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Loughner Indictment
National Review ^ | Andrew c. McCarthy

Posted on 01/21/2011 3:30:39 PM PST by ventanax5

There was some head-scratching a couple of days ago over the Justice Department’s indictment of Jared Lee Loughner in the Tucson shootings case because he was not charged with the murders of Chief Judge John Roll and Gabriel Zimmerman, a legislative aide to Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. Instead, the indictment charges only the attempted murders of Representative Giffords and her two other aides, Ron Barber and Pamela Simon. (My column a few days back explained that there is no federal jurisdiction to charge murder or attempted murder in connection with the victims who were not federal officers.)

I was interviewed by Politico‘s Josh Gerstein for his report a couple of days ago. As I told Josh, I don’t think there is anything mysterious afoot — unusual, yes, but not mysterious. Ordinarily, when a defendant is arrested on a “complaint” (i.e., not a grand jury indictment but a mere arrest warrant supported by an agent’s complaint affidavit describing the probable cause for the charges in the warrant), the feds must indict that defendant within 30 days under the Speedy Trial Act. If that defendant has been denied bail, however, the time to indict shrinks to ten business days.

(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: arizona; capitalmurder; demoratcorruption; demoratscandal; disgustingslimeball; giffords; holder; indictment; kenyanvillageidiot; law; loughner; murder; tucson; usattorney

1 posted on 01/21/2011 3:30:40 PM PST by ventanax5
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To: ventanax5

Presumably there’s no fear that any judge is going to turn this guy loose ~


2 posted on 01/21/2011 3:37:43 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ventanax5
I would assume Eric Holder plans to prosecute Loughner for the murder of Gabe Zimmerman, since he was an aide to a Democratic congresswoman. He probably doesn't care about the judge since he was a Bush appointee, but will at least go through the motions. The state of Arizona could prosecute for murder if Holder doesn't, but if he deliberately botches the cases, then Loughner should be able to use the "no double jeopardy" clause to prevent the state from going after him.

Maybe I'm being overly cynical, but with Holder everything seems to be either about politics or about race.

3 posted on 01/21/2011 3:47:19 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: ventanax5

So when will charges be filed for the Non-Federal employees who were killed and or injured I did not see that in the article was it addressed did I miss it?.


4 posted on 01/21/2011 3:50:03 PM PST by funfan
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To: funfan

Sheriff DipStick will get on that as soon as he gets done watching Olbermann tonight.


5 posted on 01/21/2011 3:53:29 PM PST by Carling (Remember November)
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To: Carling

LOL!


6 posted on 01/21/2011 3:54:54 PM PST by MissTed ( Do women in burqas have fun tagging each other in Facebook photos?)
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To: Carling

So in otherwards Some animals are more equal than others


7 posted on 01/21/2011 3:55:45 PM PST by funfan
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To: ventanax5
Yes I find it odd that no murder charges have been filed --particularly for the murder of Judge Roll.

I saw an article stating that surveillance video shows "very clearly" that Laughner shot Roll and another man, after shooting Giffords.

Then the video apparently shows Roll diving under a table, while shielding the other wounded man from fire. Loughner kept on shooting at Roll, and Roll died.

I haven't heard if the video clearly shows Loughner shooting the little girl. But apparently the evidence is plain as the nose on your face that Loughner murdered Roll.

So why couldn't non-capital murder charges could be filed right now, re Roll, and later upgraded to death penalty charges if Loughner is found mentally competent ?

Could there be something political going on here? Roll was a Republican AND a hero in this incident. Yet we hear almost nothing about him.

8 posted on 01/21/2011 4:02:31 PM PST by shhrubbery!
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To: Verginius Rufus
The state of Arizona could prosecute for murder if Holder doesn't, but if he deliberately botches the cases, then Loughner should be able to use the "no double jeopardy" clause to prevent the state from going after him.

If the Feds don't charge the looney for most of his murders, I don't see how double jeopardy would apply for those acts.

9 posted on 01/21/2011 4:03:04 PM PST by Erasmus (Personal goal: Have a bigger carbon footprint than Tony Robbins.)
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To: ventanax5

Heard some lawyer on a radio show say that because Judge Rolls was not acting in his official capacity when he was killed, his murder does not qualify as a federal case.


10 posted on 01/21/2011 4:05:57 PM PST by Churchillspirit (9/11/01...NEVER FORGET.)
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To: shhrubbery!

Judge Rollis a Federal Judge! Who the Hell is Holder or his minions to discount that Judge Roll was there in His Federal Capacities!! If he was a Demorat Appointed Judge, You can bet the story woulda had him being a Liberal Hero who saved Hundreds while being attacked by a Rightwing Extremist!


11 posted on 01/21/2011 4:13:07 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: ventanax5

If the judge had been a democrat then things would be different. It would not matter if the judge had been on official duty or not.


