But with enough holes in them, they won't be able to put up a fight while it happens. Preferably, large gaping holes.

32 posted on 01/20/2011 7:48:59 PM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us... one chance in three. More tea?)
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To: dila813
Despite the ammo wars, the first rule of thumb is the ability to hit the target. A miss with a .45 is worse than a good hit with a 9mm.

Take some classes from real experts not gun store commandos.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto&feature=related

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

33 posted on 01/20/2011 7:53:34 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: dila813
Despite the ammo wars, the first rule of thumb is the ability to hit the target. A miss with a .45 is worse than a good hit with a 9mm.

Take some classes from real experts not gun store commandos.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto&feature=related

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

34 posted on 01/20/2011 7:57:21 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: dila813
Despite the ammo wars, the first rule of thumb is the ability to hit the target. A miss with a .45 is worse than a good hit with a 9mm.

Take some classes from real experts not gun store commandos.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXVNypPUGto&feature=related

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

35 posted on 01/20/2011 8:10:21 PM PST by Cobra64
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To: dila813

I have sent the following to my congress critters:

There has been a lot of nonsense in the news about banning large magazines for pistols, specifically the 33 round used by the shooter in Tuscon.

I say nonsense because: Suppose we ban them.

Who will obey the law? Certainly not swat teams. Certainly not crazies like the shooter in Tuscon.

It will have no affect at all on the legal concealed carry because there is no way one can carry a 30 round pistol/magazine concealed. If you know anything at all about CCW, the idea of one going to Walmart or McDonald’s or any restaurant with a 30 round magazine under your coat or shirt is ludicrous.

So the only people who under the proposed ban would carry a pistol with a 30 round magazine would be swat teams and crazies, exactly the same people who would carry them under th present laws.

But why should anyone have a 30 plus round magazine in his pistol?

The statistics show that cops in the middle of their shift, wide awake, miss 85% of the time.

So a person who is awakened from a deep sleep in the wee hours, vision blurred, heart beating 150 beats per minute, is probably going to miss even more..

Suppose there are two intruders, as is often the case, and the home owner hits only 15%.

30 rounds x 15% = 4.5 hits. The homeowner will be lucky to get that.

A 10 round mag would give the homeowner 1.5 hits. Not good enough.

So a pistol with a 30 round mag is made for the under the bed home defense gun.


36 posted on 01/20/2011 8:28:12 PM PST by old curmudgeon
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To: Bringbackthedraft
I better buy a Draco while can.

I have one and highly recommend getting one. Enormous firepower in a small package.

37 posted on 01/21/2011 12:49:04 AM PST by SIDENET ("If that's your best, your best won't do." -Dee Snider)
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To: EdReform

bookmark


38 posted on 01/21/2011 1:43:59 AM PST by EdReform (Oath Keepers - Guardians of the Republic - Honor your oath - Join us: www.oathkeepers.org)
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To: BenLurkin; All
Just remember folks, that when they gun grabber’s talk about restricting magazines, they’re talking ALL magazines, not just those for handguns.

Therefore, that’s just 10 rounds for your AR or your mini-14, or whatever else you have.

They seem to be ‘Targeting’ (if one is still Allowed to use that word) 30 rounds for some reason, that means they want to restrict your RKBA to a ridiculously low number like 15 – 10 rounds.

Next time ‘round, it’ll be 5 rounds, and if the gun grabbers had their way, we’d be reduced to individually loading “Bullets” into single shot pop guns (That is, if they were being generous)

39 posted on 01/21/2011 6:03:18 AM PST by GYL2 (Always mystify, mislead and surprise the enemy Thomas J. (Stonewall) Jackson)
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To: dila813

For magazine springs, it’s not constant compression that make them weaker. It’s actually using the springs over and over that causes wear.