12 posted on 01/21/2011 4:23:39 PM PST by Revel
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To: Churchillspirit

How can anybody decide without a timely investigation, that Judge Roll was there as a private citizen! That just stinks!
Judge Roll was a Federal Judge known to be urset with the Illegal Immigrant problem in Arizona and the cases he was being forced to deal with! and his associates have stated he went specifically to visit that day to call attention to those problems to the Congressman Gifford in an official setting!
Judge Roll could call or see her privately most anytime for personal interaction of a private nature. Holder is full of Sheet! If Judge Roll was a Demorat Judge, Holder would have the pervert on Death Row by now.....But we now know who Holder really is... don’t we, a political Hack....


13 posted on 01/21/2011 4:24:17 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: True Republican Patriot

Darn! What a perfect Post!! AMEN!!


14 posted on 01/21/2011 4:26:46 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: Verginius Rufus
I would assume Eric Holder plans to prosecute Loughner for the murder of Gabe Zimmerman, since he was an aide to a Democratic congresswoman. He probably doesn't care about the judge since he was a Bush appointee, but will at least go through the motions.

The federal government can prosecute the murder of a judge only if the judge was carrying out his official duties while he was killed. That may be hard to prove here, hence the delay in indicting on that count. As the article explains, this indictment is really just a placeholder until the real one can be prepared.

The state of Arizona could prosecute for murder if Holder doesn't, but if he deliberately botches the cases, then Loughner should be able to use the "no double jeopardy" clause to prevent the state from going after him.

SCOTUS has held, rightly or wrongly, that double jeopardy doesn't apply to prosecutions by the federal government and a state. So Arizona will probably indict for all of the killings, both of the federal officials and the other victims.

15 posted on 01/21/2011 4:29:47 PM PST by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: True Republican Patriot

With the RATS ‘leading’ this investigation, it may boil down to whether he was wearing or carrying his robe or not.


16 posted on 01/21/2011 4:30:37 PM PST by txhurl
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To: Carling
Sheriff DipStick will get on that as soon as he gets done watching Olbermann tonight.

Now that Dupnik knows that Loughner was one of them, he will only want Loughner to be charged with littering. You know what with all those shell casings all over the ground.

17 posted on 01/21/2011 4:35:51 PM PST by AmusedBystander (Republicans may have helped drive the economy into the ditch, but Obama is driving it off the cliff.)
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To: True Republican Patriot
How can anybody decide without a timely investigation, that Judge Roll was there as a private citizen!

Exactly, and since they needed to bring charges quickly, there wasn't time to investigate. They can always add those charges later. Meanwhile, they could bring the Giffords and staff charges immediately.

Seriously, you'd probably have to have a hearing to determine whether a federal judge stopping by to say "hi" to a congressperson (which seems to have been the case here) was engaged in an official activity or not. I can imagine lawyers making arguments on either side of that.

If the feds don't bring charges in the Roll murder, the state certainly can and, I expect, will.

18 posted on 01/21/2011 4:41:21 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

I strongly suggest you read post 16 before giving such a magnamous benefit of support to the Obozo Administration and their Minion, Eric Holder! Please remember Eric also threw out the conviction of the New Plack Panther ThugsElection Intimidation in Philly 08!
Are You per chance an Obama Campaign Volunteer?
Just askin! No Offense intended............:-)


19 posted on 01/21/2011 5:01:38 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

My Extreme Apologies to You!
I just got carried away and know clearly now that your Post was Perfect!
To question whether You were an Obama Plant was totally wrong and displaced!
Again,my total and absolute apologies! I am just furious that they have totally ignored Judge Roll’s heroism and basically erased him, just as they have erased all of Obozo’s Biography and falsified so much of His Past!


20 posted on 01/21/2011 5:08:31 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: ventanax5

President Obama during his acknowledgement to Sheriff Dupa of Pima county at the Wellstone II eshortation stated that Judge Rolls was visiting (implying he was not on Federal business) with the Congresswoman but his staff said he appeared on the podium to articulate about the backlog of deportation court cases, thus on federal business.

When Obama did this he jeprodized the Federal case.
Neat eh ?


21 posted on 01/21/2011 5:13:15 PM PST by mosesdapoet ("To punish a province Let it be ruled by a professor " Frederick The Great paraphrased)
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To: Churchillspirit; shhrubbery!; Verginius Rufus
Heard some lawyer on a radio show say that because Judge Rolls was not acting in his official capacity when he was killed, his murder does not qualify as a federal case.

That's a very good point, Churchillspirit -- and I think it goes beyond that.

I'm not a lawyer, but maybe I should be. When the story about the Federal charges against Loughner was announced and the FBI got involved, I speculated at the time that any Federal charges related to the murder of Judge Roll probably wouldn't stand up to legal scrutiny. Not only was he not acting in his Federal capacity when he was murdered . . . but the Federal prosecutor would have a very hard time proving that Loughner even knew who Roll was -- and what his Federal position was -- at the time of the murder.

I would assume that the same holds true for Gabe Zimmerman, too.

22 posted on 01/21/2011 5:17:29 PM PST by Alberta's Child ("If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested.")
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To: True Republican Patriot
Judge Rollis a Federal Judge! Who the Hell is Holder or his minions to discount that Judge Roll was there in His Federal Capacities!!

Loughner was charged with Judge Roll's murder upon being taken into federal custody, but they dropped that charge from the indictment. I have no problem with that - if Congresswoman Giffords had been shot while pushing a shopping cart inside that Safeway (instead of at an organized event), it'd be difficult to say she was injured during the course and scope of her duties.

I don't think this is about Democrats vs. Republicans; it's about the U.S. Attorney not looking incompetent when the defense gets charges dismissed. Let the State of Arizona run a concurrent prosecution - it's the way the system is supposed to work.

23 posted on 01/21/2011 5:18:51 PM PST by Charles Martel (Endeavor to persevere...)
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To: ventanax5

Looks like this case isn’t nearly as cut and dried as they are letting everyone think:

http://www.kgun9.com/global/story.asp?s=13881188

“Why no murder indictments in mass shooting case?

“....he’s only formally indicted for trying to kill[ Gabrielle Giffords and two of her aides. ...

“There are plenty of witnesses ready to say they saw Jared Loughner empty his gun into the crowd at the Safeway.
[Oh yeah?  Name one.]
       
“Investigators say they have high resolution video showing him killing Federal Judge John Roll.  ...
[’Cept no one gets to see it.]

“So far there’s no murder charge, Federal or state. ...

“Both Storts and Piccarreta think any trials will be years away.... .”
[By which time Loughner will have been totally ‘broken’ and will be begging to plead guilty.  So much for the right to a speedy trial.]


24 posted on 01/21/2011 5:21:30 PM PST by starvosan
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To: Charles Martel

My only point is that when You accept the Mantel of a Major Federal Official, You are at work or On Call 24/7! Even if Congressman Giffords was pushing a shopping cart, this flamin madman didn’t care,he only went there because it was known she would be there! If he wanted to kill her in her “Official Capacity!” Why did he murder the innocent 9 year old, or the Judge, or slaughter all the rest there that day?


25 posted on 01/21/2011 5:31:51 PM PST by True Republican Patriot (May GOD Continue to BLESS Our Greatest President :George W. Bush!!)
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To: True Republican Patriot

Judge Roll just didn’t fit the MSM’s “Tea Party Murderer” meme.


26 posted on 01/21/2011 6:03:04 PM PST by 6SJ7 (atlasShruggedInd = TRUE)
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To: mosesdapoet
Interesting point about why Judge Roll was there.

Maybe Obama jeopardized the case unintentionally--you can't expect him to know all the fine points of the law. Of course he did go to Harvard Law School, but that was just to burnish his credentials as a community organizer.

If Holder doesn't have to bother with any cases other than the Congresswoman's, that will give him more time to work on how to make Sarah and Rush accessories to the murders.

27 posted on 01/21/2011 6:22:09 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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To: Verginius Rufus

Obama knew what he was doing. Let’s not let him get away with it.
If you watched the exhortations and remembered the FOX report on any future FR postings about Judge Roll feel free to remind others.


28 posted on 01/21/2011 6:34:58 PM PST by mosesdapoet ("To punish a province Let it be ruled by a professor " Frederick The Great paraphrased)
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To: Lurking Libertarian
“More than 250 federal agents and 130 local detectives have conducted more than 300 interviews to determine the facts.“

Taxpayer money bonfire! Whoo-Hoo!

29 posted on 01/21/2011 8:04:51 PM PST by kiryandil
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To: starvosan

I’m beginning to think this case may be the death of the video stoplight ticket. If they have this all on video, and they STILL need hundreds of LEOs to interview the witnesses [“More than 250 federal agents and 130 local detectives have conducted more than 300 interviews to determine the facts“], then your video is junk, lawdog...


30 posted on 01/21/2011 8:12:46 PM PST by kiryandil
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80 hours x $30/hr x 375 LEOs = ~$900,000

$46 per diem x 14 days x 250 Federal LEOs = ~$160,000

Over a million smackers just on this numbers crunch. Good thing the country's not broke...

Party on, Garth!

31 posted on 01/21/2011 8:20:07 PM PST by kiryandil
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To: mosesdapoet
If it was in his prepared remarks it must have been calculated.

Very little attention has been given to the judge who was killed, and even less to the fact that he saved the life of one of hte other people there by acting as a human shield.

32 posted on 01/22/2011 1:00:35 PM PST by Verginius Rufus
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