40 posted on 01/21/2011 6:52:22 AM PST by Steve495
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To: dila813

You mean 45 ACP or 45 Colt? If you mean 45 ACP vs. 9x19 (Luger/Para), the 9 is less powerful, but not so much less as to be a ridiculous choice for self defense. Certainly not three times or four times less. And I don’t get the revolver vs. auto comparison, as the 45 ACP and 9mm Para are both typically auto rounds. Maybe you meant 45 Colt, but that’s not the round most people use as a defensive round in a revolver either. I can’t follow your reasoning.


41 posted on 01/21/2011 3:20:15 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Blueflag

Goes back to the (old wild west?) adage, don’t bring out your gun unless to shoot; don’t shoot unless to kill.

However...in the modern world, would you rather scare off an attacker by presenting a weapon or deal with the aftermath of spilling blood?

And yes, legally, police etc will tell you presenting the gun is “brandishing” in public... usually on a dark street with no rules ;)

Don’t misunderstand, to present the weapon you must be fully willing to use it, or it will be used against you. However in many circumstances simply presenting the gun will send the scumbags scurrying as often occurs.

Of course all relative to the situation and the threat level..ie Numerous adversaries hands visible compared to one advancing attacker with blade.


42 posted on 01/21/2011 7:06:49 PM PST by TheBigJ
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To: The Cajun

Ever try the 10mm?

For example, the Glock 20...same size frame as Glock 21 in .45 acp, yet much less recoil, does not climb, gun pushes slightly back into your hand..with the right ammo, equivalency of a .41 magnum, very fast repeat shots.

Or get a hotter load like the Double Tap 230 grain hard cast, little more climbing than like .45acp!

Downside 10mm ammo is more expensive, less available. ;(


43 posted on 01/21/2011 7:15:13 PM PST by TheBigJ
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To: Still Thinking

45 Revolver is what I was talking about, but just relaying an opinion. I really don’t know.


44 posted on 01/21/2011 7:45:18 PM PST by dila813
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To: TheBigJ
Downside 10mm ammo is more expensive, less available.

Kind of the reason I went with the 9mm Glock 17. I practice a lot, built my own target range on some property I own in the middle of nowhere.
The primary reason I went to a semi-auto was a little arthritis starting up in my right hand, particularly thumb. Always used single and double action revolvers before. The .44 Redhawk is no longer fun to target practice with.
Liked the Glock more than I thought I would.

45 posted on 01/21/2011 8:08:29 PM PST by The Cajun
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To: dila813

45 Colt (revolver cartridge) is certainly hotter than either a 9x19 or 45 ACP (although there are revolvers that will take 45 ACP).


46 posted on 01/21/2011 8:23:27 PM PST by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Sergio

Stay away from the KelTec PMR 30. They are already having feed problems and returns are running off the scale.


47 posted on 01/21/2011 8:32:42 PM PST by MHGinTN (Some, believing they can't be deceived, it's nigh impossible to convince them when they're deceived.)
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To: TheBigJ

Agreed. It is not cut and dry.

Our military applies (at least) two criteria to threat assessment:

(1) what CAN the adversary do - what are they CAPABLE of

(2) what do they INTEND to do.

In a personal defense situation we largely deal with inference and our perception of the situation to assess #2 first, with far less regard for #1. Thus the expected question of ‘was deadly force warranted?’


48 posted on 01/22/2011 5:08:54 AM PST by Blueflag (Res ipsa loquitur)
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To: Bryanw92
In the real world, if you NEED a reload you have already failed the First Rule of Pistols: A handgun is for defense only. You use it to get away from a gunfight.

Visualize being caught in the Rodney King riots. Now visualize having to leave the danger zone on foot. How much ammo would you need?

49 posted on 01/22/2011 5:33:29 AM PST by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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To: ADemocratNoMore
The author,Jim Higginbotham, who has had decades of LEO experience makes the case that even in the case of lethal hits, the perp has enough time to fire back, and in many cases kill people who were waiting to see the effect of their initial hits on target.

That's why cops are taught to keep firing until the bad guy goes down. Some places, I think they are taught to empty the magazine.

50 posted on 01/22/2011 5:38:41 AM PST by PapaBear3625 ("It is only when we've lost everything, that we are free to do anything" -- Fight Club)
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